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Who is your son’s teenage hero?
WOW- all kids that go off the derech have someone that they are blaming..
funny thing is ALL my kids went thru the same system had the same menahalim.. etc..
why is one able to handle it and others not?
Answer is (as I explain to my husband- and not news..)
all kids are made up differently and handle situationns differently, others are more sensitive and all react differently..
I think my son started easing up and listening to me at about age 19.
He was also stubborn and told us in more ways than one ‘either accept me the way I am or to bad’
also full of blame. but I kept suggesting.. and all he would say is ‘we’ll see’
and one day I saw BH!
like I said, He is not on the same level as the rest of the family but at least he is not being difficult.
and yes, I keep meeting more and more mothers who are going thru the same thing..It’s really sad.
what is going on?
my son is wearing a necklace with a magen david.. and when he remembers he kisses it..
I cry and daven.. and talk to Hashem cuz no one else could help me.
After meeting all those other moms you see its not you that’s at fault. this is a mageifa of this dor!
ignore him. concentrate on your other children.
my niece is starting too. I believe she is sixteen or 17.
never home. more than one botton open and other simanim.. my sister is devastated but she is ignoring it bec these kids are doing it to bother you, and they are waiting for a comment so they can have a confrontation and an argument.
Did you ever your son what he wants to do
wow: imamother
I once had to learn with a boy who was approximately in your son’s position. The boy’s parents sent him to an out of town kollel to try and get him away from things. It was an accomplishment for me if I could get him to learn half an hour in a morning seder.
If your son is agreeably willing to go to any sort of yeshiva at all you would be crazy to not jump at the opportunity.
If your son is even interested in looking at alternate, low-pressure yeshivas, that is a VERY good thing. Go with it and show him you respect his choices.
Don’t worry about “the types of kids who go there.” your son is already one of those types or will be soon enough. Give him the environment he needs to thrive.
I would have him dorm, however. It will take a lot of the daily pressure off of you. Is there an option like the second school you mentioned that offers dorming?
how about a reward system?
pcoz- exactly what kind of reward would you think suitable?
wow- I like the dorm idea too.. but he just might leave to soon cuz of the ‘too much learning’.
If your son ‘enjoys’ the other yeshiva and he is getting what he needs in support he will be motivated to get up in the morning and go. You did not mention the hours of the lower pressure yeshiva.. Do they keep them till late enough at night- so they cannot be on the street for too long..if he has to be in yeshiva at a certain time and he enjoys it, he will be in bed semi on time so that he can get up and be where he got to be..
just promise some money in the pushka and daven that he comes up with a decision.
my son BH is still wearing black and white although its in the form of t-shirts and polo shirts (which no one wears in my family) and black denim pants.. You have to see the way some of his friends are dressed-coming from chassidish families as well- I just daven it doesnt get worse than this.. he BH still has some friends that kept the ‘lvush’ of the past, so I am hoping he will change back- I am not sure how soon that may be because he keeps mocking that code of dress and the comments that go with it- funny thing he is always mocking a melamed or a menahel from the past- so without realizing what he is doing he is releasing the origin of the pain..
go for the second yeshiva and I promise you you will be matzliach
with a trip overseas for getting up by 10 and davening for half a year
write or wrong: im behind pcoz
he wouldn’t do it, and he wouldn’t be interested – ask him
I’m not sure it would be right to force him to daven when he hates it – hergel naaseh teva – people get used to doing the things that they do
I’d rather ‘bribe’ him to stay with counseling – there is no tachlis in that
please ignore if off the mark
Write or wrong, you’re still his mother in spite of everything, so follow your heart.
Just a thought- bribing him to go to Yeshiva when he hates going there, probably won’t accomplish much. Ditto for bribing him to get up on time for (even a late) Shachris. Many teenagers have a huge problem with waking up on time; even solid learning bachurim, and even those in the secular world where the issue is a job or school and there is no zman tefillah. Maybe you can try to encourage him to attend minyan for mincha and/ or maariv, and show your appreciation when he goes. I know there is the issue of zman tefillah in the morning, and tefillin, but at this point in your life Shachris may be a losing battle. It may be helpful to ignore what’s impossible and focus on what might bring you AND your son some satisfaction.
WoW and Mom12: I am in no way trying to diminish your troubles or anything, but the priorities that sometimes leak through honestly disturb me. You both have sons who are going through extremely difficult times and who need support and help in many ways? Who cares what they wear??? Wouldn’t you rather they be attending a Yeshivah (or any program) and not wear black and white? Wouldn’t you rather they hung out with a crowd that respects Torah and learning even if they wear colored shirts? WoW, wouldn’t you rather he went to any program at all, regardless of what he wears? 1 hour of learning in a polo or t-shirt and jeans is worth more than an entire day of doing nothing or C”V worse, even if he does that in black and white.
