Giyoress or Not?

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  • #913603
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    But there’s no halachic basis for rejecting converts who say they accept everything (and who have a sponsoring rabbi to vouch for their observance).<e/m>

    First I thought you were saying we are supposed to accept as a ger anyone who “says” they will accept everything. That is obviously not correct.

    But then you qualify by saying “and who have a sponsoring rabbi to vouch for their observance”, by which I suppose you are adding that we are supposed to also determine that they probably are going to actually accept everything.

    So then we agree. And we should also agree that if a certain rabbi has been vouching for candidates and is obviously terrible at it based on his track record, we should stop accepting his vouchers.

    #913604
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Midwesterner, Rabbeinu Tam says that a karkafta Delo Manach Tefillin is only if that was done rebeliously.

    #913605
    yytz
    Participant

    Popa, well, theoretically if there was a mentor and every one of his gerim was filmed eating a cheeseburger at McDonalds the day after the conversion, then a beis din would stop taking gerim mentored by that mentor seriously. But of course nobody’s that bad. I think every beis din should consider each ger on a case by case basis. I suppose they could keep in mind the history of the mentor if in the unlikely event they have reliable information (not just rumors) about the gerim he’s mentored. Retroactive invalidation of all a mentor’s gerim should never occur. Individual gerim should never be “invalidated” unless it’s 100% clear they were flagrantly and publicly violating mitzvos (as generally practiced in their Orthodox community) immediately after conversion.

    Aurora’s right. This kind of thread doesn’t belong in the CR. Who gave anonymous internet commenters the right to be armchair poskim trying making the world more difficult for gerim (who already have it hard enough as it is)? We should be very careful about the mitzvah not to oppress a ger, because gerim are more sensitive and often have difficult experiences in offline life as well.

    #913606
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    So we agree that the beis din must make a case by case determination of whether the candidate intends to keep the entire torah.

    So at what point would you say a beis din should invalidate itself, and realize that they are not doing a good job of it?

    For example, if I was trying to build washing machines, and many of my washing machines didn’t work, at some point I would determine that either the method I am using is bad, or that I am simply not good at making washing machines.

    So, what rate of “wrong results” do you think a beis din should accept before they determine that they are doing a bad job and should get out of the business?

    Suppose that 10% of their geirim do not stay frum? Is that too much?

    How about 20% (1 in 5)?

    How about 30% (1 in 3)?

    What is your tolerance level for that? Tell us.

    #913607
    gefen
    Participant

    Health – To quote one of your posts, “You should learn that there is a Chiyuv of Danning s/o L’caf Zecus.” So maybe be dan l’caf zechus this lady in the restaurant. Just sayin’…..

    morahmom – “Sorry, but you’re wrong. Not that I myself hold that this is ok, but many women show some hair while covering the rest and it blends in. Trust me – you would never know.” I agree totally. Sometimes it is very hard to tell.

    Another thing. Maybe this woman is just not comfortable covering her hair yet – IF she even plans to at all. But that’s really none of our business.

    #913608
    ready now
    Participant

    Health- maybe the “husband” was converting too.

    The discussion by the OP was about the hair covering -it was not trying to insult anyone at all.

    #913610
    nem621
    Member

    the practicality of this is very little so i do not know why even waste time with this but anyway

    i think that we should try to look at it in a favorable manner

    there is a story i heard that a MO couple was walking in a very charedi town in E”Y and a man threw bleach at her “for not wearing a wig” in a anger the husband took the very natural looking wig filled with bleach from his wife and threw it on the ground promising that she will never wear a wig again.

    why do i mention this story? because it shows how natural wigs can be and maybe you are very sure but in the sake of favorable judgement i think you can say that maybe you saw wrong

    #913611
    Health
    Participant

    aurora77 -I was talking unlikely in terms of it being something to consider as far as Halacha.

    #913612
    Health
    Participant

    Mr. Doniel- No Geirus should Not be something to be Meikel on. And that’s why we Passel Conservative and Reform Geirus because we don’t trust them that they are doing things K’halacha. If certain “Orthodox” Rabbis act the same way -we should treat their Geirus the same way.

