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If you go to a Tzdekah event and its likesly the money raised is being used to pay the expenses of the event, is it tzedkah.
Like for instance you go to a Avrham Fried charity concert and the ticket prices basically go to pay for the room rental and Avrham Fried. Is it still Tzdekah?
When going to the event you didnt realize this was the case, but when you see the room rental, food and entertainment it becomes clear
I don’t get it. You mean that ALL the money is being used for the event? Then why are they bothering to hold the event.
(In other words, why are you so cynical about people?)
It ain’t necessarily so. Some of the services, ie the performer, caterer, printer, may be donated or provided at a reduced price.
Charities use this vehicle because it works. It gets attention, and many people open their hearts, and their wallets, when they are being wined, dined, and entertained.
If you are questioning whether your ticket price is considered tzedaka for the purposes of calculating maaser, or a charitable tax deduction, check with your lor (local orthodox rabbi) or accountant. Often a fund-raising dinner will indicate that the value of the dinner is $$$, with the balance considered a charitable contribution.
In Dumptian expression, that is a solar tragecomical photosynthesis.
Tzeddaka has advertizing costs. Is it not supposed to be payed off? Do you really knock on the doors of Tzeddakos and beg them to take money?
Then, of course, there’s the famous story with R’ Chaim Volozhiner (IIRC) collecting money for the yeshiva.
One year, he needed to hire a wagon and driver. One donor, who had given generously in the past, asked R’ Chaim how he knew that his money would support Torah and not pay for the horse’s food.
R’ Chaim answered him that just as for the building if the Mishkan, the money went towards items with more kedusha according to the intentions of the giver, so too with supporting the yeshiva. If one’s intentions are pure, his donation will support Torah. If his intentions are tainted, the money will go toward feeding the horse.
Lets say you make up random numbers because you like thinking ill of people, does that mean you should or shouldn’t eat cheerios for breakfast?
If you dont trust the group soliciting money, check them out. use a site such as charitynavigator dot org or do the due diligence yourself.
of course, if one wants to be cynical, we can turn this around on the “donors” and “supporters” as well. Must the organization bribe you with food and music in order to get a donation from you, why cant you be altruistic and just write a check.
They were not Random numbers, I have knowledge what room rentals , food and cleanup costs are.
Sure, let’s just go back to:
If you are going to charge $20 a person for admission and lets say you get 100 people thats $2000
Certainly there is value is running an event that makes no money , but gets your name out as the bigger money might give..
Asking people to just write checks doesnt work otherwise Ooorah would not see a need to run a Million Dollar Raffle
Then I think you’ve answered your own question.
In other words, it is ok to be cynical about the organizors but not the donors? You yourself just wrote that the only way to get people to give, is to entertain them or dangle million dollar carrots. Either apply your cynicism equally or not at all. why are you taking it out on organizations?
ZD – without commenting on the topic at the moment, I would bet that if you had signed in under a different username and posted exactly the same you would have received very different responses.
I agree with Syag. The question could be construed as an attack on tzedakah organizations, or as a legitimate question about prioritizing one’s donations.
SYAG,
Edited for harshness
And FTR, I do not think too many people go to a concert with the intention that they are making a charitable contribution nor are they entitled to take a deduction for it or use ma’aser for it.
Popa’s first response was the most accurate.
My mother started a chessed organization 25 years ago that ran entirely on volunteerwork. Not a penny went toward anything but clients needs. There was a LOT of money going through each year but it was still small scale. They ordered food and had it delivered to an alley or shul hours before it was packed to be delivered. Because there was no warehouse, it had to be bought based on schedule, not price.
In order to expand and provide peole with more food more consistently, a warehouse needed to be purchased and manned. Someone needed to be available to distribute the food. In order to serve more people, money needed to be invested into the organization.
Even though it is in a sense “my own” organization, if I found out that the amount going to administrative costs was beyond a certain percentage, or that things were being purchased/distributed irresponsibly, I would not continue there.
Though you need to spend money to make money, it doesn’t have to be fancy amenities for fancy people unless the profit justifies it.
