Going off the Derech

have fun with him, something that you really enjoy, no pretending

There are two things your son needs right now; Love and Validation. Love – The first step is to show him (not just tell) that your love for him is unconditional. You must show him that even if he chooses this path in life he always has a warm home to come to.

Validation – Somewhere in the last couple of years your son must have felt very little self worth living a Torah life-style. If he was happy with himself this usually does not happen. Therefore, before he takes any further steps down this road try to validate parts of his life right now. Example: if he listens to certain music, instead of asking “why are you listening to such shmutz?” surprise him by picking up the headphones and saying “this song is pretty good”… eventually that feeling of validation often leads to positive improvements in the future.

As for you… PLEASE have patience, I happen to be a highschool Rebbe and have seen this scenario many times before. 16 is a very immature age. As long as he can see the positive in Yiddishkeit then he has a very good chance of coming back in a couple of years.

In conclusion: It will be extremely tough for you to watch your son doing certain things, yet, if you stay calm, just show him love, validate anything you can of his newly acquired lifestyle(obviously nothing that is clearly against the Torah) and have patience, things should eventually work out.

Hatzlocha Rabbah!

different things work for different kids.

some get a “big brother/big sister” who gives a sort of role model and supports the kid

some go for counseling

some just are asking for TLC

some need firm strong rules

some need less rules ?(when something is prohibited its more inticing)

some need to change schools

some need more friends

some need more activities

some dont really have enough hashkafa

and some just have TOO much hashkafa

elaborate more so i can give a better answer

Hi write or wrong.

I would recommend to be the “voice of reason” for him. At his age, he is very influenced by his peers and this trend of wanting to be cool by going after shtussim.

He may just be testing the boundaries and also note that your words may have more of an impact on him than you realize.

Your support and encouragement for him to do the right thing will help him “go off” a little less, than more, until he matures and is understands why he should be grateful.

Listen, many of us who made it here from there know the appealing garbage is garbage, so…… I hate the idea that some people already “on the derech” have to learn that the hard way. But the hard way is usually a lesson well learned.

Hatzlacha Rabbah!!!

I have my opinions, but you should be speaking to experts at this point.

When I say experts, I mean therapists. You can ask your rav to recommend one.

Dear Write or Wrong,

I must admit when i originally posted i was under the impression that he was “going…” meaning he was showing signs of disinterest. It seems like he is further in the process. That being said, I re-read my post and would not change anything from what I wrote earlier. Work on his self esteem! At this point try to only compliment his good moments. Don’t worry so much about what he is exposing himself to because a) it will make you sick b) discouraging him will provoke him more.

To answer the question you directed towards me “How can my son see the positive in Yiddishkeit, when he’s disconnected from everything, and doesn’t spend time at home?”

Simple… “Wow my parents are complimenting me when i rejected their lifestyle and my entire upbringing…. There must be something that Jews have that others do not…”

Hatzlocha Rabbah!

Make sure to get help for yourself too! A support group, or a good frum therapist to talk to. What you are going through is extremely painful and don’t be ashamed on getting help for yourself, so you can help your son.

I am davening for your son and all the other kids that are off the derech. Including my daughter.

First of all, kudos on asking for advice, I know that that’s not easy to do, especially in situations like these. I don’t have kids so I can’t imagine what you must be feeling right now, but I work with kids like these every day at Our Place so I hope I can offer some ideas. Please pardon me if I seem blunt at times. Please correct me when I’m wrong.

Someone said above that in their opinion your kid isn’t going anymore, that he’s already a but further. Based on your description I would say that’s accurate. While there is what to be said about what people said above about trying to instill a love for yahadus is nice, but it has to be in context. It sounds from what you said that your son is angry about something and that is making him dislike judaism and by extension his family. The most important thing is unconditional love, as mentioned above by several people.

You ask a good question though, exactly how permissive do you have to be to be seen as loving unconditionally? The truth is that permissiveness and love are not mutually inclusive. For example, if a small child shoplifts and you reprimand him, do you not still love him? Permissiveness is not necessarily love, not is lack of permissiveness a lack of love. But back on point. I would say based on your description that it’s past the point of permission, so that’s a moot point. How do you show unconditional love for someone who does not appear to value that love? Good question.

