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WOW maybe you misunderstand me
Of course when he goes to Yeshiva he should wear the uniform of the yeshiva. I am talking about down time, that is when he could wear what he wants.
FYI I dont like wearing jeans as I dont like how tight they are, but each to his own.
GAW,
I think you missed my point, as did ZD in his response.
Of course there will be people who are guilty of L”H in every community. And, of course, people will tend to say L”H about things which bother them. If someone, for example (based on the discussion in this thread) wears jeans, it won’t be a topic of L”H in a M.O. community, although it might in a right wing community (wrongly so).
Something else might make waves and cause L”H in a M.O. community (I remember, for example when a right wing rov in a M.O. community refused to allow hatikvah to be sung at his shul’s dinner, there was a lot of L”H said about him).
What ZD was saying, in essence, was that since he doesn’t agree with the hashkafos upon which the L”H being said in a RW community is based, the RW community is by definition not a Torah community.
That is the biased, hateful statement to which I objected.
slightly off topic but not really:
simchah is a function of accomplishment and people feel good about things that they are good at. For someone to be attracted to a particular lifestyle, they have to be allowed an opportunity to excel at something which is admired within that society. Blandness is very off putting especially for teenagers. So whatever your son is good at, I suggest that he cultivates it and is praised for it.
If I see 3 people doing the same wrong thing, They are all telling Lashon Harah.
A Secular Jew, A MO jew and a Charedi Jew . I dont consider the sin the same. Call me a hippocrite or not, but the person who claims to be a “True Torah Jew” I expect more from them , than someone whose doesnt say that. When you put yourself on a Higher madrega I do expect more from you. Just like I expect more from the President than an average citizen.
As far as the incident with Hatikva, I dont know anything about that. I have not heard of it. I will say this the rav should have known his congregation and understood how they felt. If he felt he could not abide by that he should not have taken the position
You consider chareidi to have a higher standard, so if we’re not perfect, you think someone who notices that should leave and join a community with a lower standard?
Well I expect more from MO than secular, so I guess according to your logic, we should all become secular.
Your thought process is cloudy.
As far as the hatikva incident, it’s not your fault for not understanding the context because I didn’t provide it, but saying he shouldn’t have taken the position is wrong.
WOW- keep us posted on the progress..
as he matures he will come back to talk to you.
He will realize that the ‘friends’ are not true friends after all.
Have a beautiful shabbos.
WOW: I have read through most of this thread and I find it very close to heart. In one important aspect I can relate to what you and son and family are going through more than almost all your responders. I too am a child to an english speaking family who grew up in on of the typical Charedi neighborhoods and I actually went through the “prominent” yeshivos untill about SHiur gimmel in Yeshiva gedolah.
As much chizzuk and feedback that you may and I’m sure you are getting from all these people there is something about growing up within this system that noone even from the most yeshivish Lakewood type communities in AMerica can relate to and dare I say, give advice for.
I will give you my 2 cents and if you relate I can talk more because I can go on all day and if not relevant then there is no purpose.
I have been reading your posts and some of what people are trying to convey to you and I have alot what to say. I will be a bit presumptiouous and please do not take this the wrong way. I do not mean to be judgemental at all rather just helpful. You seem like the classic person who has realized that there is a certain “spirituality” or standard of Judaism that exists or is personified by the Charedi community living in Israel (The modox counterparts would argue the same for the dati leumi crowd in israel as oppsoed to the one in AMerica) As someone smart once put it: In america, Judaism has become a great part of life, even the biggest part for some people. In Israel it is life. Some people won’t like me writing this but there is an element of truth to it. Be aware that this is coming from someone who attributes years of confusion and being lost to the charedi system.
I will explain. Whatever the reason that your son is hurting and I obviously don’t know what that is but from experience he needs therapy immediatelly. More improtantly, he needs from you to change your mindset. there may be alot of merit and truth to the purity that you have seen and arguing here for. But coming from a different perspective which is the one your son is living in and the one alot of ppl here are conveying to you, he sin’t so bad. He really isn’t. I don’t know how you should work out the details and he is only sixteen. What he needs is for you to agree with him on something very deep and essential to him. You need to figure out what that is. It probably is very psycholgical but probably also has philosophical underlyings. It can’t be that all should be the same and learn and not develop their personalities and be locked within a world where there aren’t many options. Your son probably has already developed a philosophy of life and however immature and chaotic it may be,and however fake it is because it is probably based on all the movies he watches,there is a kernel somewhere within that is based on what he percieves as true. you need to find a way to relate to what is really bothering him. I don’t want to project too much but there maybe be underlying cultural view that you have adopted but you may need to realize that there are faults in that world view even if it is as you wrote somewhere “the best of all others” and your son may have been affected by those faults and therefore he needs to feel like another mindset is legitimate even by you in a rwal way. After which He needs to be part of a system (mental not only practical) that would work for him. Parents, especially AMerican, in Israel, want to forget that there exsits a more compromising midset. you are right: It’s why you are living there and not in FLatbush. Just remember that there is merit to the non Chredi mindset of starting with the person as opposed to the ideal. Maybe your son needs that. Maybe he needs you to acknowledge that that is ok. This is coming again from someone who understands the dieals you are trying to live up to.