    #913613
    Health
    Participant

    yytz -“Individual gerim should never be “invalidated” unless it’s 100% clear they were flagrantly and publicly violating mitzvos (as generally practiced in their Orthodox community) immediately after conversion.”

    So what do you consider s/o Not covering her hair -A Mitzva?

    I’d hesitate to Passel s/o eating a cheeseburger more than s/o who doesn’t cover their hair. Why? Because e/o who is Megayer K’halacha knows that you can’t eat Treif, and probably just Chapped a Taivah, but in certain communities they think you don’t have to cover their hair. So this person who didn’t cover her hair probably never thought she had to -so she never had Kabbolas of all the Mitzvos!

    #913614
    midwesterner
    Participant

    That wasn’t even remotely all my point. (Ayein b”Rush Limbaugh, demonstrating absurdity by being absurd.)

    My point was that surely Rabbeinu Tam would also recognize that Rashi Tefillin are fine and kosher. Yes, using the expression Karkafta etc was over the top, but saying that Rabbeinu Tam held that his zaida Rashi was not yotzei tefillin his entire life b’shogeg is almost equally absurd!!

    I have confidence that our dear friend Popa, whose own absurdity I was responding to, understood the point I was trying to make.

    #913615
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I have confidence that our dear friend Popa, whose own absurdity I was responding to, understood the point I was trying to make.

    I didn’t realize you were being absurd. I thought you were being serious, and I agreed.

    🙂

    #913616
    rebdoniel
    Member

    It is not up to a beis din to be able to foretell the future or read minds. A person can in no way read minds, and if they purport to, they are not espousing Judaism.

    It is up to beis din to witness the conversion and sign the teudah. Not to ensure that a person is observant. That is the ger’s responsibility. Once the ger leaves the mikvah, they’re Jewish.

    And, we do not allow Reform and Conservative Jews to dictate halakha. According to your reasoning, that we don’t do something only because they do it, is silly and dangerous at once.

    The Reform use ta’amei hamikra. We shouldn’t because they do? Come on now.

    #913617
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    They use Taama Dikra, and we shouldn’t.

    #913618
    Health
    Participant

    gefen -“Health – To quote one of your posts, “You should learn that there is a Chiyuv of Danning s/o L’caf Zecus.” So maybe be dan l’caf zechus this lady in the restaurant. Just sayin’…..”

    Yes, I would have to do this if she was Jewish. The more I read all the posts here in her defense – the more I think she isn’t! Just sayin’….

    “morahmom – “Sorry, but you’re wrong. Not that I myself hold that this is ok, but many women show some hair while covering the rest and it blends in. Trust me – you would never know.” I agree totally. Sometimes it is very hard to tell.”

    Yes, sometimes. But in this case it was quite clear to me she wasn’t.

    “Another thing. Maybe this woman is just not comfortable covering her hair yet – IF she even plans to at all. But that’s really none of our business.”

    Of course it is. People pretending to be Orthodox Jews when they are Goyim is more our business than Reform or Conservative conversions. The former are going to mix with us in many ways including marriage. The latter will have very little to do with us.

    #913619
    Health
    Participant

    ready now -“Health- maybe the “husband” was converting too.”

    Naw! Sorry! He looked and talked Jewish. (Not the language.)

    #913620
    Health
    Participant

    nem621 -“why do i mention this story? because it shows how natural wigs can be and maybe you are very sure but in the sake of favorable judgement i think you can say that maybe you saw wrong”

    I answered your post to others already. Look Up!

    #913621
    Health
    Participant

    Mr. doniel -“It is up to beis din to witness the conversion and sign the teudah. Not to ensure that a person is observant. That is the ger’s responsibility. Once the ger leaves the mikvah, they’re Jewish.”

    Who says they are Jewish – You?

    “And, we do not allow Reform and Conservative Jews to dictate halakha.”

    With your train of thought I see absolutely nothing wrong with Conservative or Reform conversions.

