July 8, 2012 11:49 am at 11:49 am #1181822
Last night, my son bombarded me with all the things I did wrong his whole life. He’s angry with everyone in his life from his RY, mashgiach, yeshiva friends, Shul, parents, neighbors etc etc. At what point, if ever, does a teenager begin to look at himself honestly and say, “Maybe I’m too sensitive, maybe I’m too controling. Maybe it’s partly me”? As long as my son blames everyone in his life for leaving the derech, how will he ever come back? My husband and I are supposed to be ‘loving and accepting’, but my son is making life unbearable. With all the support I have, I still feel like I’m hanging by a thread. How are we supposed to survive this?July 8, 2012 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #1181823
Who is your son’s teenage hero?July 9, 2012 12:09 am at 12:09 am #1181824
WOW- all kids that go off the derech have someone that they are blaming..
funny thing is ALL my kids went thru the same system had the same menahalim.. etc..
why is one able to handle it and others not?
Answer is (as I explain to my husband- and not news..)
all kids are made up differently and handle situationns differently, others are more sensitive and all react differently..
I think my son started easing up and listening to me at about age 19.
He was also stubborn and told us in more ways than one ‘either accept me the way I am or to bad’
also full of blame. but I kept suggesting.. and all he would say is ‘we’ll see’
and one day I saw BH!
like I said, He is not on the same level as the rest of the family but at least he is not being difficult.
and yes, I keep meeting more and more mothers who are going thru the same thing..It’s really sad.
what is going on?July 9, 2012 4:56 am at 4:56 am #1181825
pcoz-I don’t think my son has a hero. But if I pressed it, probably it would be a fighter, like Bruce Lee, a singer, or a dancer from “Step Up”…why?
mom12-but how did you survive those years? I can barely manage each day, cause each day brings new ‘surprises’. Now he’s wearing a bracelet. I’m petrified of what’s to come…and I’ll have to go through this for another 3 years????July 9, 2012 7:19 am at 7:19 am #1181826
my son is wearing a necklace with a magen david.. and when he remembers he kisses it..
I cry and daven.. and talk to Hashem cuz no one else could help me.
After meeting all those other moms you see its not you that’s at fault. this is a mageifa of this dor!
ignore him. concentrate on your other children.
my niece is starting too. I believe she is sixteen or 17.
never home. more than one botton open and other simanim.. my sister is devastated but she is ignoring it bec these kids are doing it to bother you, and they are waiting for a comment so they can have a confrontation and an argument.July 9, 2012 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #1181827
mom12-Hashem yirachem. You are right, I also cry and daven to Hashem, it seems like only a nes will help my son. If only we could ignore him, but he is so chutzpadik and embarrases us at every opportunity. Do you think that kids do this kind of stuff to bother us? Maybe your sister should try to get her dgt to speak to someone now, before things get bigger. I’m thinking, if only my son would have spoken to someone years ago/opened up, maybe he would have worked through some of the issues that led to this…
BTW,my son went to look at 2 low pressure yeshivas. One is a bit more ‘serious’ than the other, bc it’s a half day of Torah learning, and the kids are still in black and white. They learn a profession in the afternoon, and they can sleep there. The other one is also a half day of learning but almost no limudei kodesh. But there is a lot of emotional support from the Rebbes, and the kids can basically wear what they want. I met the Rebbe, and thought he was good. I’m just afraid of the kinds of kids that will go there, plus he has to commute and still live at home. I’m trying to get him to consider other yeshivas, but he’s so DIFFICULT…July 9, 2012 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #1181828zahavasdadParticipant
Did you ever your son what he wants to doJuly 9, 2012 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #1181829EzratHashemMember
wow: imamotherJuly 9, 2012 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #1181830
EH-thanks, found it!July 9, 2012 11:10 pm at 11:10 pm #1181831
I once had to learn with a boy who was approximately in your son’s position. The boy’s parents sent him to an out of town kollel to try and get him away from things. It was an accomplishment for me if I could get him to learn half an hour in a morning seder.
If your son is agreeably willing to go to any sort of yeshiva at all you would be crazy to not jump at the opportunity.July 9, 2012 11:39 pm at 11:39 pm #1181832Imma613Participant
If your son is even interested in looking at alternate, low-pressure yeshivas, that is a VERY good thing. Go with it and show him you respect his choices.
