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do you think its important for a child to have an english name in addition to the hebrew name they will use. I want my children to go to college, or some form of it, and have jobs and work, so do you think it would be unfair to them to have a name like chanoch or nechama?
It is clearly not necessary in today’s society.
But it is still a handicap for the person with the funny sounding/hard to pronounce name.
Weigh the options.
Not any more. My kids do, but if I were going to do it all over, I would list their hebrew names only.
My office has several ethnic people with names much harder to spell / pronounce than the 2 examples you noted.
If they can do it, we should to.
In the previous generation, it was felt necessary. Nowadays, I do not think it is, on the contrary. A Jewish name shows that we are not embarrassed to be identified as Jews. If The President of the United States has a name like Barack Hussein (articulated like “chet/het” in Hebrew), what could possibly be problematic with Chanoch or Nechama?
Irony. With a name like Zalman, you should at least kick it off with a disclaimer like BP Totty did.
Thanks for the laugh. I have an English name, stopped using it many years ago.
I have an English name, stopped using it many years ago.
Let me guess.. Steven?
Its not necessary, but it saves a lot of time when dealing with people not familiar with the names. Its so much easier to say my name is Alan and be done with a telephone agent than to spend a few minutes spelling out Y E C H E Z K E L. No, thats Yechezkel, not Haskel. Thats Y as in Yo Yo, E as in Edward C as in Cholent, what you dont know what Cholent is, thats spelled C as in Chrain, oh forget it, whatever you put after the E is fine by me, lets go on to the next letter….
But in todays society if someone can show up and introduce themselves as Tandighruvisavatsili Ranghichasvidranmiranai, then you can introduce yourself as Yechezkel Schwartz or Levi Yitzchak Cohen.
We call our kids by their english names.
In today’s day and age, its not a huge deal.
My FIL has a hebrew name, a yiddish name and an english name.
Not a handicap any more in the Medinah Shel Chesed.
You missed my point – Zalman IS a secular name.
charlie- I meant a handicap in the sense that the person will be constantly asked to repeat and spell his or her name to every new person. In addition, there are the inevitable misspellings by others on important paperworks and address labels which is annoying. Not a handicap to detriment.
Zalman is the yiddish form of Shlomo. why is that secular?
It’s the German form of Shlomo, actually. Crack open a German language bible from any century.
Yiddish picked it up from the Germanic, along with other names such as Isaac, Hirsch, Ber, etc.
Look at it from the OTHER side…
Any moment Mashiach is going to arrive, and we will all be heading for Eretz Yisrael.
Then the question will be…
What will your kids’ Ivrit speaking classmates do with names like Heather and Brittany and Bruce and Craig?
AinOhd, all Jewish kids that I know of have hebrew names. Unless they have a yiddish name so then what will they do?
Yiddish name is NOT a hebrew name. Hence, why my FIL has 3 names. 1 for use in the US, 1 for use in Yiddish speaking communities and 1 for use for halachic things (like aliyot and stuff).
Personally, I find it much more annoying that I do have an English name. My Hebrew name has a “ch” in it so it’s hard to pronounce, but it’s much easier to correct that than to start remembering when do I go by my English name or when do I go by Hebrew name? It’s so confusing to live with “two” names. All my legal statements – credit cards, business checks… have to be with my English name, but I don’t like calling myself that.
You can still give your kids English names as their legal even if they go by their lashon hakodesh/”real” names on a daily basis.
There are still good reasons to do so, such as the unfortunate reality that we have not yet been redeemed and are, therefore, in galus. Even if it is a more “tolerant” and “multi-cultural” one, including for those of us blessed by Hashem to live in the medina shel chesed.
SJS, yes they do HAVE Hebrew names but are not used to using, hearing, or responding to them.
So when a new friend or teacher is calling “Asher, Asher!” little Arnold probably won’t even turn around (at least not untill he’s been embarrassed enough times for not knowing his own name.)
re: Zalman
i had a personal shaila about my “Hebrew” name which is actually Yiddish.
asked a Posek, he said no need to change it. a Yiddish name has the same status as a Hebrew name, even though much of Yiddish is absorbed from other languages.
AinOhd, with the exception of unaffiliated Jews, everyone I know knows their hebrew name. In all schools I’ve attended, in hebrew classes kids were called by their hebrew names EVEN IF they are called by their english names during secular studies.
Mod80, I know of people who had that same psak with a “non-hebrew” name that they were called by that as their Jewish name even though it wasn’t technically a Jewish name. [It was a hungarian name I think]
http://www.behindthename.com/name/zalman. Doesn’t give the source of Zalman as being German, although much of yiddish does come from German. You can also click on the Related Names link and see all of the names related to Shlomo or Solomon.
LBK, this is within my expertise. You can take my word on the matter.
Mod80- in that case, why didn’t you mention that psak back when we were discussing “Is Yiddish Holy”? Clearly it must be if what you say is true.
For names like Noach or Dovid I would just drop/change a letter otherwise there’s no reason.
