December 12, 2012 5:16 am at 5:16 am #913654
DaasYochid -“However (and I may surprise some with this opinion), I think that even if she never intended to cover her hair, her geirus is still valid. We don’t need to find a legitimate heter to leave the hair uncovered, all we need to do is be able to assume that she doesn’t think it’s a violation of halacha. That’s reasonable to assume, since so many shomrei Shabbos ladies don’t wear a head covering.
Tosofos in Shabbos (68A bd”h Ger – http://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=2&daf=68&format=pdf) say that even if someone doesn’t know about Shabbos, it doesn’t passul the geirus.
I was present when this very shaila was presented to an adam gadol; there was a lady who was m’gayer with no intention to cover her hair (she converted with her husband). The godol affirmed the geirus.”
DyafMaven brought up this point already. I quickly said that there is a difference between the two cases. But now I’ll elaborate. In the case of Shabbos there was no way for him/her to know about Shabbos because she/he lived amongst Goyim. Here in this case she lives amongst Jews, but the Jews don’t follow Halacha. So is this called being Mekabel all the Mitzvos or not? It could be that the case with the Odom Godol was where she didn’t have knowledge about covering her hair due to where she lived. In this case the lack of knowledge is based on s/o telling or informing her or her observation of MO Jews that there is no Chiyuv to cover her hair. Maybe wrong knowledge is worse than No knowledge at all and her Geyrus isn’t good? Ask the Shaila to this Godol, if you won’t post his name so that I could ask him.December 12, 2012 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #913655
Health, he is no longer alive. This was in an out of town kollel community and the kollel was involved in the geirus, so she certainly saw the kollel wives’ hair covered.December 12, 2012 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #913656
DaasYochid -“Health, he is no longer alive. This was in an out of town kollel community and the kollel was involved in the geirus, so she certainly saw the kollel wives’ hair covered.”
But I’m sure she saw many more Jewish women who didn’t cover their hair. Maybe she thought it was a Chumra? I’m not saying that in my case -it’s definitely an invalid Geyrus, but it could be a different case than the one you witnessed. Over here they hold it’s ridiculous to cover their hair -it’s not even a Chumra. So anybody want to ask this Shaila to s/o who deals with Geyrus?December 13, 2012 1:57 am at 1:57 am #913657
Health, I see no chilluk between thinking it is or is not a chumra.December 13, 2012 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #913658
Health “Until then my posts are the ending logic.” You sound pretty sure of yourself. Why are you the one to decide? You mean nobody else’s logic can be right? I don’t know if you saw my previous post, but I did say that I neither agree or disagree with you. (you had said that if I disagree with your posts, I should post a logical argument against them.)
So I am just wondering – If you saw a married woman who was born Jewish, and she was not wearing a sheitel (or any head covering), would you not consider her to be frum? Would you not consider her to be Jewish? I am talking about someone who does keep Shabbos, kashrus, etc. I don’t mean a frei person.
IMHO – if someone converts via a recognized orthodox conversion, that person is Jewish. Of course assuming he/she had the right intentions at conversion – ie: keeping the mitzvos. I know you will say that the woman you saw is not keeping the mitzvos because she isn’t covering her hair. There have been and are so many frum people who did not and don’t cover their hair. I don’t think it takes away from the fact that they are Jewish and frum.
Can you honestly say you keep every single mitzvah that you are supposed to? I don’t know if any of us can. That’s why there’s teshuvah. That’s why there’s the davening we have on Rosh Hashana and Yom Kipuur.December 14, 2012 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #913659
This is a halachic shaila, which has nothing to do with our perception of who’s “frum” and who’s not.December 14, 2012 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #913660
DaasYochid: Yes I hear you. But what I’m saying is I’m sure we don’t hold every halacha we are supposed to. Should we? Of course. But does it make one not frum or in the case of a giyores – not Jewish? I’m just trying to understand why she would not be considered Jewish. A Jewish (born Jewish) person who doesn’t hold all halachos is still considered Jewish.
And I learned that if someone is converted according to halacha, they are Jewish forever, even if they “convert back” to their original religion. See what I’m saying? That’s what’s confusing me.
Maybe you or someone can clarify this for me.December 14, 2012 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #913661
Halachic geirus requires kabolas mitzvos. If someone wishes to convert without accepting even one halacha, even one whose non-observance would not make his wine assur, his geirus is invalid. By definition, the geirus was not according to halacha.December 14, 2012 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #913662
DaasYochid: Ok. I get the part that if someone wishes to convert w/o even accepting one halacha, the geirus is invalid. But we really don’t know the whole story with this particular woman. Maybe it’s hard to take upon herself everything at once, but she does have intention to cover her hair eventually (if indeed it wasn’t really covered to begin with- as people mentioned- some sheitels are really hard to tell). If this is the case, then what would be the status of her geirus? Kosher or not?
BTW – this is quite an interesting topic.December 14, 2012 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #913663zahavasdadParticipant
What if someone says Ill convert but I wont give up Haagan Daas Ice cream (Not Chalov Yisroel) or Ill convert but I wont give up Football
Or Ill convert but I wont give up the internet or my smart phone(Gedolim have ruled smart phones and internet are assur)
Of course other communites dont hold by theseDecember 14, 2012 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #913664
Zdad: I guess that might be different. I don’t think cholov yisroel is halacha. Nor is watching football, smart phones, and internet (which is what we are on right now ;))
However, covering hair is apparently halacha.December 17, 2012 4:01 am at 4:01 am #913665
Gefen, as I’ve said, I believe the geirus is valid, but the shaila Health brought up is a legitimate shaila.
I don’t know how we pasken if a ger intended to eventually keep everything, just not immediately.December 17, 2012 4:04 am at 4:04 am #913666
On all of the issues. you raised, I think there are poskim who are meikil, so the geirus would be ok.December 18, 2012 1:05 am at 1:05 am #913667BustercrownParticipant
I know a giyoress who did not separate from her Jewish husband while she was supposedly going thru the conversion process, which was required of her, and the Rov doing the giyur believed they were indeed separated when they were supposed to be. . Is her conversion valid?December 18, 2012 2:30 am at 2:30 am #913668
Bustercrown – A person doing an Aveira and knows it’s an Aveira doesn’t mean they didn’t accept upon themselves not to do Aveiros. A Shaila should be asked nonetheless.
My starting this topic was to bring out these type of Shailos that occur with Geirus -it by no means was to come out with what to do Halacha Lemasseh. This you should ask to your Rabbi to know what to do in real life.
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