February 16, 2012 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #602092
A Jerusalem Avreich gives R’ Elyashiv a year of his life.
Ok I just read this article and here are my reactions:
How does one DO such a thing??!
A year? A WHOLE YEAR? I mean , are you serious?!
Either he does not value his moments on this earth, or he is a lunatic. This is my opinion. MAYBE I JUST DON’T GET IT! Somebody enlighten me here.
I know gedolim are protecters and are pillars of the world, yadayadayada, but how does one DO this?? It’s not like his own child or wife, your own flesh and blood…,
Ok so some of you will say he is so machshiv torah and gedolim, and that his love for such jewish spiritual giants are so genuine and strong, so he feels that this is the proper reaction.
y’know, a day, a week, maybe. a MONTH also very difficult for me to fathom. But A YEAR???
I’m sorry, I’m not impressed, I’m astounded, befuddled!
what is your reaction and opinion on this avreich’s deed? Do you think he is on such a high madreiga? or is he being overly-generous, and insane? I really would like to be dan l’kaf zechus, and understand his mind-boggling offer.February 16, 2012 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #892995
I would like to know the SPECIFIC names of the gedolim that approved doing this?
Will, perhaps, a hundred avreichim do the same, so R’ Elyashiv may live to be 201?
I understand the good intentions of this individual, BUT, doesn’t HaSh-m have a plan (and a lifespan) for each of us?February 16, 2012 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #892996
Chavivin Tzadikim B’misasam Yoser Mib’chayeihem. Also, this seems Assur. You are not allowed to actively give up your life to save someone else. It’s a lack of appreciation of the time Hashem gave you and trying to flout His will for the time He gave R’ Elyashiv.February 16, 2012 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #892997
Anyone else on the shopping list?
He talks about it like it’s casual conversation, gets it broadcasted on the media etc. I’m sure he means well, but is in dire need of a refuah shelaimah bisoch shaar cholei yisroel.February 16, 2012 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #892998
We say that you are not allowed to kill one person to save another. The Gemara uses the phrase “who says his blood is redder [i.e. that his life is more valuable]?” This applies even if the one to be saved is a true tzaddik and the one to be killed is a true rasha — nonetheless, we don’t say “kill the rasha to save the tzaddik.”
And yet, this person has decided that he knows that R. Eliyashiv (who should live and be well) is more valuable than himself. Apparently, he must have some insight into Heavenly matters to decide that a year of R. Elyashiv’s life is worth more than a year of his own.
The WolfFebruary 16, 2012 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #892999
So would I. This sounds like suicide. Maybe he only had one year left. Even if he had 120 it’s suicide by gramma.February 16, 2012 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #893000
Seems to me like he could use a good psychologist. I don’t know why YWN would publicize this.February 16, 2012 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #893001
on the ballParticipant
Aside for Odom Harishon giving up 70 years of his life for David Hamelech, I am not aware (but please enlighten me) of any other instance in Jewish history that this has happened.
Gedolim and Talmidei Chachomim have been sick before, Yaakov Avinu was sick, Chizkiyahu Hamelech was sick and many others recorded in Chazal. Yet we never ever hear of this practice.
I do not believe any true Gedolim endorsed this – especially not if it is publicised like this.
If I am wrong please prove it – we live and learn.February 16, 2012 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #893002
I hardly belief this story is true. Even though its being reported on “YWN”.February 16, 2012 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #893003
Rumor has it he got into a fight with his wife, and she donated another 40 years of his life.February 16, 2012 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #893004
so far the discussion has mostly been about whether one should or may do this.
Another point is whether one CAN do this.
The story is reported as though it is a simple matter, like transferring some funds.
That being said, I actually do know of a story where someone offered to give years of his life to a sick godol. I will not tell the story here, only point out that it was a private matter, only told to his family because of something that occurred afterwards.
the story was only made public at his l’vaya many years later and only because of the follow up.February 16, 2012 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #893005
There is a precedent from a well known maaseh in Radin-February 16, 2012 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #893006
The way I heard the story of the Chofetz Chaim was that he gave one (or five) minutes of learning (or tehillim).