Mod80- in that case, why didn’t you mention that psak back when we were discussing “Is Yiddish Holy”? Clearly it must be if what you say is true.
good question. i dont know why i dint mention it, it didnt enter my mind perhaps. perhaps it isnt a proof of the Kedusha of Yiddish, i dont know the reason for the psak exactly. perhaps it is because Yiddish has entered into a kinyan so to speak of belonging to the Jewish People. perhaps Yiddish is Kodesh but on a different madreiga than “Loshon HaKodesh”
these things are certainly beyond my little daas.
Re: Yiddish names
There are three types of Yiddish names, as I see it. One is slang-like, such as “Mudke” (Mordechai) and “Yankev” (Yaacov). The other two are the secularized version of the Hebrew name itself, either an alternate pronounciation (such as “Isaac” and “Zaloman”) or a translation of the Hebrew name (such as “Hirsch” for Tzvi and “Ber” for Dov).
As far as the first type goes, I’m not sure how a nickname became a real name, but I’ve heard men called up for aliyos as “Mudke ben Yankev” or the like.
The latter two types are not Hebrew names but secularized versions, based on the lingua franca at the time. We have certainly adopted both types as “official” Jewish names that are given at brissim, but that doesn’t change the fact that they are straight out of a Lashon Zar. If you were given the name Herschel or Zalman at your bris, all it means is that your “Hebrew” given name is a secular name.
NTTAWWT
ETA: The point is that Zalman = David. For some reason David is a popular given name by goyyim and yiddin only use Dovid, and Solomon is not a name used by goyyim but it is used by yiddin.
I don’t have an English name and my name has the “cha” sound in it and yeah some people can’t pronounce it and it takes until they say my last name when I turn around because they come up with weird sounds instead of it. Overall though, a lot of people nowadays can say “cha”, you’d be surprised.
Another option is to give them a middle name that’s easy to pronounce. Then the kid can just be call me (fill in the blank) instead, it’s easier.
R. Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (as other Zalman’s) are called up to the Torah as such. That seems to be a better raya than above.
perhaps it is because Yiddish has entered into a kinyan so to speak of belonging to the Jewish People
To people who only speak English this may sound plausible.
im really not sure what you mean to imply squeak, if anything.
but whatever it is, as i said, i dont have the answer to your original question and was trying to do the best i could with some perhapses.
i dont know the true status of Yiddish, and i highly doubt if anyone who posts here does.
very helpful helpful
it was always my understanding that names dont have to be in hebrew we are just accustomed to doing it that way (shelo sheno shmum)
Moderator-80
Mr. 80
very helpful helpful
That that is is that that is not is not is that it it is
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Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
There’s also the mentality that having a secular name on papers will make it easier to escape…If you do go for a secular name, you may want one similar to your child’s name, and do be sure that all schools in which your child will go by the Jewish name also have the secular name on transcripts for when you need paperwork for driver’s permits, etc.
riddle riddle in riddle thread
Bison from Buffalo, New York, who are intimidated by other bison in their community also happen to intimidate other bison in their community.
I work in Corporate America. Let’s see some nice Indian names. They don’t seem to ask if their Hindu names will be hard to pronounce or write, like Yechezkel. Gundaverapu. Not made up, it’s a real name. Shreedevi Gunjati. And you think Robert is better than Reuven?
The Uheler Rov in Hungary, Binyan Dovid, once said in a speech. The Hungarian Jews before WW2 always gave secular names. This upset him. He said, Yakov Oveenu gave us a brocho: Hamaloch hagoel osi, yevoreich es haneorim, v’yikorei bohem shmi v’sheim avosai. The angel who always protected me and redeemed me, should bless the Jewish children. When you send someone a letter, you need the correct name and address. Yakov said, I’m sending you an angel to protect you. But he’ll only know who you are if you call him by my name and the names of my father and grandfather, Yiddishe names, not Robert or Tibor.
I really didn’t intend for my name to become a topic for discussion. I regard the Zalman part as Hebrew (certainly Jewish)for practical purposes and not secular.I have not found anyone who heard this name and regarded it as secular. No matter, it’s my name and we can leave it at that.
On the lighter side regarding hebrew names, one can easily find on the net the famous audio piece of a Jew asking the operator for the phone number of Chaim Mordechai Brecher. To die of laughter…
The founder and owner of the famous investment firm Sanford C. Bernstein became a baal teshuva and had everybody call him Zalman from then on. The Brecher piece has got to be one of the most hilarious ever.
theprof1:
1- The Indian names are a perfect example. So are Chinese names. Everyone is 100% accepting of them, yet they make communicating very difficult (I can give examples if none are obvious). The Chinese do adopt Americanized names, unlike the Indians.
2- Nice drush, but not pshat.
A “jewish name” does necessarily have to be in a ???? language.
We find names in Chazal from other langauges other than ???? ????? & Aramaic (which does have some Kedusha) one example ????? ?????
and her son Munbaz who were Gerei Tzedek and loyal Jews. The Greek name Alexander was adopted by the Jews. In later years we find Gedolei Yisroel with Arabic names like ???”? ??????? ???? ?????