    They definitely can do what you just mentioned above.

    “According to your reasoning, that we don’t do something only because they do it, is silly and dangerous at once.”

    Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said anything even close.

    #913622
    WIY
    Member

    Health

    “ready now -“Health- maybe the “husband” was converting too.”

    Naw! Sorry! He looked and talked Jewish. (Not the language.)”

    Maybe he is a BT or OTD on the way back who married her at some point and she is in the process of giyur? There are plenty of possible scenarios. Im not sure why you so strongly want to condemn people you don’t even know and have nothing to do with!

    #913623
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    It is up to beis din to witness the conversion and sign the teudah.

    Well, I assume that is why we call them ????!

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    Oh, right.

    #913624
    yytz
    Participant

    Popa, I don’t agree with the question. We’re never going to have reliable information on a beis din’s success rate in converting gerim who remain frum, and even if we did, we wouldn’t know if it’s due to their low standards, versus some other factor (like luck, or how the local community treats gerim). I do think, though, that gerim should stick with the major batei din (those on the RCA or rabbanut lists for example). Even so, gerim shouldn’t be punished for going to the “wrong” beis din — each ger should be considered on a case by case basis (discretely by rabbis — not on public forums by anonymous commenters.)

    Health, review the Shulchan Aruch. The acceptance of mitzvah does not require, and never has, that the ger have 100% accurate knowledge about what all the mitzvos are and how exactly you follow them. If that were the case then we might as well give male gerim semicha at the same time we convert them! Ignorance about the current interpretations of one or more mitzvos does not indicate a lack of kabalas mitzvos.

    Furthermore, headcoverings are a special case, because many generations of pious Ashkenazim didn’t cover there hair, and this has continued to this day in some MO communities. So if a woman converts in one of those communities and right afterward marries and doesn’t cover her hair, it probably shouldn’t indicate she didn’t accept the mitzvos (unless, perhaps, the beis din discussed the issue with her and specifically told her it’s a mitzvah).

    Now if she’s not covering her hair immediately after conversion in a community where all the women do cover their hair, that’s different, but because of the special history and status of this mitzvah, I’m hesitant to say it would necessarily indicate a lack of kabalas mitzvos. I’m also hesitant because I think it’s inappropriate for anonymous commenters to give halachic opinions on actual cases (such as the case discussed in this thread)! Determining whether a conversion was valid (and thus whether a gerus l’chumra is necessary for her or her children) is a very sensitive issue that should be handled discretely and privately (like the issue of mamzerim).

    For example, Health, if one day your daughter wants to marry this woman’s son, then you can ask your Rov to discretely do some research and figure out whether the son is going to need to do a gerus l’chumra. Or if you’re approached about the possibility of a shidduch with him, then you can have the research done and say no if your Rov concludes the gerus wasn’t valid. There’s no reason to discuss this publicly.

    #913625
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Ok. So our disagreement boils down to whether we have good information about what percentage of geirim are staying frum.

    Gotcha.

    #913626
    gefen
    Participant

    Health: “Yes, I would have to do this if she was Jewish. The more I read all the posts here in her defense – the more I think she isn’t! Just sayin’….”

    Could you explain what you mean by the more you read posts in her defense, the more you think she isn’t? I don’t understand. (I’m asking in all seriousness, I’m not trying to instigate anything or be provocative. I really don’t understand why the posts would make you think that)

    #913627
    Health
    Participant

    yytz -“Health, review the Shulchan Aruch. The acceptance of mitzvah does not require, and never has, that the ger have 100% accurate knowledge about what all the mitzvos are and how exactly you follow them. If that were the case then we might as well give male gerim semicha at the same time we convert them! Ignorance about the current interpretations of one or more mitzvos does not indicate a lack of kabalas mitzvos.”

    I know the S’A and all I have to say to you is practice what you preach -“Who gave anonymous internet commenters the right to be armchair poskim trying making the world more difficult for gerim?”

    Because if there isn’t Kabbolas Hamitzvos -they aren’t Jewish.