Maybe he can go to AMerica. He may have some hard times there. Eventually he will realize that there is noone to be angry at there because the charedim aren’t bothering him there. He will want to make something out of himself. Believe me I will not specify deatils about myself or people I know who were in the same similar situation. I will say that you son has the potential of being someone very well rounded and great being that he is so senstive and real and on the other hand was raised in a very idealistic environment. He may and proabably does have potential to be a great source of inspiration if he builds himself and bezrat hashem he will. Just do your best that the process isn’t too painful and strenuous. Make sure he has some energy left for after the rebellion.
This thread is out of my depths, but here’s a thought from Rb Yitzchak Blazer z”l
The passuk says hu yeshufcha akev veata teshufenah rosh – he will strike at your ankle and you will crush his head.
He explains that when the yetzer hara attacks he does so in a way in which the situation gets progressively worse, the attack starts from the heel and works its way through the rest of the body. However when the yetzer hatov wins the situation changes suddenly for the better, similar to the snake’s head being crushed.
I don’t believe that any effort anyone ever made was lost, so regardless of whether or not there seems to be an effect at the moment, something always sticks.
WOW-
I have been silently reading your posts for quite a while now. I’m the raving lunatic who a while back brought to your attention the distinct possibility that your son, who you have raised so prudently and dilligently, may actually be suffering from an underlying mood disorder, namely bipolar disorder. You didn’t buy it and I had no intention of nagging. However, as this thread has unfolded, I want to remind you of some of the things you have told us about your son:
-he has a serious anger problem
-he is depressed
-he lies
-he does not sleep at night
-he relies on alchohol and cigarettes to cope
-he is moody
These are all signs of a possible underlying mood disorder.
If all of the above were true, but there was a history of abuse or serious traum, then my attitude would be different, but you claim that you have provided him with a functional, warm home. Based on what I’ve read, I absolutely believe that. So that leaves us with only two options; either you are in complete denial, or you simply have no clue what the face of mental illness looks like. Of course, there is a possibility your son does not have a mood disorder, but you won’t know until you investigate the matter.
In my previous posts, you’ve responded that his behaviour began after several negative experiences with his Rosh Yeshiva, and a few rotten kids who harrassed him. Maybe so, but you fail to realize that those incidents may have been the trigger that ignited the flame of the illness. Often people with a predisposition for mental illness will do just fine as long as all is well in their life. But when a crisis or other chaos arrives, the otherwise latent condition rears its ugly head.
WOW–you’ve listened to and implemented every piece of sound advice given to you on this board. Tragically, none of it has worked. If there was a 10% chance that what I’m proposing would guide your child in the right direction would you try it? Of course you would. What about 5%? Probably so.
Your child’s behaviour is out of line with the values and principles you have instilled in him. He has grown in a warm, caring and functional home. You deeply care about him and have exhibited a clearly open and non-judgemental attiitude about his defiance. You are asking for but a bit of respect, consideration, and sensitivity, yet he persists on a path that is totally erratic, unpredictable and lacks any logical explanation.
Can you honestly tell me, after everything I have spelled out for you, that the possibility of an underlying mental disorder is unrealistic?
Find a good psychiatrist (that’s a medical doctor, not a therpaist), preferably one that is comfortable and accustomed to diagnosing mood disorders and bipolar disorder and provide your son with the medication he needs (assuming the doctor in fact makes that diagnosis)to function normally.
I really think you should heed my advice.
“-he has a serious anger problem
-he is depressed
-he lies
-he does not sleep at night
-he relies on alchohol and cigarettes to cope
-he is moody”
Sounds like most teenagers I know…..
He’ll come around. Just keep reminding yourself. It’s the ones who have the biggest life struggles who become the greatest.
I was there, my friends were there. We all came around. Just keep showing him that Torah is worth living and that the keepers of Torah are a noble people to be part of.
It’s hard to see now but things will work out.