The only difference would be Syag’s comment. So we have no opinions. We type with our knees. This issue has been brought up time and again. Sometimes it is about Kupat Ha’ir, the big bad, and sometimes it is more general. My answer is the same all the time. Do you think insulting 10 people is a more worthy cause than responding to 1? This last question applies to not only this conversation.
I really don’t get the problem with helping to pay for a fund raising event. If all the money would go to the Tzeddaka that means that the event was donated. Was the donor giving Tzeddaka or paying for a hall, music and food?
HaLeiVi – I don’t think I really understood your response, but in answer to your last post, I don’t disagree with you, but I think it is a legitimate question. When I know that people pay a certain amount for a hall, PR, a performer plane ticket etc. I have ZERO issues with it. But when they make a last minute first class ticket and the performer (NOT Avraham Fried) says he’s bringing his wife and they feel an obligation to get him custom made amenities I cannot agree that this is an appropriate way to spend funds.
I was just told by someone that they would very much like to buy real silver candlesticks for a certain family because they feel awful that this family uses silver plate. The family is fine with their candles, they would rather have new shoes. But this person only wants to buy silver candlesticks because that is important to her. For an individual to make that choice, I say that’s fine. But if an organization behaved that way I would consider pulling my support.
nishtdayngesheft: Actually, i think people do specifically go to certain events over other events because it is run by a charity organization. Using ma’aser at these events is usually calculated by how much one would spend for that item or concert seat subtracted by how much one actually spends. For example, choosing to go to hershey park when it is rented out by the Lancaster Mikvah on pesach/sukkos as opposed to going to a different amusement park.
Daas Yochid: loved that story! Thanks for sharing!
If you feel that an organization isnt using its funds correctly, thats your prerogative. There are many other organizations that could use money too. (as i’m typing this, it feels so wrong to say that…)
Miritchka, thank you.
A few responses, as this is part of what I do for a living. DOn’t know if it is the same elsewhere, but where I live, our CRA (Like your IRS) determines an acceptable proportion of expenses to be spent on administration. It has an acceptable level, a “flagged” level, and an unacceptable level. I imagine the IRS is the same.
As for events, our system has a component called “value advantage” so that any proportion of a donation at an event that gives some value to the participant is not tax receiptable. OTOH, as someone said above, if there are sponsors who have covered all of the costs of an event, this does not apply.
The IRS works the same way. Organizations are supposed to work the same way. I recently received a receipt for a donation as I attended a dinner. The receipt stated my total “donation” of $250 and the tax deductible portion of $195 since I received a meal that they valued at $55.
As for those who attend the HASC concert (nothing against HASC – just that their concert is one of the better known venues of entertainment in this genre of tzedaka giving), lets be realistic, how many people go to the “hasc concert” and how many people are attending a “hasc fundraising event”. I’m not blaming the organizers or the attendees, just saying lets not fool ourselves here. How many concert goers would give even $18 a year to support hasc if they didnt go to the concert.
Miritchka:
“Actually, i think people do specifically go to certain events over other events because it is run by a charity organization.”
That is probably so and what the charity wants. However, that is very different from attending a concert solely as a donation.
Yichusdik
“A few responses, as this is part of what I do for a living. DOn’t know if it is the same elsewhere, but where I live, our CRA (Like your IRS) determines an acceptable proportion of expenses to be spent on administration. It has an acceptable level, a “flagged” level, and an unacceptable level. I imagine the IRS is the same.”
The IRS has not written what is in fact an appropriate level of Program expenses vs. administration and fundraising. And the truth is, it varies tremendously by the type of organization and legitimately so.
Some of the rating agencies have established percentages, but that may be arbitrary anyway. They do not seem to account for the differing type of charitable organization. (According to accounting rules, the costs of leveraging volunteers and in-kind gifts is a fundraising cost.[ FASB ASC 958-720-45-9&10 and TIS Section 6140.11] Accordingly, an organization that utilizes a lot of volunteer time and uses a significant amount of their paid resources to get the volunteers involved, would have a very high fundraising percentage if they report correctly. Think a Big Brother type of organization. Alternatively a free loan organization could have very high administration costs because the loans are not an expense and typically revolve) And there is tremendous inconsistency in how that percentage is determined or calculated. In NYS, EO 38 attempts to define a percentage but that is up for interpretation would only apply to those receiving funding from specific state agencies.