What is your source for him giving up 1 (or 5) minute(s) of his life?February 16, 2012 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #893007
littleapple – thank you, i was trying to remember the story this article reminded me of. That story of the chofetz chaim proves how difficult and unacceptable it is to do such a thing.
nitpicker – now you got me curious…..February 16, 2012 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #893008
on the ball- I’d also like to know the names of these “gedolim” who endorsed this. It sounds outright preposterous!February 16, 2012 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #893009
I know of a family, where a 30year old father of seven children was very sick. His 50year old father said he wants to give 20 years of his life (assuming a life is 70 years) to his son. A week later, the father was niftar, and the son lived for another 20 years.February 16, 2012 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #893012
moi aussi – see, THERE I can understand. Any father (hopefully) would do ANYTHING for his kid , even giving up his own life for a son, afterall it is his own flesh ‘n blood.February 16, 2012 10:22 pm at 10:22 pm #893014
computer777 Do you really think the Chofetz Chaim would give only 1 or 5 minutes of tehillim or learning to save the life of his close chaver and Rosh Yeshiva ?! The story was the bachurim all were asking for days, weeks, etc. of their lives to give up for their beloved Rebbi, and they approached the Chafetz Chaim and he thought a long time before answering 1 minute, and he was serious not cynical when he answered. Perhaps we should also be considering it?
Do you believe the Twin Towers could have fallen during the lifetimes of the four Gedolim that were niftar the year before or is it true that Hashem chose to remove them first for His reasons? Maybe the olam should back down from being mzalzel this avreich and think a little about what really might be at stake now?February 16, 2012 10:32 pm at 10:32 pm #893015
Do you believe the Twin Towers could have fallen during the lifetimes of the four Gedolim that were niftar the year before
You (and I) have no way of knowing whether it would have happened or not.
The WolfFebruary 16, 2012 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #893016
I am sorry, I just don’t think this is the proper place.
I heard the story during a drasha and found it involved the grandfather of someone I know slightly. I will mention that
the chofetz chaim was mentioned in this story also.
to repeat though
it was not public until the participants were gone.February 16, 2012 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #893017
Wolf True I don’t know but I believe that Ha Tzur Taamim Paalo and now that we see what occurred, it is extremely reasonable to assume that if there are some individuals whom Hashem values very highly and would refrain from destructive “footsteps” during their lifetime but not afterward than they could be famous Jewish Leaders among others lesser known, do you disagree?February 16, 2012 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #893018
I’m surprised that all these posters only heard about this for the first time this is the first time
I’ve heard it before regarding talmidim of a gadol doing it for the gadol (can’t remember who)
oh and Wolf, you only say don’t save someone else if you’re not the one making the decision (In other words if I can save someone by killing myself then I can do it if I want to, but I don’t have to, I can’t kill you to save someone else because of the reason you provided)
I hope I’m being clearFebruary 17, 2012 1:00 am at 1:00 am #893019
coffee addict: It doesn’t matter who’s making the decision. Even if there is a safeik it is assur. See Choshen Mishpat 426 with piskei tshuva.February 17, 2012 1:33 am at 1:33 am #893020
I’m sure I’ve heard of this before, but I just have one question: does this declaration have any significance whatsoever? I mean, Hashem is the only one who knows how long we have to live and He is the only one who can decide or change it. How are we to know if he really gave of his life? It’s like committing suicide in the respect that we can’t kill ourselves because Hashem owns us. Same thing here- our lives aren’t ours to give to others.February 17, 2012 3:14 am at 3:14 am #893021
coffee addict: It doesn’t matter who’s making the decision. Even if there is a safeik it is assur. See Choshen Mishpat 426 with piskei tshuva.
it’s not so pashut (hence it’s muttar to be a kidney donor) (Iyun R Moshe)
but anyway I don’t remember where I heard it I’ll get back to you when i find outFebruary 17, 2012 3:30 am at 3:30 am #893022
on the ball
still no subtitle…..(sigh)
“Aside for Odom Harishon giving up 70 years of his life for David Hamelech, I am not aware (but please enlighten me) of any other instance in Jewish history that this has happened.”
