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I hypothesized in one of my previous posts that women didn’t come to bais din “because of kovod it wouldn’t pas for them to argue in front of a bais din.”
Actually the precise reason the Meforshim say that we do not disgrace an honorable woman to come to bais din is found in the meforesh that says The same (reason as for a woman) applies to a Chacham for whom it is degrading to argue with Amei ha’Aretz in Beis Din
See kasha’s post for sources
It depends on the way they are talking and acting in the streets, only then is it a problem.
I would think that men stam hanging around in the street would be assur too for different reasons, such as leitzanus, bittul torah ….so all the Tzaddikim that want to limit the women being in the street should realize that we guys dont own the streets and we cant come and go as we please either.
Not a single one of my friends stands outside yakking about how much her clothing xost her. Not my daughters or their friends, either. What kind of shallow and uninteresting people they must be if they have nothing better to discuss with each other.
what better to discuss? weather trends??
I understand that we all like to fix problems in our community, but let’s face it: girls will be girls and boys will be boys. By telling girls “you could talk on this block but not on that block” – you will accomplish nothing.Girls will always congregate and talk no matter what you decide. Not every problem is fixable by assering things, especially if the problem is not a halachic one, such as girls talking on the street. Sometimes, the best thing to do is just close your eyes and look away if something bothers or offends you. Yes, the utopian thing would be if men could go to shul without seeing any girls on the street, but let’s be realistic here, this ain’t utopia. Everyone has to conquer their own personal nisyonos, it’s why we’re on this world.
oomis, Actually I was talking about husband and wife although I see nothing wrong with teenage girls having occasional dicussions about shopping and clothing costs as long as they have other interests as well.
I was talking about husband and wife and I thought other couples might be having the same scenerio like I do with my husband. I don’t see anything wrong since I’m not a compulsive shopper and don’t buy anything extra. But I am very exited with my quality bargains and since it’s not THAT important that I need to run to my freinds to show off my bargains, my husband nebach becomes my korban when I show him what I bought and how much it cost. His eyes glaze over when I do this but he does try to inject some excitement.
But anyway, I enjoy shopping for clothing and enjoy talking about my bargains after a (necessary) shopping spree and I don’t see anything wrong since it’s an occasional occurance and I don’t feel like I am a shallow or uninteresting person because of that.
I think we should stop talking about what kids are doing wrong and start talking about what kids are doing right for a change.
I’m not taking an opinion on this issue.
But…
This is another reason why you should live out of town. I almost never see girls on the street in my home town. I can confidently state that I have never seen so many girls on one shabbos, as the time I was in Bnei Brak.
Poppa, that likely has more to do with the fact that in BB they simply have more girls.
I have to agree with the original poster. However My qualm isn’t with young girls walking around, I’m seeing wive’s everywhere i turn congregating, and not just standing in the street talking, which would be fine if they were just passing by and having a quick chat before going to their destination- but when did it become ok to pull up a chair and plop down right in the middle of the sidewalk with a bunch of other wive’s directly in the path of many passerby husbands ?(I live in Lakewood in a large complex that has an eruv) I find it reprehensible, and every single shabbos i steam over this. Theres no reason why when Im walking hoem from shul I should have to dodge numerous congregations of wives in order to get to my home!
Well said ef613. It is truly sad and a blight upon our communities.
Would the front yard be considered “chatzer”? Then its totally normal (and permissible) for women to be out there.
Theres no reason why when Im walking hoem from shul I should have to dodge numerous congregations of wives in order to get to my home!
Ef,
Would you be just as mad if it were a bunch of men?
The Wolf
sjsinnyc,
the gemara says Kol kvodah bas melech PENIMAH that means inside the house as opposed to outside the house (including chatzer)
In my community actually, there is a weekly shiur that the wives go to and they congregate and shmuz over there, i think it’s the best idea
ef613. I dont live in Lakewood (and I can count on one hand how many times iv’e been in lakewood), but I’m led to believe that there is a Rav in every complex (as you call it). If you truly believe there is a problem, take it up wit the Rav. Presumably he also has to walk by these women on the way to shul, the beis medrash or wherever he may go on shabbos as well, and sees the very things you do and should have no problem comprehending what you are worried about. I am assuming that had the Rav of your complex addressed this “issues” you would have pointed it out.
mbachur, what I learnt in high school (and it was limited mind you, so I’m sort of waiting for GAW to chime in) was that women were normally in the chatzer. They hung their laundry and watched their kids and churned butter and all sorts of things out there.
Wolf- I would not be as mad. I’m a man, and every man has tyva’s. There’s no reason why women should be sitting outside on sidewalks, or in some instances on the street, right in the view of passerby men. It’s sickening to see how low people stoop. It’s one thing to sit on your own porch, but to all sit there and talk and laugh as all men walk by… I can’t take it.
apushatayid- I have spoken to the rav- his wife gives a class to the women of the complex and she basically kills them, and they just don’t listen. They think she’s way to machmir for them so they just shut off
The Rabbi is sometimes powerless to stop these wanton women.