Don’t worry about “the types of kids who go there.” your son is already one of those types or will be soon enough. Give him the environment he needs to thrive.
I would have him dorm, however. It will take a lot of the daily pressure off of you. Is there an option like the second school you mentioned that offers dorming?July 10, 2012 5:27 am at 5:27 am #1181833
pcoz and Imma613-Of course we are thrilled that he is considering some sort of program for next year, that in itself is an accomplishment. However, I think we’d all prefer that he dorm there, but the one he saw that offers dorming is too much learning for him at this point. The other yeshiva seems more nurturing, but the classes are simple secular learning, with no pressure to even show up. And since he’s almost impossible to wake up in the morning, I’m not looking forward to another year of battling him in the morning to get out of bed and catch a bus. I’m hoping he’ll agree to look at a few more places.July 10, 2012 6:15 am at 6:15 am #1181834
how about a reward system?July 10, 2012 8:17 am at 8:17 am #1181835
pcoz- exactly what kind of reward would you think suitable?
wow- I like the dorm idea too.. but he just might leave to soon cuz of the ‘too much learning’.
If your son ‘enjoys’ the other yeshiva and he is getting what he needs in support he will be motivated to get up in the morning and go. You did not mention the hours of the lower pressure yeshiva.. Do they keep them till late enough at night- so they cannot be on the street for too long..if he has to be in yeshiva at a certain time and he enjoys it, he will be in bed semi on time so that he can get up and be where he got to be..
just promise some money in the pushka and daven that he comes up with a decision.
my son BH is still wearing black and white although its in the form of t-shirts and polo shirts (which no one wears in my family) and black denim pants.. You have to see the way some of his friends are dressed-coming from chassidish families as well- I just daven it doesnt get worse than this.. he BH still has some friends that kept the ‘lvush’ of the past, so I am hoping he will change back- I am not sure how soon that may be because he keeps mocking that code of dress and the comments that go with it- funny thing he is always mocking a melamed or a menahel from the past- so without realizing what he is doing he is releasing the origin of the pain..July 10, 2012 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #1181836
pcoz-reward him with what for what?
mom12-the yeshiva that offers the dorming is not as ‘open’ as the other yeshiva, and the kids are all in black and white. I think they learn til around 3 or 4pm. If my son could handle it, I would prefer that one. The second yeshiva ‘learns’ until about between 12pm and 3pm, depending on the day, but it’s almost no limudei kodesh. The menahel explained that kids like this have a bad association about learning gemara and that’s why it’s minimal. But even though they were very warm and welcoming, it just seems like it’s nothing substantial. You can come late, leave early, learn, not learn..anything goes. Just what my son wants right now. Oh, and you can wear anything you want (Ugh…). I don’t really know what to do…July 10, 2012 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #1181837
go for the second yeshiva and I promise you you will be matzliach
with a trip overseas for getting up by 10 and davening for half a yearJuly 10, 2012 11:59 pm at 11:59 pm #1181838interjectionParticipant
write or wrong: im behind pcozJuly 11, 2012 4:46 am at 4:46 am #1181839
pcoz and interjection-nice idea,except he wouldn’t do it, and he wouldn’t be interested. Anyway, I’m not sure it would be right to force him to daven when he hates it. I’d rather ‘bribe’ him to stay with counseling. As far as going to the 1st yeshiva, I’m just reasoning with him that he shouldn’t give up on himself, that it would be hard for him to commute every day to the 2nd yeshiva, and perhaps he’d be happier in a dorm situation where he could also learn a profession and only learn half a day..July 11, 2012 5:49 am at 5:49 am #1181841
he wouldn’t do it, and he wouldn’t be interested – ask him
I’m not sure it would be right to force him to daven when he hates it – hergel naaseh teva – people get used to doing the things that they do
I’d rather ‘bribe’ him to stay with counseling – there is no tachlis in that
please ignore if off the markJuly 11, 2012 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #1181842
pcoz-we’ve already promised him things we know he would want, and it doesn’t move him. Even if we were matzliach in coercing him, what would be the point? He’d just be going through the motions. That was part of our mistake the past few years. We were offering all kinds of incentives in order for him to go to yeshiva on time, pray on time. So he ‘went through the motions’, feeling bribed into it, hating it all the way. We never got to the core problem. That’s why I think counseling is the more important way to goJuly 11, 2012 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #1181843golferParticipant
Write or wrong, you’re still his mother in spite of everything, so follow your heart.