First of all, accept who and what your son is. That does not mean you have to like it, that does not mean you have to approve of it (nor should you), but you should accept it. When you see your son now you need to see your son, not what you would have liked him to be, not who perhaps he might have been, you need to see and love what he is. That means that no matter how he looks, and who he is with, the smile on your face when you greet him is the same as it would be if he looked like the next bochur. I know that that’s hard to do, but that’s what he needs. You need to love him.

This is not meant as a criticism, it’s just instructional. Mussar has a time and a place, and it is only to be given if it will be readily accepted. It doesn’t sound like your son is interested in any, so don’t offer it. When you interact, leave it all off the table, and just treat him like you would if he were your standard run of the mill kid. The idea being that right now there’s something holding him back from embracing yahadus, and many times it’s common for kids to view their parents as the source of whatever is bothering him. Eventually that something will hopefully go away, and when it does he will be looking for a strong support system to fall back on. That strong support system will ideally be his family.

By doing this you are investing in his future. Support him and love him and he will eventually return. If he isn’t interested in going to yeshiva, don’t push it. Make a man out of him, help him learn a trade and get an honest paying job. There is no reason why he can’t be an upstanding member of society just because he doesn’t feel like being frum now. It will help in the long run if his life gets in order now.

About the wrong crowd though…that’s a tough one. There’s not much you can do about who he hangs out with, and forbidding it outright will just make him drift further away. I don’t know what he’s into, or what his friends are into. Many kids turn to the streets just to do what they want regardless of the consequences, but the fact that your son comes home at night is a very good thing. Please try to keep it that way.

You have quite a challenge ahead of you, and I wish you much hatzlacha. Just two questions, one may be a bit offensive but I don’t intend it that way. 1) Do you have any idea what might be causing such intense anger? 2) Is he on anything? Please be mochel me for the second question and feel free not to answer it.

Maybe tell him that you understand his need for freedom and you will grant it to him on some conditions:

1. He must tell you what time he’ll be home that night.

2. Tell you who he’s hanging out with for the day.

3. He should tell you 2 things he did that day.

3. He won’t engage in any dangerous/illegal activity.

Etc… These are just examples. You can set your own conditions.

Hashem should help you and your son overcome this challenge and give you strength to deal with it.

Therapists are bad. To them OTD is a normal, acceptable, lifestyle choice.

You should speak to Gedolim and Rabbonim.

Write or wrong: I would find him something religious that he can enjoy. Find some cute Chaddishe vorts about Mitzvos so he can feel and enjoy doing Mitzvos. Also, try and go easier on him with the things that aren’t as important. If he’d stop wearing black and white but would start wearing Tzitzis again instead that’s a tremendous plus. He’s still your kid. Make trade-offs. Tell him that you won’t let him hang out with friends all day but in exchange for being allowed freedom most of the day he has to do some things for you. Also, you can disapprove of what someone is doing and still love them. Show him that you support him as a person, even if you don’t support his actions.

avhaben: Not sure where you got that from. Psychologists are not rabbonim, true, but rabbonim are not psychologists unless they’re licensed. You wouldn’t go to a pediatrician if your car is broken, would you?

Sam2: assuming there’s an interest at all. Usually with stuff like this there’s an underlying reason especially since it sounds more like there’s something that drove him off rather than just losing interest. Vertlach are nice for people who might be a bit shaky, but they can backfire in the wrong setting. It’s like telling someone who’s depressed to just snap out of it; it doesn’t necessarily work like that.

Rabbi Wallerstien would be a good idea if you can get ahold of him.

“so when u tell a kid im ok if u listen to goyish music or do x y and z they will really know deep down ur lying 2 them”

It’s not that you’re ok with what they’re doing, its that despite the fact that they are doing something you don’t approve of, you still love them.