    “Furthermore, headcoverings are a special case, because many generations of pious Ashkenazim didn’t cover there hair, and this has continued to this day in some MO communities. So if a woman converts in one of those communities and right afterward marries and doesn’t cover her hair, it probably shouldn’t indicate she didn’t accept the mitzvos (unless, perhaps, the beis din discussed the issue with her and specifically told her it’s a mitzvah).

    Now if she’s not covering her hair immediately after conversion in a community where all the women do cover their hair, that’s different, but because of the special history and status of this mitzvah, I’m hesitant to say it would necessarily indicate a lack of kabalas mitzvos. I’m also hesitant because I think it’s inappropriate for anonymous commenters to give halachic opinions on actual cases (such as the case discussed in this thread)!”

    I really hope you don’t grow up to be a Poisek. You wrote a long-winded post without convincing anybody but yourself.

    My point was – She Doesn’t Know Better! There can’t possibly be Kabbolas Hamitzvos if she thinks that it isn’t wrong. It’s much worse than eating Treif which she knows is Wrong.

    Almost e/o holds there is a Chiyuv to cover your hair.

    Acc. to you she doesn’t ever need to cover her hair and she is a Jew nonetheless. Naarish!

    You need to have Kabbolas Hamitzvos even if noone informed her that there is a Chiyuv to cover her hair. Just because she isn’t covering her hair B’shoggeg doesn’t mean she ever had Kabbolas of all the Mitzvos.

    #913628
    Health
    Participant

    Gefen – Read my posts to others. The more they defend her with Illogic – the more I think that my hunch is right.

    #913629
    dolphina
    Member

    This is such a silly conversation. How do you know she’s not Jewish? Maybe her mother is Jewish and her father isn’t. Maybe her mother converted. Maybe her grandmother converted. Maybe both her parents are Jewish from birth and she just looks Asian. Maybe anything.

    So someone saw somebody who he guesses is a convert based on her facial features, and is SURE she wasn’t covering her hair (because he got a really good look at her head, and knows this for a fact) and is discussing her status as a Jewess. Shame on everyone here. You have no idea, and to cast aspersions egregious.

    For shame.

    #913630
    gefen
    Participant

    Health- I did read your posts. Maybe I have to read them again. But could you just give me one example from any of the posts of what you mean by “Illogic”? Then maybe I can understand when I re-read the posts. Thanks.

    #913631
    Health
    Participant

    dolphina -“This is such a silly conversation. How do you know she’s not Jewish? Maybe her mother is Jewish and her father isn’t. Maybe her mother converted. Maybe her grandmother converted. Maybe both her parents are Jewish from birth and she just looks Asian. Maybe anything.”

    Anything is possible, but we Jews live acc. to Halacha and it has to be probable. There are actually very few Chinese Geirim and to say she is a child of one of them is even more improbable.

    “Shame on everyone here. You have no idea, and to cast aspersions egregious.

    For shame.”

    The shame would be if I didn’t question. People who claim to be Jews aren’t given a Carte D’blanche that they are. If there are reasons to assume not, like in this case, were she doesn’t cover her hair and it’s most likely she doesn’t even think she has to, then the burden of proof is on her, not the other way around.

    People like me who come from generations of Jews, even though noone knows if e/o from the Frum community is really Jewish, but we have something called a Chazaka. This is a Torah term that is difficult to explain. That means if something was a certain way for a period of time, like by land ownership – a period of 3 years, then it was always this way.

    #913632
    Health
    Participant

    gefen -“Health- I did read your posts. Maybe I have to read them again. But could you just give me one example from any of the posts of what you mean by “Illogic”? Then maybe I can understand when I re-read the posts. Thanks.”

    I don’t know what you’re getting at. If you disagree with my posts then post a logical argument against them. Until then my posts are the ending logic.

    Here is one example that I posted to yytz -“Acc. to you she doesn’t ever need to cover her hair and she is a Jew nonetheless.”

    This was a simple conclusion from his post and it is very illogical.