SJS, you’re right. Does anyone think they were sitting an entire day in their one room tents or huts? in fact that’s what I think the Rambam meant with women not going out of their houses more than two times a month. I think he meant they shouldn’t leave their chatzer.
If the women today will not sit outside who will watch the little kids? I see little kids roaming without anyone taking care of them. I don’t think it’s a tznius problem if the mother or older sister is outside watching him.
We need to remember that the denser we build and the bigger families there are the more these issues will crop up.
So women should really have the seichel not to sit on steps of entrances to biuldings or apt., in middle of the sidewalks or talk and laugh too loudly.
But as the saying goes, “if you can’t take the heat get out of the kitchen”. In other words if someone doesn’t like to live in Yentatown, don’t buy a condiminium or a sandwich of a house that’s squashed between tons of people!
ef613 there is nothing halachikly wrong with what those women are doing if you have a problem with it find a different route to take home
“The Rabbi is sometimes powerless to stop these wanton women.”
I have a hard time believing that a group of women will simply ignore something the Rav of the community says, unless of course they have the tacit approval of their husbands, in which case, I would advise the Rav to look for another kehilla.
Ladies lets get real!!! You know whats proper and whats not!!! Don’t take after the goyim!! We are and will continue to be Bas Yisroel!! Earn your title with respect.Go wherever you need to go, but don’t make everyone aware of yourself!!
yechezkel89- every route has thei problem, there’s no one culprit “get together” i can just avoid and walk into my home, wherever you turn in the complex is another grou of wives.
The Rabbi is sometimes powerless to stop these wanton women.
I have a hard time believing that…
I have a hard time believing that you seriously believe that a woman talking in the street is “wanton.”
The Wolf
SJSinNYC
correct, but a chatzer was an enclosed area unlike a front yard
I think men should be a little more realistic and a little more forgiving.
After all the things that women do for you, you can’t fargin them to relax a little on Shabbos and have their own Shabbos menucha? Women need to talk, and getting together in the fresh air with other women is a form of menucha. Are you concerned about what they are talking about? You shouldn’t be. You should dan l’kaf zchus. What frum women, especially Lakewood women talk about, is ear infections, which formula they changed to, their birthing experience, and other varberishe zachin that you really don’t need to know about. Or they might be recited sefer tehilim, which a lot of women groups do, or they might be chatting about some type of chessed they need to accomplish in the neighborhood. Or it might be as light as the latest book they read or the cutest thing their kids said. It is really not necessary to worry about what they are talking about.
Be happy they are grouping together to chat. The other option is forcing YOU to listen to everything they want to talk about.
ef613, I say women should be banned from our communities. That would solve all the problems.
Be happy they are grouping together to chat. The other option is forcing YOU to listen to everything they want to talk about.
Ha, ha. THAT would indeed be the ultimate punishment for men who want all the women “held captive” in their house.
“The other option is forcing YOU to listen to everything they want to talk about.”
Actually, the other option is making you sit outside and watch the kids.
As a man who cares a lot about Tznius issues and his Ruchniyus, Im really sickened by some of the men commenting here. Dont you men realize that shmiras eynayim means watching your eyes? You have no business even looking at your friends wife. If you are truly makpid to only glance for the purpose of not bumping into them you will not have issues with where they congregate and all that. It seems that some of the men here are looking too much and that is what is bothering them. Face it, we live in a Pritzusdik world so even if you never saw a Jewish woman in the streets youd see so much prustkiet just from billboards and the way young non Jewish women walk around.
If you are busy watching your eyes, I dont see how some wives sitting outside with their babies really poses a problem for you unless your Tayvos are out of control and you cant resist looking at women. In that case you are the one who should be indoors and not walking the streets. NOT THE WOMEN!
As aries said, the women have lots of kids and lots of responsibilities and they need to go out to air out and socialize as well as take the kids out to play and they need to be there to supervise. Have some Rachmanus and cut the women some slack, unless you want to take care of the 5 kids under the age of 10 yourself!
wellinformedyid
i agree 100% but when the women do go out they still have an achrayis of being and acting 100% betznius
What halachically defines “chatzer”? I thought it was a personal courtyard area. I am not 100% sure it has to be enclosed.
Where is GAW today?