Just a thought- bribing him to go to Yeshiva when he hates going there, probably won’t accomplish much. Ditto for bribing him to get up on time for (even a late) Shachris. Many teenagers have a huge problem with waking up on time; even solid learning bachurim, and even those in the secular world where the issue is a job or school and there is no zman tefillah. Maybe you can try to encourage him to attend minyan for mincha and/ or maariv, and show your appreciation when he goes. I know there is the issue of zman tefillah in the morning, and tefillin, but at this point in your life Shachris may be a losing battle. It may be helpful to ignore what’s impossible and focus on what might bring you AND your son some satisfaction.July 11, 2012 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #1181844
WoW and Mom12: I am in no way trying to diminish your troubles or anything, but the priorities that sometimes leak through honestly disturb me. You both have sons who are going through extremely difficult times and who need support and help in many ways? Who cares what they wear??? Wouldn’t you rather they be attending a Yeshivah (or any program) and not wear black and white? Wouldn’t you rather they hung out with a crowd that respects Torah and learning even if they wear colored shirts? WoW, wouldn’t you rather he went to any program at all, regardless of what he wears? 1 hour of learning in a polo or t-shirt and jeans is worth more than an entire day of doing nothing or C”V worse, even if he does that in black and white.
I get that it’s very nice to have a community with an accepted mode of dress and being in that community can do some great things for the Yiddishkeit of the people in it. But these are your sons. Don’t lose sight of everything else in their lives solely because of the way they dress.July 11, 2012 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #1181845
golfer-thanks for the suggestions, but my son hasn’t been praying for a while now, and doesn’t plan on starting again any time soon. He quit yeshiva, and is only considering this very low pressure ‘yeshiva’ where he would have to commute. I’m not offering any bribes for this. There are other, better low pressure yeshivas, but I agree with you that there would be no point in bribing him to go there bc he still hates learning at this point.July 11, 2012 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #1181846golferParticipant
I’m so sorry to hear, w or w. I guess you, as the Yiddishe Mamme, will have to do the davening for both of you for now. Hopefully not for too long.
And i have to agree with Sam. Don’t let societal pressure regarding dress codes let you lose sight of your child behind the jeans or tee.July 11, 2012 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #1181847
I am not at present a parent but I hope i can answer with enough sensitivity. I also havent read all 600 or so previous posts. I just wanted to add that you shouldnt overlook the importance of an emotionally suppurtive yeshiva. i mean this by mainstream yeshiva and of course in a situation like this. Of course each and every sitiuation is so different but in many cases the factor that the childwanted to dress different is because the person feels that they are or want to be different (for many or few reasons). Having someone in your life thats called “rebbi” and dresses like a rabbi thats friendly and cares about the student,and the student starts to respect them -that can totally change the way they view other people who dress like their “rabbi”. I wouldnt worry about how much lemudei kodesh they learn. he has his whole life ahead of him for that, now is the time to try to get him to have a more positive attitude towards torah. (of course the rebbi should be teaching him torah when possible, and i would trust the rebbi to know when that is).
I have a place to suggest but thats not my point here. my point is that we should remember that the “system” does not fit for all and we have to decide which parts of “going off of the path”
are “dangerous” and which parts are just searching for another path.