    #913633
    yytz
    Participant

    Not exactly, Popa. As I suggested, even if we had such statistics, I don’t think they’d be very useful. Anyone reading our respective posts should be able to tell we disagree on a lot more than the feasibility of measuring gerim frumness.

    Health, you don’t explain why your view is correct, despite the fact that knowing what all the mitzvos are is not a prerequisite for accepting the mitzvos. Both Rambam and S’A say that we teach them a few mitzvos and convert them. Ideally, gerim would know everything, and I’m sure most know everything they need to know, but if they have some misunderstanding or lack of knowledge about a particular mitzvah that doesn’t mean they didn’t accept the mitzvos.

    Dolphina, I agree! If it were up to me, this thread would be deleted. This thread isn’t any less problematic than others that have been deleted.

    #913634
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Not exactly, Popa. As I suggested, even if we had such statistics, I don’t think they’d be very useful. Anyone reading our respective posts should be able to tell we disagree on a lot more than the feasibility of measuring gerim frumness.

    Well, now you’re just confusing me. I think anyone reading our posts would have concluded that we do agree but for a system of measuring–up to this post where you are taking it all back. [

    I guess we’ll just have to wonder.

    #913635
    Health
    Participant

    yytz -“Health, you don’t explain why your view is correct, despite the fact that knowing what all the mitzvos are is not a prerequisite for accepting the mitzvos. Both Rambam and S’A say that we teach them a few mitzvos and convert them. Ideally, gerim would know everything, and I’m sure most know everything they need to know, but if they have some misunderstanding or lack of knowledge about a particular mitzvah that doesn’t mean they didn’t accept the mitzvos.”

    I did explain it, but you weren’t listening. Not knowing all the Mitzvos at the time of Geirus is Not the same as never planning on keeping a certain Mitzva because she thinks it’s Mutter. Not planning on keeping something even by Mistake is a lack of Kabbolas Hamitzvos!

    #913636
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    dolphina – one person here makes an overly inappropriate and judgemental comment and most people are responding that he is out of line. And your response, “shame on everyone” If you’ll notice I was one of the first posts and I was also asking for it’s closure. Why do you insist on hatefully sweeping everyone into the same boat?

    #913637
    yytz
    Participant

    Popa, I guess we agree on a lot, but earlier you suggested that maybe only one in a thousand gerus candidates should be accepted. I wouldn’t agree to that even if the success rate of batei din was much worse than you think it is. Maybe some mentors or batei din need to adjust their approaches, but I see no reason to make things harder for gerim across the board.

    Health, I don’t think that’s correct. Do you have sources?

    #913638
    ready now
    Participant

    Maybe she is one of the lost tribes who is not consciously aware that she is a Jewish, and is undergoing conversion

    #913639
    DyafMaven
    Member

    please just learn Daf 68a in Shabbos with Tosfos and learn about the case about a convert who converted in a city of non-jews and somehow never learned about shabbos and it is still a kosher conversion.

    Besides that fact I know many modern orthodox jews hat never covered their hair in the first place and that is the way these people were raised in their communities. Leave Brooklyn and go to modern orthodox communities in south or west and even some communities in New jersey and Queens a majority of the Jewish women do not cover their and they may even wear pants. I’m not saying I agree with what they do but this is a fact and these people in all other respects are orthdox jews and they believe that they are orthdox jews.

    So please stop this idea of assuming if a women doesn’t cover her hair it makes her a questionable convert because it doesn’t. Also it is not one of the 613 mitzvos to cover her hair and it is only a das yehudis and has a lot more to do with then just tziyus. Because if a girl covered her hair only for tziyus reasons unmarried women would have cover their hair and shetels would be a problem.

    #913640
    iced
    Member

    Because some Jews who are Orthodox violate certain mitzvos and yet remain full Jews, does not in any way shape or form detract from the fact that a prospective convert who from the outset intends to not keep some of the same mitzvos that some Orthodox Jews fail to keep is and always remains a gentile as his conversion was never effective.