All through history Jews spoke Judaized dialecets of their places of Galus. We find quite a few persian words in the Megilla.
Just as ?? ???? ?? ????? does not mean ???? ????? exclusively so does ?? ???? ?? ??? not mean ???? ????? exclusively. I would guess that an American Jew naming his child Irving (maybe it should be Oiving) would not be any different than Shprintza, Gitel,Garzia, Berel, Zalmen ttc.
im lucky, my hebrew name is very easy to pronounce
The Prof:
You said:
Quote:I work in Corporate America. Let’s see some nice Indian names. They don’t seem to ask if their Hindu names will be hard to pronounce or write, like Yechezkel. Gundaverapu. Not made up, it’s a real name. Shreedevi Gunjati. And you think Robert is better than Reuven?The Uheler Rov in Hungary, Binyan Dovid, once said in a speech. The Hungarian Jews before WW2 always gave secular names. This upset him. He said, Yakov Oveenu gave us a brocho: Hamaloch hagoel osi, yevoreich es haneorim, v’yikorei bohem shmi v’sheim avosai. The angel who always protected me and redeemed me, should bless the Jewish children. When you send someone a letter, you need the correct name and address. Yakov said, I’m sending you an angel to protect you. But he’ll only know who you are if you call him by my name and the names of my father and grandfather, Yiddishe names, not Robert or Tibor.
First, that’s your experience, not mine. I know a Chinese attorney whose name is Na. That’s quite easy to pronounce but she goes by Linda. Why? To fit it and not get distracted with a conversation about her name.
(Repeat the following in an Indian accent: “Microsoft technical support. How may I help you? My name is Steve.”)
Also, regarding the quote you attribute to “the Uheler Rav,” I assume you are referring to the rav of the place in Hungary formally called Satoraljaujhely. My mother’s family came from there. Needless to say, they all had both Hebrew and Hungarian names which might give you an indication how this IDEA (not Halacha at all) was received.
WHew am I glad my name is benzion chaim shlomo meshulam zusia. That’s an easy name for any Episcopalian to pronounce and remember.
I heard the vort of the Binyan Dovid from his son, the Veitzener Rov of Chicago, and then again from the Veitzener’s son Harav Zalmen Leib Meisels of Seagate. I also heard it from my brother in law’s uncle who lived in Uhel and heard the vort as a young boy. He told me that the vort was very not accepted in Uhel. As Homeowner said, they all had both Hebrew and Hungarian names and most of them actually called each other by their Hungarian names. That’s what bothered the Binyan Dovid. Having the name Robert or Susan used so that your gentile co-workers won’t gag on your name Reuven or Soroh isn’t wrong. Wrong is having your friends in shul and your family call you bu your secular American name. Shprintza and Gracia and Berel and Zalmen, although not Biblical, are yiddishe names. Irving, Stanley and Howie are not.
“Irving, Stanley and Howie are not.”
I’m glad Sy, Hy, Sadie and Ida made the cut. You had me nervous there for a moment.
My ex-husband had only his Hebrew name and it is Avrom. I constantly received phone calls for Abner and Ivan and Avery. Once after 3 of these calls in a short period of time, I told my father in law that the fact that he had not given his son a secular name, as well, had done him a great diservice. In the age that he grew up, I truly believe this – he was an underachiever in both school and the working world. I can’t blame all of this on his name, but certainly some of it.
FYI – I used to have a Chinese friend who had an “English” name. She told me that the educated Chinese and those in the business world (in North America) add an English name to facilitate business dealings. The less educated – she used the example of Chinese restaurant workers – usually do not adopt another name.
re: theprof1
This does not mean one should not give a legal name other than the Lashon Hakodesh “real name”. Rather, one should, in that view, be known by his “real” name. That would, then, allow the malach to look out for him. Again, this story you mentioned does not imply any problem with merely having an English name, only that one should use his “real” name.
My 12 beautiful, precious grandchildren only have Hebrew names and only use their Hebrew birth date. My children and their spouses also only use their Hebrew birth date. One of my sons-in-law went to register for a course and they asked him his birth date…he gave them the Hebrew date..the clerk [Jewish] said now tell me your REAL birth date..meaning his secular one. He didn’t know it.
Be proud of your Hebrew name and birth date……………
We gave different legal names to two of our children who have Hebrew names that contain a “Ches”, but they never go by that name except when they’re at the doctor. Of course that will change once they get older and need to fill out legal documents.
Here’s a story that I found amusing-
Shortly after my son turned three we went for a walk and the wind blew his yarmulka off without him realizing it. I called his name to get his attention and then a voice from behind me said, “Hey Chaim, your yarmulka fell off”.
I turned around to see that it was an African American who said it. He had a smirk on his face so I asked him how he was able to pronounce it.
“During the week I’m the bus driver in a Hasidic school. The kids always ask me to stop by their Shteeble on Shabbos for some cholent and a L’Chaim.”
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