I wish you much hatzlacha and strength. i just want to add themt my rebbi always told us to look out for the ones that dont want to fit in- we call them leadersJuly 11, 2012 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #1181848
Sam2-Obviously, from the way you put it, it would make sense to say that learning anything (ie in jeans) is better than not learning in black and white. But my community is black and white, and a person who rejects that look for a t-shirt with jeans, is rejecting yiddishkeit. The reason I care what he wears, is bc it tells me where he’s at. Of course I’d prefer that he hang out with a crowd that respects Torah learning, wearing colored shirts…even pink shirts with green polka dots. But there’s no such thing where I live. And it’s not just me and my community that think black and white means something, and jeans mean something else. My son knows this too, and that’s why he’s rejecting the black and white, bc it’s symbolic of his underlying feeling to reject yiddishkeit. The clothes are merely a reflection of the feeling. Perhaps if we were modern, and my kids grew up in jeans, then it wouldn’t be a statement of rejection like it is growing up in a haredi environment.July 11, 2012 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #1181849
w.o.w. – what is the counselling meant to accomplish?July 11, 2012 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #1181850
Of course it is a statement of rejection. But its a rejection based on a misunderstanding. His view of yiddishkeit that he learned from his neighbors and schools is a very specific one which doesn’t work for him (although it works for many others.) being an individual and being frum is not an contradiction. But he needs support from rabbis that understand this concept.July 12, 2012 1:21 am at 1:21 am #1181851
WoW: Are you sure your son thinks of it as a rejection? Or are you projecting that on him because that is how you would feel? Your line, “Oh, and you can wear anything you want (Ugh…)” is what bothered me the most. Because that sounded like your opinion on the clothing, and not what it means to your son. Maybe he just wants to be comfortable. It could be that to him the rejection of black and white is a rejection of Judaism. But it could be that it’s not. Don’t make the clothes a bigger deal than they have to be.July 12, 2012 5:21 am at 5:21 am #1181852
wow- I just thought of this..
did you ever write a letter to your son.
no blame- just explaining how bad you feel that he is so miserable.
How it hurts you that he is not going in line with the Torah or how he was brought up. You are sorry if he feels you wronged him and he will always be your son, and you always love him and will always try to help him..
My son just told me about some plan he has to take some kind of long trip during the 9 days.
I try to explain to him that one does not take long trips, go swimming etc.. bec of ‘sakana’.
well, he doesn’t think driving 10 hrs and meeting a ‘goy-idol’ some joe, that one of his friends introduced him to- eppes a tv ‘shpeeler’
is a sakana or a vacation..
I said what I had to. the rest I talk to Hashem that these plans should fail!!
All of you that commented about the dress code- like wow mentioned.
the way a person dresses on the outside reflects what he is on the inside. especially if you were brought up one way and then change the dress code.
YES! I would be very happy if my son would learn a few hours a day. daven before chatzos without eating before- no he is not weak!-
and perhaps learn some dinnim of what one may and may not do at any given time..
the dress does not bother me.. in his case its what it reflects that breaks my heart.July 12, 2012 6:29 am at 6:29 am #1181853justThinkParticipant
I agree with most of the posters above- don’t worry about the clothes (the bracelet does worry me a little), don’t worry about how many hours he learns, but worry about his attitude. He sounds like an angry kid trying to escape. I said this before and I believe it’s true; you keep on bringing up that wearing colors is rebellious for the chareidi community, therefore this shows where he’s at, and he’s rejecting everything. Your right- he is rejecting everything, FROM THE CHAREIDI COMMUNITY! Give the kid (I don’t know how- maybe something in America) a way to leave the chareidi world and see a modern way of life. Get him away from what he hates. Yes, it could be that by wearing colors he is showing he’s rejecting everything, but maybe the reason he’s rejecting everything is because he thinks “it’s so stupid that these people want to control your whole life, what colors you wear, what music you listen to, what kipa you wear, how big your peyos are, if i need my tzitzis in or out, decide how many hours you have to learn, etc… Why should I be part of such a lame, controlling world?” This is a very typical attitude from OTD teens, so get him into an open and accepting world! Don’t judge if he wears jeans! It will only turn him off more!July 12, 2012 7:37 am at 7:37 am #1181854
yishtabach shemo-I agree with what you said, that even if my son is in any yeshiva where the Rebbes can be positive role models for him, it could be a good influence on him, and could hopefully undo the damage he went through. I would be open to suggestions, if you know of any places in Israel..
Sam2-it isn’t just my opinion, like you say. Even read some of the other posts. Maybe not in a mixed community, but certainly in a homogenous community where everyone wears the same thing: To change the dress code means a rejection of the lifestyle of that community. The proof of this is that my son left the derech of Torah!
mom12-the letter might be a good idea, bc he’s not too happy to talk to anyone. But on occasion, we do have those kinds of conversaions, although they don’t seem to make any dent. Hopefully your son will hear you, and cancel the trip. Today, one of the bachurim (finally!) called from his old yeshiva, and he told my son where everyone got accepted for next year. He even told my son that if he wants, the RY will still try to get him in to a good yeshiva. But my son told him no, without any remorse or regret…July 12, 2012 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #1181856SpeakerParticipant
He can help!!