WellInformedYid AND aries2756
i could not possibly disagree more. Yes women are entitled to a break, they do a lot, and if they want some shabbos menucha there is definitely nice acocmodations for them indoors away from the public eye. A woman’s place has always been in the home, not in the street in the clear visual raneg of ALL passerbyers. WellInformedYid- what does the gemara say about all those women that sat at teh parshas derachim- do you really think it is an acceptabel practice? what twisted world do you live in ???
well informed yid,
you bring up a good point that he has this problem
but you realize tanaim and amoraim had this taavah too
case 1) the grandson of choni hamagel
case 2,3,4) (sorry i’m horrible at remembering names or where it is in the gemara)when the satan comes dressed as a woman either they would’ve been nichshol not for their torah or one bored his eyes out
definitely the solution isn’t that he shouldn’t go outside b/c he has to (daven, learn etc.)
the answer to women being untzniusdik (out in the open) shouldn’t be that it’s your fault for loking at them
In the times of the Gemarah women were not under the same pressure and stress they are under today, so maybe they didn’t need to congregate outside and chat. Maybe sitting alone outside with their babies was enough, or maybe the next home was so far away that it wasn’t an issue.
I believe the root of the problem is related to the chutzpa permiating our dor. When people think they can do whatever they want, this is the result.
“Wanton women”, “sitting at parashas derachim”. This is hyperbole taken to the extreme. This is sickening.
“But anyway, I enjoy shopping for clothing and enjoy talking about my bargains after a (necessary) shopping spree and I don’t see anything wrong since it’s an occasional occurance and I don’t feel like I am a shallow or uninteresting person because of that. “
I am sure that you have lots more to talk about than just your shopping expeditions. The impression you gave was of teenagers.
I find this entire thread to be a bit offensive, btw. Who appointed any of the people in the CR, the outdoors police? Women are not shackled and chained, they most certainly are not WANTON for heaven sakes, for going outside and talking with friends, and all of you who think otherwise have totally lost all sense of reason, in your quest to be tzniusdig. That is not tznius – it is unreasonable expectations.
And another thing, the problem is with the MEN, not the women, so it would seem to be a great deal more fair for the men to stay indoors all day and all night, protecting their eyes from normal sights and sounds, and see how they feel about that restrictive environment after two days.
Women, even more than men, need to get out of their house and talk with other adults, given all the responsibilities they have in the home and with their children. Stop laying this all on the women.
Women were’nt under the same pressure and stress!?
Come on!
HAve you forgotten there were no washing machines, gas ovens, electric heaters, air conditioners, all clothing was sewn by hand, and oh I almost forgot,
No indoor plumbing.
nd you think Women were’nt under “pressure” how about someone nowadys trying to run a home like that for a week?
Ben Levi, a home like what, like a three story mansion with 6 bedrooms and 6 bathrooms? Do you think in the time of the Gemara that was the norm? Or people had as much clothes as today or that everyone changed their clothes as often as they did today? I don’t think so. Women also didn’t work outside the home to support their husbands and they did have help when necessary. So don’t be such a wise guy.
when the satan comes dressed as a woman either they would’ve been nichshol not for their torah or one bored his eyes out
A tzniusdige dressed woman is not the Aatan (ar least I KNOW I’m not the Satan) so it doesn’t apply to them.
In any case since you can’t take care of all the pritzusdige women, especially the barely dressed non-frum women so I really think this is something a man should take a lesson from how to behave( I’m not saying you need to bore out your eyes).
the answer to women being untzniusdik (out in the open) shouldn’t be that it’s your fault for loking at them
And why not?
Years ago women went out when they went to the river to wash their clothes.Women dyed yarn outside in huge pots.Women had to use the outhouses. I could go on and on.
Women did tons of chores outside of their homes.
Ben Levi, years ago the houses were a quarter the sizes that we have today, they had less clothing and overall less materialism ehich required less upkeep. Even their food was much simpler.
Years ago people had time to sit outside and relax at the end of the day. Yoday women, exept for on Shabbos are forced to sit when they need to watch their kids but household chores are never done. Life is more complicated and therefore not easier.
Tznius and shmiras eynayim are two distinct mitzvos. One doesnt excuse the other.
How did this go from teenage girls hanging out together shabbos afternoons in the street, to calling frum women Wanton? A Wanton is not something you order in a Chinese Restaurant. If you pull out your thesaurus, synonyms for the word Wanton include lustful and lewd. Have we lost our collective minds hapazardly tossing around such a term about frum women?
I totally don’t get this. Why are we yelling at the girls? They are allowed to live a life! There’s a lot more to protect yourself from on the internet than from simply seeing girls in the street talking. What about all the untznius ladies walking around practically without clothing? That doesn’t give the men a nesayon? Why are we blaming the girls?
Goyish untznius ladies arent an excuse for Yidden.
I was going to stay out of this becuase the rest of you seemed to be slugging it out pretty good on your own.
But Mischiefmaker deserves an answer:
IGNORE THIS NONSENSE, MM. Our nshei chayil (both current and future) are by and large frum and erlich, regardless of what a few hot-heads say.
Wanton? Lewd? Gimme a break. Halevie I should daven mincha like some of these women.
I had occasion some years back to read the records of the Rome Beit Din from the 1550’s. And I can assure you that women appeared before said Beit Din on many occasions. And from the records clearly worked outside of the home in many cases.
mischiefmaker, to remind us why we still have to fast and cry on Tisha B’av!!!!
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