…and Adom HaRishon regretted it when he was approaching the 930 mark and wanted his 70 years back. Dovid HaMelech referenced this in Tehillim with: Kol HaAdom kozave – I heard on a R’M.M. Weiss tape that HaAdom refers back to Adom HaRishon because he wanted back the 70 years.February 17, 2012 3:33 am at 3:33 am #893023
I don’t understand why everyone is attacking this man’s decision.
By the word of Gedolei Yisroel, the entire yeshivish world in E”Y stopped learning Torah to daven for the life of Rav Elyashiv, who is advanced in years. Rav Elyashiv continuing to live was more important at that time than all the Torah in E”Y combined.
This is the greatness of Rav Elyashiv. Whether this story is true or not, the avreich mentioned in the article has made the decision that he made based on his conclusions and it is his choice. We can’t even start to claim that we understand how “giving years of your life to someone else” works.February 17, 2012 12:22 pm at 12:22 pm #893025
Whether the story is completely true or partly true or not true at all-
Whether one can or can’t do this thing-
Whether there are gedolim that would approve of this man’s “contribution”-
I think that the fact that someone appreciates the importance of a gadol hador’s contribution to the entire klal as being greater than his own protiyus is an incredible maalah. In shamayim it might not be true, but to judge from what we know here, I can’t understand how one could not sympathize with this man’s feelings.February 17, 2012 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #893026
Derech HaMelech – I disagree with you to a certain degree. While I appreciate the selflessness of anyone who gives of himself-especially from his own life- as being an act of incredible graciousness and sacrifice, I’m sorry, but what this avreich offered here borders on absolute lunacy! I’m sure his intentions are totally l’shem shomayim and he really means well- I appreciate that and it is a respectable maalah. But we’re not talking about offering 6 hours , a day or a week. the contribution he is putting on the table is simply over the top, I don’t care how much respect he has to the Godol HaDor.February 17, 2012 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #893027
“Apparently, he must have some insight into Heavenly matters to decide that a year of R. Elyashiv’s life is worth more than a year of his own.”
Yes, a year of R. Elyashiv’s life may be worth 30 years of this fellow’s life, so he ought to be careful about his pledges. Also, is he taking into account the widow and orphans left without a husband and father?February 17, 2012 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #893028
coffee addict: It is indeed assur to donate a kidney if there is a reasonable tzad of sakana. It is generally permitted nowadays because it is not considered a sakana.February 17, 2012 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #893029
I think that the fact that someone appreciates the importance of a gadol hador’s contribution to the entire klal as being greater than his own protiyus is an incredible maalah. In shamayim it might not be true, but to judge from what we know here, I can’t understand how one could not sympathize with this man’s feelings.
Were I to make a statement like that, I would be bashed down with “the Torah isn’t about feelings and mushiness but about halacha and what’s right.” But when it comes to this, all of sudden we get something along the lines of “it’s all right because his heart is in the right place.”
The WolfFebruary 17, 2012 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #893030
I don’t think you are right. as I understand it
one may not give his life for another but one may risk his life to save another. are you sure of your version? I am 90% percent sure of mine.
none of this has anything to do with the topic the thread started with. perhaps davening that hashem take time from your life and give it to another is sensible or silly, possible or not,
but certainly not an issur of suicide. the comparison is rediculous.February 17, 2012 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #893031
BaalHabooze and Wolf:
It seems that I wasn’t clear in what I said. I was trying to say that whether what he did was right or wrong, the feeling in my opinion is right. That doesn’t mean that he may be allowed to act on that feeling halachically. But I think it shows (assuming he didn’t do it for the publicity) that his heart is in the right place.
To give another example, I once heard it asked how one could want moshiach to come. Once he comes we can’t grow anymore, who would want to lose out on 30 or 40 years of opportunity to grow? In this case also, the heart is in the right place- the person wants to continue to grow- but l’maseh we are required to be metzapim l’yeshua.