Hatzlocho RabaJuly 12, 2012 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #1181857SpeakerParticipant
He can help!!
Mod – I tried the link and it did not work so I edited out, try just typing the address with no link.July 12, 2012 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #1181858
Speaker-I found it online, thanks for the suggestion. But I’m not sure he would help me if I live in Israel…July 12, 2012 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #1181859
JustThink-You are right in theory, and I’ve told my son, if you don’t want to be haredi, then don’t. But why reject Torah completely, you just don’t have to be as machmeer as we are. But in practice, in doesn’t work. It’s almost as if (and it’s not just my son, it’s pretty much EVERY kid who goes off the derech from a haredi family over here), that the kid has to reject the whole thing, in order to find out what he wants (if he wants) to come back to. And I have seen some kids from haredi families come back, but not to the same level as the parents. But for some reason, they couldn’t take that direct route in the first place, and avoid going off the derech. They had to do it in this painful way, unfortunately…July 12, 2012 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #1181860
WoW: It comes from a certain attitude that the kid has, which we can even see in your post. You statement of, “You just don’t have to be as machmeer as we are” just rings false to him. He’s been taught his whole life that the more Machmir the better and that if you’re not perfect then you’re terrible (I remember once attending a “Mussar schmooze” where the speaker explained how someone who follows every Halachah to the letter but settles for the B’dieved sometimes or who isn’t Mehader to be Yotzei Kol Hade’os (that phrase will stay with me forever) is Yoreish Gehinnom. ) Which is a great attitude for those who can do it. But for kids who grow up this way it’s hard to reconcile that with any option of being Meikil or even societally different. Because when everything is lumped together, and a Mechalel Shabbos is the same not Frum Jew as, for example, someone who is willing to eat a Rabbanut Hashgacha, then telling him that he can be Meikil on something just rings false. Because to the way he was taught, being Meikil is the same as not doing anything. So why do anything halfway? (That’s my theory, at least, on why it seems like Chareidi kids who go OTD go so much farther off and why they often seem to become almost a caricature of everything they were taught that not-Frum people are.) That being said, I honestly have no idea how to make your son see a potential halfway. I’m sorry. If I think of anything, though, I will post it here.July 13, 2012 2:40 am at 2:40 am #1181861
Sam2 – glad you said that, I’ve been thinking along the same lines. The offers to him are meaningless becuase his interpretation of them is ‘you’re a failure but here’s a shortcut that might see you through’July 13, 2012 5:35 am at 5:35 am #1181862
Sam2-I’m not sure I agree with your theory, bc we never made any of our kids feel that being machmeer is the only way to go. We never gave the messge, “If you’re not perfect, you’re terrible”, chas v’shalom. We always prefaced things by saying that we’re machmeer, for example, we go by Rabbenu Tam. Some of our neighbors don’t, so at first my kids thought they were mechalel Shabbos, but I explained that both ways are okay, it’s just that we decided to take a stricter approach, and when they get married, they’ll decide whether or not to go by Rabbenu Tam. My kids know that we do things a bit more than what’s required. We never gave the message that it’s our way, or nothing. Especially since we have friends and family that aren’t as strict.July 13, 2012 6:26 am at 6:26 am #1181863
wow- Even if you had these discussions write taletter.
He may not react and you might even think he never read it but if you write it with love tears it will touch him.
you won’t have the answering back on a letter as well as going off on a tangent..
he might re-read it in the future, and perhaps at that time he will be more acceptng and maybe he will start making subtle changes.
If possible the ‘friends’ should keep calling and inviting him for their get togethers or trips or what have you, even if he turns down the invitation. but not too often or they might be pushing it too far.
maybe you can call this Avi Fishoff on the phone.
or maybe he can suggest someone in Israel,
I hope to be calling him- Thanx, Speaker..
did you ever try this Weingort fellow I suggested a few months ago?
maybe now, that, unfortunately he is more downhill this yeshiva might work for him.. just a thought..July 13, 2012 10:47 am at 10:47 am #1181864
mom12-I will try the letter idea. My husband and I were just having this discussion about how my son has been in this school system for many years, so why did they take so long to call my son? In the 3 weeks he’s been home, only now the mashgiach and one of the bachurim called. It’s true that the RY called a week or 2 ago, but I think they should have made more of an effort to keep the connection. My husband thinks that anyway, my son would say no to any invitations or efforts to mekarev him. But there’s an expression that goes, “Just because the message wasn’t received, doesn’t mean it wasn’t worth sending”.