I know I will get ‘bashed’ for this..
but there are natural alternitives to medication.
vitamins that will have the same effect as meds without the side affects (and stigma)..
wow– google lithium oratate and see what is said. check out the vdieo clip of ‘john gray’.
btw my son is currently seeng a neurocognitive doctor, who gets to the source of the problem and corrects with diet, vitamins, or minerals etc.. He has brain fluids that have to be leveld.. wrong msgs are being sent to the brain etc..
its quite amazing.. thru kinesiology a lot can be corrected as well.
Its a terrible thing that some seem to say that if a teenager doesnt belive or act exactly as the parent wants, they are suffering from some sort of mental illness.
If everyone belived and acted the same that would be a mental illness, we are all trained to think individually
Write or Wrong: I can not possibly put into words , my feelings for you and what you are going through. Evry Yiddishe momma only wants the best for their children, and our MASTER FATHER in heaven for sure cares for each and every one of us. My prayer for you is , you should begin to see the light at the end of the tunnel and see only PURE nachas from all your children.
(As an added note, please do not take anyones words in an offensive way. Not everyone has the proper tools to deal with this situation)
WOW
First of all its the summertime,
May I suggest trying to get him a job at a camp?
I know it might be late, but its worth a try. Hopefully one out of town.
If its too late for him to get a Job at a camp, perhaps its not too late for you to try to get out of town with the family at a Bungalo colony or elsewhere
WoW: How close is he to turning 18? Maybe you can send him to the army. There’s no guarantee that that would turn him Frum, but it should get him to not want to be a bum.
write or wrong – I have been following this thread and my heart goes out to you. You sound like such a wonderful mother and I can tell that you really love your son.
Mom12 – You mentioned lithium oratate, which is derived from lithium. Lithium is a mood stabilizer used for patients with bipolar disorder. It has a very narrow therapeutic range and toxicity can happen very easily. Toxicity leads to coarse tremors, to a coma, and to death. People who are prescribed lithium have their blood levels checked every 2 weeks. I do not think it’s a good idea to take anything derived from lithium without speaking to a medical professional.
wow- I am really saddened that he left.
Do you know where he is sleeping.
(I have a 17 yr old sleeping by me- cuz he cannot be home…)
Is he by a normal family?
or ‘just with friends’
Dont loose sleep- cuz you need the strength
to withstand all this, as well as take care of the rest of the family.
But dont be surprized when he shows up back home… You just might find him back in his bed..
maybe not so soon.. but soon enough..
Hazlacha Rabba. I hope you can get help.. I did not get much..
I hope you dont take this the wrong way as I have been following this for a while
I guess you didnt have a backup plan, it seemed your plan was he would “recover” , you would pray , say tehillim and he would go back to the yeshiva and love it.
You never seemed to have a plan b, even though they were suggested and now plan A seems to have failed you are lost.
There is nothing wrong with a Plan B, hopefully you can make one quickly
I should partially apologize, it wasnt clear to me if you lived in NY or Israel. I actually was going to suggest sending him to Israel.
Since you live in Israel, why not send him to grandparents in NY (If this is possible)
Thanks for all the suggestions, but unfortunately, the situation has deteriorated badly. My son quit Yeshiva and left to be with his chevra.
Now, what do I do…………………..?
BS”D
I have put some thought into the off the derech “crisis”, and have what you might believe is an “unorthodox” idea.
The Amish have a concept called “Rumspringa”, where a teen “goes off the derech” and tries out other cultures. They can then decide what is best for them (similar to Yisro, who tries all Avodah Zara before he settled that Avodas Hashem is correct).
Teens are not brought up to be, and if fact are not deemed capable of making the correct decision, that is why we do not allow teens to marry, drink, smoke, etc. They are not Bar Onshim until 20 (hypothetically two years into being married). Even Chazal understand that even though they are mechuyav in Mitzvos, Hashem gives teens a “grace period” to find themselves and seek their path to Avodas Hashem.
In your position (which I am not, and do not fully comprehend), I would fully support my son’s quest to find himself, with the (internal) hope that this would be the best way to keep him connected to Yiddishkeit. I would also discuss (if possible) the idea of making no irrevocable changes (i.e. no Tattoos & no pregnancies). Your support will still mean much to your son, and if you are able to do so without judgement, you should still have him in your home and treat him as normal (judging him will just make things worse). Being teenage is just a stage of life, and almost all people grow out of it. He will Bezras Hashem decide the best way for him towards Avoda in due time, assuming he is not pushed off further.
Hatzlacha in all your endeavours.
I realize you are in Israel and Things are different there than here and I am not so familiar with life there, So a MO school which would have been a Plan B here in US would not work in Israel
Dont cringe by these words
“Hesder Yeshiva”
FYI Camps have not started yet here in US so maybe its still an option
WOW–
Let me understand this clearly; you’re willing to speak with family, friends, rabbonim, therapists, and perfect strangers on this board, but you’re not willing to speak to a psychiatrist? This is logical?