Again, I’m not saying that what he did was ok because his heart was in the right place. I’m not a gadol baTorah to make such a decision whether he did was ok or not. But I do think that his heart is in the right place.February 19, 2012 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #893032
Derech – Pachad Yitzchok (R”H 7) discusses this paradox in depth, in its basic application – the middah of Yiras Cheit.
About your point – the feeling may be right, but what was being questioned here was whether this is the natural outgrowth of such feelings, or so far out as to be unrealistic and therefore indicate instability.February 19, 2012 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #893033
I’m sorry for being so blunt but not wanting moshiach b/c of ones growth sounds selfish, the point of existence is for Hashem, and if the world reaches moshiach then that’s also for HashemAugust 23, 2012 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #893034
So, does the guy get a refund on the six unused months?
The WolfAugust 23, 2012 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #893035
6 months of Rav Elyashev’s life is equivalent to more than a year of any of ours.August 23, 2012 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #893036
Englishman: you’re stretching to try and make this fit.August 23, 2012 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #893037
6 months of Rav Elyashev’s life is equivalent to more than a year of any of ours
Um…no. That was the whole point of the thread.
Are you going to judge that R. Elyashiv’s blood is redder than this person’s?
The WolfAugust 23, 2012 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #893038
Wolf: I once asked R’ Schachter that. The S’vara shouldn’t apply if a Gadol Hador is threatened unless he’ll kill an Am Ha’aretz. It’s a tough question.August 23, 2012 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #893039
Wolf: I once asked R’ Schachter that. The S’vara shouldn’t apply if a Gadol Hador is threatened unless he’ll kill an Am Ha’aretz. It’s a tough question.
I’m not sure I understand what you’re trying to say. Please explain.
The WolfAugust 24, 2012 12:30 am at 12:30 am #893040
Wolf: The Gemara’s S’vara for why you can’t kill someone even for Pikuach Nefesh. There are some cases where it really shouldn’t apply. What do you do then?August 24, 2012 3:54 am at 3:54 am #893041
If a talmid chochom and a plain yid are drowning at the same time and you can only save one, you should save the T”C.August 24, 2012 3:57 am at 3:57 am #893042
Sam2: When shouldn’t the gemora’s svara apply? And even if it doesn’t apply, what right does a godol hador have to kill someone else to save his own life?August 24, 2012 4:09 am at 4:09 am #893043
Shmoel: Why would it apply if you know that your life is more important? He has an obligation. V’chai Bahem and no reason to override that. It’s a tough question. There has to be something more here.August 24, 2012 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #893044
If a talmid chochom and a plain yid are drowning at the same time and you can only save one, you should save the T”C.
That’s NOT the same case at all. There, both parties are at jeopardy, and, therefore, if you can only save one, save the TC*. Furthermore, in that scenario, you are not actively doing anything to shorten the life of the fellow who is drowning… you are merely not helping him because you are already busy saving someone else.
Here, the other party is not at jeopardy AND you are *actively* doing something to save someone else. A better scenario would be this:
You see a TC is about to be hit by a car. You can’t save him directly, but you *can* save him by pushing someone else into him, causing the TC to be shoved out of the way, even though the other person will be killed.
There is NO WAY that such a scenario is permitted — no matter who the other person is — whether he’s a talmid chochom himself or the biggest rasha.
* and then, I’d say that you save the TC only if saving him is more certain or of equal chance. If, however, you have only a 10% of saving the TC and a 90% of saving the regular yid, you go for the regular yid.August 24, 2012 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #893045
Wolf: The Gemara’s S’vara for why you can’t kill someone even for Pikuach Nefesh. There are some cases where it really shouldn’t apply. What do you do then?
I still don’t get it. When does the rule of not killing an innocent (i.e. to exclude someone who *is* actively attacking someone) to save another life not apply?
The WolfAugust 24, 2012 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #893046
Wolf: There is no rule of not killing an innocent. That rule is a S’vara that who can say that one life is more valuable than another. But what if it’s clear as day that the S’vara doesn’t apply?August 24, 2012 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #893047
But what if it’s clear as day that the S’vara doesn’t apply?
Care to give me a scenario?
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