“B:validate him for real and including is empathize with him and just try to be a friend not a parent yes thats a real concept ur kid should have open relationship with u err on the side of being 2 friendly over the side of being fearful(though a little bit is oviously important”

yep

i think u should speak to rabbi shmuel gluck from areivim in monsey he helps a lot of teens in that situation or even worse, you could check out the website areivim.com they have a lot of programs that could help the office # is 845-371-2760 his cell # is 914-490-8129 I’m sure he would help u helped thousands of kids i hope this helped

Welcome back, soliek! 😛

So we just need to put “off the derech” in the title?

From Personal Experience

Contact Areivim

Their based in monsey NY

but the Director, Rabbi Gluck has Connections Everywhere and has dealt with the most extreme cases.

They’re actually starting a wilderness program which basically takes these kids into the wilderness with professional instructors, and its sort of like a boot camp, no phone, no iPod, no computer.

the idea is to make a dysfunctional teen into a functioning teen, and then once he’s a functioning human IE, has a schedule and has a sense of what responsibilities are

then u might find him surprisingly going back “on the derech”

Good luck to you all

avhaben: Have you ever worked with people who are off the derech? Do you know what the purpose of psychology is? Do you even know why someone would suggest that he see one?

“the idea is to make a dysfunctional teen into a functioning teen, and then once he’s a functioning human IE, has a schedule and has a sense of what responsibilities are

then u might find him surprisingly going back ‘on the derech'”

which is a good way of explaining to avhaben why therapy is important. I forgot who said it, but it was someone big in kiruv, that sometimes you need to make someone into a regular goy before you can make him into a ger. If a person has issues that drove him off in the first place, or a person is suffering with something that is preventing him from going back on, then you first need to address those concerns before you can try to be mekarev him. Otherwise he will have no interest in what you’re saying.

Also for some reason you’re assuming that there are no frum psychologists out there who would be aware that for us going off the derech is problematic. That’s assuming you were at all right. You happen to be grossly mistaken, except for certain cases.

avhaben- Where did u get this idea that therapists don’t view being OTD as a problem, im a frum therapist myself and your simply wrong. Idk if this is what you are referring to, but many times therapists will show true unconditional love and support even when they don’d agree with something. Its a way of dealing with issues, however that doesnt mean they don’t view going OTD as a positive decision.

Also something else…when someone feels angry with life they tend to rebel against any authority they know. Religion is a pretty big authority. Therefore, in many cases, that anger must be dealt with before you can be mekarev a person. However you feel it should or could be dealt with.

write or wrong – First of all, “unconditional love” is a beautiful concept. However, today, not every child goes off the derech because he did not get unconditional love. It appears that that was what we heard about maybe five years ago. Today, boys are going off because they are going off. Today, there are boys that no matter what was done for them, it was the wrong decision. It is a combination of factors; first and foremost, that we don’t really understand our children’s experiences and their natures until they are older and it is too late. Sometimes, even when asking Daas Torah, it is not the case anymore that the rabbonim know what to do. The world is changing much faster than anyone can keep up, and unless a rav has a kesher with a boy and really knows that boy, there is no rhyme or reason on what makes boys today go otd. Third, there is much more abuse in our community than people realize. There is a growing awareness that many of our kids are being porek ol because they were victims and are too ashamed to get help. There could be any one of a number of traumas that occurred, as well. What is most important to ALWAYS remember is that the child who goes OTD is suffering terribly and could not communicate this in a healthy way, for whatever reason, mostly because they are immature.

To reiterate, today there is a hester ponim, and we really don’t necessarily know how to raise our children. First and foremost is to daven. Secondly, speak to a rov that is familiar with these issues in your neighborhood, and if your son won’t go for counseling, then please, you and your spouse should go, to answer your critical questions of limitations, how to deal with his anger, and how to communicate with your other children.

As a suggestion, today, what appears to help the boys/girls is “unconditional acceptance”: this is much harder and apparently leaves a greater impression on the child, because many of these kids really do know that they are loved. Remember, the one suffering the most in this picture is your son. May you be bentshed to see Yiddishe nachas from EVERY one of your children. Hatzlocha vebrocha.