    #913641
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Because some Jews who are Orthodox violate certain mitzvos and yet remain full Jews, does not in any way shape or form detract from the fact that a prospective convert who from the outset intends to not keep some of the same mitzvos that some Orthodox Jews fail to keep is and always remains a gentile as his conversion was never effective.

    That may or may not be true. But in the specific case under discussion there is:

    a. no evidence that, at the time of conversion that she intended to not keep any of the mitzvos

    b. no evidence that she is even a convert to begin with.

    The Wolf

    #913642
    DyafMaven
    Member

    It is not mitzvah to cover your hair its part of being orthdox jewish women. According to any of the great lists of mitzvos of the rishnoim does it list covering your hair as one of them. I’m not questioning if it a mitzvah or not I just do not think it is a prerequisite to convert in order for a wman to cover their hair

    #913643
    rebdoniel
    Member

    There’s a difference between a ger who states ab initio, they are converting al tenai that they’re not going to keep a particular mitzvah, and one who falls into nonobservance of mitzvot over time, according to the Achiezer I cited above.

    But who says kissui harosh for a woman fulfills any mitzvah? Ii think the case for non-covering has been thoroughly explained, as there are those who rightfully believe that a married woman’s uncovered hair is not erva.

    #913644
    Health
    Participant

    DyafMaven -“please just learn Daf 68a in Shabbos with Tosfos and learn about the case about a convert who converted in a city of non-jews and somehow never learned about shabbos and it is still a kosher conversion.”

    Didn’t learn about it, but this wasn’t her fault. This lady not wearing a Shaitel is not even similar.

    “So please stop this idea of assuming if a women doesn’t cover her hair it makes her a questionable convert because it doesn’t. Also it is not one of the 613 mitzvos to cover her hair and it is only a das yehudis and has a lot more to do with then just tziyus.”

    You are confusing the reason with you don’t have to do it. The S’A paskens a woman must cover her hair and if she never accepted this when she was Megyer it’s Not a good Geyrus.

    “Because if a girl covered her hair only for tziyus reasons unmarried women would have cover their hair and shetels would be a problem.”

    The S’A explains why a girl doesn’t have to cover her hair.

    And btw, many Poskim hold you aren’t allowed to wear Shaitels -it’s not so clear cut as you’re making it.

    “It is not mitzvah to cover your hair its part of being orthdox jewish women. According to any of the great lists of mitzvos of the rishnoim does it list covering your hair as one of them. I’m not questioning if it a mitzvah or not I just do not think it is a prerequisite to convert in order for a wman to cover their hair”

    You’re right it’s Not a Mitzva, it’s a Chiyuv. All the Shittos (which are actually very few, nowhere near a Rov) that I heard or learned about that were saying that going without hair being covered being Ok was only as a Limud Zecus, not that they held Mutter.

    #913645
    Health
    Participant

    Wolf -“a. no evidence that, at the time of conversion that she intended to not keep any of the mitzvos

    b. no evidence that she is even a convert to begin with.”

    While there might be No evidence -it doesn’t matter.

    The burden of proof is on her to prove she is a Jew.

    Once it’s possible that she’s not -she is the one that has to prove she is.

    Being the fact that she isn’t covering her hair and she is Chinese is enough to question whether she is a real Ger or not.

    We don’t have to prove she isn’t – she has to prove she is!

    #913646
    Health
    Participant

    Mr. Doniel -“There’s a difference between a ger who states ab initio, they are converting al tenai that they’re not going to keep a particular mitzvah, and one who falls into nonobservance of mitzvot over time, according to the Achiezer I cited above.”

    Falling into Nonobservance over time is Not the same thing as never planning to keep some Chiyuv like covering your hair, even if she thinks that it’s Not a Chiyuv.

    “But who says kissui harosh for a woman fulfills any mitzvah? Ii think the case for non-covering has been thoroughly explained, as there are those who rightfully believe that a married woman’s uncovered hair is not erva.”

    I just posted this and I’ll repeat it for you -“You’re right it’s Not a Mitzva, it’s a Chiyuv. All the Shittos (which are actually very few, nowhere near a Rov) that I heard or learned about that were saying that going without hair being covered being Ok was only as a Limud Zecus, not that they held Mutter.”