In a previous post you said that your son didn’t have a manic episode and therefore cannot be diagnosed with bipolar disorder. There are many forms of the illness and in Bipolar disorder type2, patients exhibits little or no signs of mania. You obviously have a limited understanding of this condition. If you are desparate as you contend, why won’t you explore all avenues?
I would urge all of the regular contributors on this board to stop minimizing the gravity of the situation by unprudently suggesting that the boy is going through some normal, transient stage that all or most teens go through. Most teens don’t curse their parents, let alone to their face. Most teens don’t wander the streets, almost every night, until 4am. Most teens don’t smoke, and many won’t drink, except under normal social circumstances like a wedding or bar mitzvah. Most teens aren’t depressed, anxious, and have a low self-esteem. Very, very few teens drop out of Yeshiva, and almost no teens tell their parents they “want to be a street kid”. Clearly you are trying to be helpful, but in reality all that is accomplished is a build-up of wishful thinking by WOW. Has it occured to anyone that the boy might actually be suffering from a REAL MEDICAL CONDITION? Do you give an asthmatic or diabetic a warm and fuzzy hug in the hopes of getting him to feel better, or do you say go see a doctor? I know everyone wants to believe that psychiatrists are there to treat ‘other peoples problems’, certainly ‘I or my child doesn’t need one’, but perhaps its time to see this for what it is?
Just have a heart to heart conversation with him. I know you probably tried this but your son obviously has some issues that he needs help going through. Give him extra attention and try to understand his interests. Focus on improving your relationship with him until he realizes that the more he goes off the derech the more he is hurting you. get closer to him so that he doesn’t want to hurt you.
Brainfreeze- Do you own one of them teenagers?
I do..This is what they do! and so does the whole group of friends.
In general my teenagers were night ppl.. and would have rather slept late in the morning.
the ones that had ‘chishik’. got up even if they were tired bec. they had the responsibility. And the others who were somewhat depressd or had issues in Yeshiva had no will to go so they slept.
this is what they do.
hudi- lithium oratate as opposed to the calcitate does not have these side affects and is definitely more desirable.. do some research. I have
WOW- let him sleep. at least those hours that he is home, you know where he is.. If he would be awake he would not stay home.
when he gets up I just ask once if he davend and put on t’fillin.
I usually dont get an answer- but later I ‘catch’ him with t’fillin on.. never mind a shul…
by the way it looks like the men are supposed to be the angry ones and the moms try to deal with the kid rationally.. I know what u r going thru.
He will return.. maybe not to the exact religious level that your family is at but definitely above where he is now.
I cannot ‘reach’ my son right now, since he is so defiant.
IMHO, that is the first thing that you should work on. Not the Yiddishkeit. From what you said to Pirate, you seem to be on the right track. Omnia vincit Amor (Love conquers all). One point though. Do not mention you. Make it about him. He doesn’t care (at this point) that he hurts you, that may even be part of his intentions. You have to prove to him that you are on his side.
BSD.
Why not try getting him involved in a big brother sort of program. From what you are saying hes to angry to talk to you or your husband. So if there is an older guy that he knows (who you think can be a good influence on him), why not try to have the older guy hang out with him more.
WOW–
The fact that other families in your community are going through the same thing or worse doesn’t prove anything. Most Jews don’t keep the Torah, does that prove that the Torah isn’t authentic?
There may in fact be many others who seem depressed or smoke, but you need to look at the entire picture. You can’t say that most of them are as troubled as you portray your son to be. Your son belongs to a small minority. Like you said, you know “8 families” out of many hundreds. That’s a very small minority.
As far as your family doctors and psychologists who have already ruled out bipolar, I say that they are not a position to rule it out any more than I am in a position to diagnose him. There is an expression that says that ‘if you are a hammer all you see are nails’. If you see a given specialist, he will try to figure out which condition that he happens to specialize in could be the cause of the symptom. Psychologists cant directly treat bipolar since it requires meds, so naturally they dont look for it. They see an angry defiant kid and they want to sit and talk with them because thats what they do. Everybody knows that psychologists are notoriously lousy diagnosticians. Ask any established bipolar person, who is now treated and stable, how many psychologists they needed to see before anyone had the good sense to refer them to a psychiatrist.