However, what is clear is that that the cost of fundraising events is excluded from these calculations and that the revenues from fundraising events is reported net of expenses on the 990. In fact, the contribution portion of special events (amounts above the benefit received by the participant)is not included in the fundraising event income and therefore often the event(s) will report a net loss (on part VII of the 990 and on schedule G, though you can reconcile the amounts).
Either way, the costs of the events are not included in the calculation fundraising percentage of the organization by any of the rating agencies.
“If you are going to charge $20 a person for admission and lets say you get 100 people thats $2000 minus $500 for room, Minus $500 for refreshments Minus $300 for entertainment Minus $200 for room clean up. leaving you with $500. And people worked really hard to get people to go “
There is no way to respond to such a scenario, because it is bogus.
The “ifs” have no relation to reality. They would no exisit in one instance.
ZD like to bring in HAC. Ok, HASC does not pay $500 for the room, but they do not get $20 either nor do they have 100 participants.
Most parlor meetings do not pay for the room and while they get $20 from some, they also get the $500, and $180 checks as well and some get more too.
“So if I paid $36 to get in , they send me a letter for the IRS for my $36 donation”
Thats great. The bigger question is, absent a chance to win a prize or enjoying an evening out, would you consider donating even 36 cents to the organization? If not, the cynicism you display towards the organizations that run these events could be turned right back at “donors” such as yourself.
I rarely see jewish entertainers Like MBD or Fried do soley for-profit open venue. They almost always do Benefits and their for-profit venues are private events like weddings and Bar-Mitzvahs.
As an FYI, there are very strong Halachic reasons why this is the case. Ayin in the sugyah of Zimrah.
“I rarely see jewish entertainers Like MBD or Fried do soley for-profit open venue. They almost always do Benefits and their for-profit venues are private events like weddings and Bar-Mitzvahs.
So if you want to see MBD or Fried you have to go to the charity event. “
I do not understand what your point is.
Does it bother you that a charity is benefitting from something that people would pay for anyway?
Should a person who would by a ticket to a concert not do so because a charitable institution is also benefitting?
Your position seems to be that because a charitable organization is benefitting one should not partake, even though they would if it were solely a commercial venture.
There is another thread from a long time ago on this topic. It is important for organizations and charities to spend money on things that one may see as ‘not the way a charity should spend my hard earned money’. However, I have to admit, and i know i’m not the only one to do so, that when a charity gives you a “free” prize for a donation of $___, i will probably give that amount to the organization even if it was higher than the amount i would give. It may even be more than an organization that is dear to me. Its a shame and something i need to work on. But the bottom line is that it works. And people fall for it.
Zehavasdad: Hasc makes a lot more than just $10,000 at the concerts.
Zd,
“the charities try to do events that get a higher take. “
So do you have an idea? Because I am sure the organizations would love to make more money as well.
In case of the concerts though, they are really just selling something for a profit. Perhaps you should tell a store not to sell something for a profit as well.
And as I said before, people may justify paying a higher price for a concert where the money goes for a charity, but they are paying for the concert they want to hear.
And if Fried did a concert where he would get the gate receipts and concession sales. He would net substantially more than the 10,000
What HASC makes and what Fried charges is really nobody’s business. If you must know audit their books. Otherwise you are casting aspersions on organizations and entertainers alike for no reason at all.
I’m pretty sure singers at the HASC concert do it for free. They charge a lot of money for tickets (around 100 a ticket) so I’m pretty sure the tzedaka is a factor when people go, although I don’t know for sure. All concerts have sponsors so they end up making a lot of money.
The old mailing system doesn’t really work anymore. “The children are waiting for you” doesn’t move people to respond promptly anymore. It is just another envelope among many others. Instead of closing down and giving up, Tzedaka organizations hired marketing companies who arranged, for a hefty price, some expensive event that hopefully brings back more than they’ve spent.
Should the marketing company, entertainer or hall do it for free? Obviously not, since this is a big chunk of their business. If they do it for free, however, that is no-doubt Tzeddaka. If you pay for it, that is Tzeddaka as well.
Worked with Fried last year. A pleasure to work with, has performed for us several times, and an inspiring individual.
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