    #913647
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Okay, I’m going to defend Health here. He didn’t come here to bash a particular person, or insult a ger. He came to pose a halachic shaila, based on an observation he made.

    Sure, it’s possible for a shaitel to look real; it’s also possible on occassion to know for sure that it’s not a shaitel.

    Of course, it’s possible that someone, over time, became lax in her observance; but since there are many shomrei Shabbos who don’t cover their hair, it’s very possible that she never intended to, and it’s certainly reasonable for his experience to arouse the shaila.

    However (and I may surprise some with this opinion), I think that even if she never intended to cover her hair, her geirus is still valid. We don’t need to find a legitimate heter to leave the hair uncovered, all we need to do is be able to assume that she doesn’t think it’s a violation of halacha. That’s reasonable to assume, since so many shomrei Shabbos ladies don’t wear a head covering.

    Tosofos in Shabbos (68A bd”h Ger – http://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=2&daf=68&format=pdf) say that even if someone doesn’t know about Shabbos, it doesn’t passul the geirus.

    I was present when this very shaila was presented to an adam gadol; there was a lady who was m’gayer with no intention to cover her hair (she converted with her husband). The godol affirmed the geirus.

    #913648
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    DY: I think it is far more likely that Health simply wanted to start a debate about accepting geirim who may or may not end up keeping halacha.

    And he succeeded admirably.

    And I kind of also wanted to see that debate, because I will never skip an opportunity to make fun of the geirus clowns like Weiss and his ilk.

    #913649
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    PBA: The OP was talking about someone who “keeps everything” but hair covering. Aren’t you being a bit generous with Avi Weiss to assume that his geirim are so observant?

    #913650
    EY Yid
    Member

    I was in NYC in a restaurant and I saw a Guy with a Yarmulka with his wife. He looked like a regular American clean shaven Frum Jew, but his wife (he told the waiter it was his wife) was Chinese. Let’s assume she was Megiyer acc. to Halacha and she keeps everything, but she didn’t have her head covered.

    Is not covering your hair enough to say that it wasn’t a good Geyrus or not?

    Do you ask these same questions of EVERY Jew? When will you stop making gairim stop PROVING their yiddishkeit?

    #913651
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    EY Yid,

    He said “let’s assume”, and asked a question based on that. He didn’t say he knows for a fact that she never intended to cover her hair, nor did he say that every ger needs to prove the validity of the geirus.

    #913652
    gefen
    Participant

    Health “I don’t know what you’re getting at. If you disagree with my posts then post a logical argument against them. Until then my posts are the ending logic.”

    I didn’t say I either agree or disagree with you. I was just trying to understand what you meant.

    Now that this thread has gotten so long, I must be honest and say I haven’t had a chance to read most of it. So I really cannot comment on anything until (and if) I go through all the posts.

    #913653
    longarekel
    Member

    It is better to have the hair uncovered and kept in a modest fashion than to wear a glamorous and thus immodest wig. Ideally a woman’s head should be covered with a modest head-covering that does not look like hair. In a society where for whatever reason that will not be done, there is halachik basis for permitting the head to be uncovered with the hair kept in a modest fashion. There is no halachik basis for wearing a fancy wig. As many of my friends here know, I do not hold of the modern-orthodox religion at all. But those who consider themselves ‘frum’ and wear a fancy wig are transgressing ‘das moshe’ and ‘das yehudis’ and they can be divorced without a kesuba if their husband is makpid.

    As for the giyoress issue, since as stated, there is halachik basis for having the head uncovered, it is a good gairus if she is not intending to violate halacha. BTW the reason why balei tshuva and geirim may have a problem with head-covering is because they see a contradiction in the fact that she can wear a fancy wig but cannot leave hair uncovered. That’s exactly right. It is a contradiction. Either cover the hair in a modest fashion with something that does not resemble hair (this is ideal), or leave the hair uncovered in a modest fashion. The objective is tzenius, not the wig.

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