I haven’t yet made contact with “Shalom Rav” or “Home Sweet Home”, but we did contact 2 other low pressure yeshivas in the north of Israel. But we have to get my son to consider ‘checking them out”, and so far, he won’t.
Wishing you all a Good Shabbos….July 13, 2012 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #1181866
go to Priority-1.org and click on the get advise button. The Rosh Yeshiva is in Israel now. I can try to set up a meeting with your son. Mention that a Talmud of his sent you to this website. HatzlachaJuly 13, 2012 10:37 pm at 10:37 pm #1181867
ask if someone from the yeshiva can call your son and invite him to check the place outJuly 14, 2012 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #1181868
ys-thanks for the website, I sent an email.
mom12-good idea. I think the website ys mentioned is a good resource. I just listened to one of the shiurim called “Teens in Crises”. Try to listen to it, it gave me some insight and a bit of chizuk….
We had a really difficult Shabbos, my son didn’t come home until 5am. I’m still recuperating…July 15, 2012 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #1181869
Just to re-iterate a point that has been mentioned a few times. Lephi aniyus daati the answer to the question asked at the chasuna (a few posts ago) – what is going on? Is that if shamayim (ruchniyos… whatever you want to call it) is painted in such a demarcated gridlike fashion that you absolutely have to fit in in a very particular way to be called a good person, then that will drive away normal children who simply don’t relate to / can’t relate to such a circumscribed mode of existence.
I am not offering any solutions becuase I don’t have any, but I am absolutely convinced that that is the answer to ‘what is going on’July 16, 2012 7:39 am at 7:39 am #1181870
pcoz-I’ll tell you the truth, the more time that passes by, the more I see that my son’s choice to go OTD had nothing to do with any of the things we mentioned. My kids don’t think they have to be perfect in mitsvos for Hashem to see us as a good person. Every Jew, regardless of their level of observance is inherently good. Most of the mothers I met seemed easy going, not judgemental or critical. And the mothers I know personally who are going through this, are also down to earth and yirat Shamayim. A shiur I listened to by Rabbi Shaya Cohen said it’s bc the kids today don’t feel simcha in their Judaism. Perhaps they feel the stresses/struggles of the parents, or perhaps in this world of advanced technology, spirituality got lost. I think my son’s choice has more to do with a lack of self esteem, and not ever feeling like he fit in to the yeshiva he attended. I think it began when the kids made fun of him, and it left such a scar, that bc he is so sensitive, he was never able to forget it or forgive the kids for it. I see him with the crowd he’s with now, and he’s a different person. He’s much more talkative, confident, and secure. He was never like that with the yeshiva kids, he was always so quiet and shy. The proof is that he feels no connection to the yeshiva or the boys after all these years.July 16, 2012 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #1181871
WoW: If that’s the case, maybe you can talk to him about entering a lower-level Yeshivah. You said he’s smart. Maybe put him somewhere where he’d be one of the smartest and most knowledgeable kids. Let him be in a situation where other kids look up to him and where he can feel useful, important, and involved. Maybe see if he can enjoy Judaism from that perspective.July 16, 2012 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #1181872
Sam2-that’s an interesting point. Maybe you’re right, that’s exactly what he needs. But it all depends upon him, if he’s willing to go. We’re doing a lot of the foot work, trying to find places that might be acceptable to him, and then hopefully he will go look at these places with his father and pick one. They already saw 2, but there are at least 2 or 3 more that I think might be better. I just keep praying….July 16, 2012 11:11 pm at 11:11 pm #1181873
Fair call, 200 years ago we weren’t all living in cramped city quarters, we had something called sky and grass and sheep and birds and laneways.
Who says everyone can stay spiritually attuned and live in a blaring psychadelic mind-numbingly functional society, it’s not easyJuly 17, 2012 12:46 am at 12:46 am #1181874
put money in the pushka when they go.
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