Lastly, and repeatedly, I’m not saying your kid is bipolar. I’m saying he might be. And considering the grave consequences of untreated bipolar disorder, I can’t understand why you’re resisting. How can you adamantly state he is not bipolar when I’ve already proven to you that you know little about the condition? You’re making an awefully hefty wager about something you don’t know a whole lot about, and the consequences of not diagnosing the condition are dire (15% suicide rates, 90% divorce rates, unemployment, substance abuse etc.).
Thanks.
please be mochel me if you took it the wrong way. But, maybe you should have outlined it differently.
And, you should always consult with someone professional, you say you have tried everything- but, that he is leaving.
I didn’t mean you were lying. I just am wondering what exactly is the story here. Most teenagers, as I had said go through a phase.
It’s common. And you say- he doesn’t want to go to his yeshiva anymore. Does that mean, he won’t go to any yeshiva, or is he a dropout? I’m not trying to put you on the spot- or speak for anyone else, but a lot of people here have given you some great ideas. I, myself was debating to even get into this discussion.
The more I kept tracking it, the more confusing it got. That is all that I’m saying… and now, it seems to be even worse.
It’s the summer -time, bein hazmanim. See what happens when it gets closer to Elul, and he has to get back to yeshiva, if he still doesn’t want to go back, then you got a problem. Everyone needs some time to chill during bein hazmanim! No one – as I said before- has to wear the yeshiva uniform. Especially outside yeshiva. There are those yeshiva bochurim -even during the zman- when they get home, change into something more comfortable.
I was trying to get a load of the situation, and to see where the kid was holding. you also mentioned your younger son was hanging out with his older brother.
I was just trying to put everything in chronological order to figure this out. Sorry if I was a bit too harsh.
Pirate- a big brother idea is a good one, if he will let himself.
mom- I know it’s shabbos by u now and I wish you all the best.
was he home for shabos at all?
If you dont let him sleep will he stay home in the evening?
or will he find a friend with a bed..I had kids comng to me cuz they had to leave the house and then they finished sleeping by me (I mean my son).
I had a problem of evening occupation with this son of mine..If they are not learnrs or readers what is there to do?
they get bored and act up.. or leave the house or argue..
My son now owns a car and is forever with friends and BH does not listen to secular music but the cd is always on..
Keep on davening..
My son’s Rebbe called and spoke to my son. He wants to meet him tomorrow, let’s see what happens..
Is this the Rebbe that he hates? and the one you said alot of students dont like
IMO this is not a good idea if this is the rebbe
Do you accept your son even if he will be not frum? Will you still love him?
Although, I still think the situation is a bit extreme.
You also mentioned he steals alcohol and you know he smokes.
Can you please elaborate? -Most yeshiva kids these days almost always are in the mood for a beer.
How about stepping back a moment and giving everyone a CLEAR moment of where the kid is holding? I can’t imagine that none of these great ideas didn’t work?
Does he have access to online? Sometimes a mentor whom he knows has no connection with anyone that he knows is better than having him talk to someone local? Maybe he is afraid to talk to someone from in town?
Just who exactly are his friends? Chevra from another yeshiva- or mamesh street bums? Are they even Jewish?
There are so many outreach programs for Jewish kids who are on drug abuse or alcohol abuse. Also, I liked Z’hava’s idea of sending him to Israel. Especially if thats where he lived most of his life. Perhaps, there he will get better help.
In Israel- there are even more programs to help such teens.
And you don’t have to be in yeshiva. Let him roll it out over time. As i said in the beginning, these things are phases.
It will take maybe a year or two of him acting like he owns the world, but eventually, if there still is time, he will get back to yeshiva, finish and graduate and move on.
If after high school- he can always get his GED and then move on.
Kids don’t stay like this forever. They grow up eventually.
Let time tell. I know it’s hard, but sometimes thats the best you can do. I know many families who have kids who were on drugs, or hanging out with bad friends, and eventually these kids came back, went to a yeshiva in Israel and are doing quite well.
And even got married to a frum girl and is raising a family now.
Sometimes, they become more shtark this way.
I say you should concentrate on making sure your younger son doesn’t follow in his older brother’s footsteps. And even if your son comes home on shabbos in a car with a girl, embrace him and tell him how much you love him, but just keep a eye on him while he is there. Let him know that the house is there open to him, so long he doesn’t do anything drastic. Or steal anything, of course.
Just concentrate on your own family relationship that everyone stays on the same page. And that decisions are made with everyone’s approval. And if it involves the other kids, be open to them. Let them know upfront what you are doing. Don’t hide anything. Explain to them this is the situation, but that he is still accepted by everyone and welcomed home.
Perhaps, if you let yur other kids know they will always have a home to come to, no matter what happens- maybe they will forgo the idea of copying their older brother’s activities.
Thats the best advice I can give. Signing off now. Will check later for a response.
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