I get that it’s very nice to have a community with an accepted mode of dress and being in that community can do some great things for the Yiddishkeit of the people in it. But these are your sons. Don’t lose sight of everything else in their lives solely because of the way they dress.
I’m so sorry to hear, w or w. I guess you, as the Yiddishe Mamme, will have to do the davening for both of you for now. Hopefully not for too long.
And i have to agree with Sam. Don’t let societal pressure regarding dress codes let you lose sight of your child behind the jeans or tee.
I am not at present a parent but I hope i can answer with enough sensitivity. I also havent read all 600 or so previous posts. I just wanted to add that you shouldnt overlook the importance of an emotionally suppurtive yeshiva. i mean this by mainstream yeshiva and of course in a situation like this. Of course each and every sitiuation is so different but in many cases the factor that the childwanted to dress different is because the person feels that they are or want to be different (for many or few reasons). Having someone in your life thats called “rebbi” and dresses like a rabbi thats friendly and cares about the student,and the student starts to respect them -that can totally change the way they view other people who dress like their “rabbi”. I wouldnt worry about how much lemudei kodesh they learn. he has his whole life ahead of him for that, now is the time to try to get him to have a more positive attitude towards torah. (of course the rebbi should be teaching him torah when possible, and i would trust the rebbi to know when that is).
I have a place to suggest but thats not my point here. my point is that we should remember that the “system” does not fit for all and we have to decide which parts of “going off of the path”
are “dangerous” and which parts are just searching for another path.
I wish you much hatzlacha and strength. i just want to add themt my rebbi always told us to look out for the ones that dont want to fit in- we call them leaders
w.o.w. – what is the counselling meant to accomplish?
Of course it is a statement of rejection. But its a rejection based on a misunderstanding. His view of yiddishkeit that he learned from his neighbors and schools is a very specific one which doesn’t work for him (although it works for many others.) being an individual and being frum is not an contradiction. But he needs support from rabbis that understand this concept.
WoW: Are you sure your son thinks of it as a rejection? Or are you projecting that on him because that is how you would feel? Your line, “Oh, and you can wear anything you want (Ugh…)” is what bothered me the most. Because that sounded like your opinion on the clothing, and not what it means to your son. Maybe he just wants to be comfortable. It could be that to him the rejection of black and white is a rejection of Judaism. But it could be that it’s not. Don’t make the clothes a bigger deal than they have to be.
wow- I just thought of this..
did you ever write a letter to your son.
no blame- just explaining how bad you feel that he is so miserable.
How it hurts you that he is not going in line with the Torah or how he was brought up. You are sorry if he feels you wronged him and he will always be your son, and you always love him and will always try to help him..
My son just told me about some plan he has to take some kind of long trip during the 9 days.
I try to explain to him that one does not take long trips, go swimming etc.. bec of ‘sakana’.
well, he doesn’t think driving 10 hrs and meeting a ‘goy-idol’ some joe, that one of his friends introduced him to- eppes a tv ‘shpeeler’
is a sakana or a vacation..
I said what I had to. the rest I talk to Hashem that these plans should fail!!
All of you that commented about the dress code- like wow mentioned.
the way a person dresses on the outside reflects what he is on the inside. especially if you were brought up one way and then change the dress code.
YES! I would be very happy if my son would learn a few hours a day. daven before chatzos without eating before- no he is not weak!-
and perhaps learn some dinnim of what one may and may not do at any given time..
the dress does not bother me.. in his case its what it reflects that breaks my heart.
I agree with most of the posters above- don’t worry about the clothes (the bracelet does worry me a little), don’t worry about how many hours he learns, but worry about his attitude. He sounds like an angry kid trying to escape. I said this before and I believe it’s true; you keep on bringing up that wearing colors is rebellious for the chareidi community, therefore this shows where he’s at, and he’s rejecting everything. Your right- he is rejecting everything, FROM THE CHAREIDI COMMUNITY! Give the kid (I don’t know how- maybe something in America) a way to leave the chareidi world and see a modern way of life. Get him away from what he hates. Yes, it could be that by wearing colors he is showing he’s rejecting everything, but maybe the reason he’s rejecting everything is because he thinks “it’s so stupid that these people want to control your whole life, what colors you wear, what music you listen to, what kipa you wear, how big your peyos are, if i need my tzitzis in or out, decide how many hours you have to learn, etc… Why should I be part of such a lame, controlling world?” This is a very typical attitude from OTD teens, so get him into an open and accepting world! Don’t judge if he wears jeans! It will only turn him off more!
He can help!!
Hatzlocho Raba
He can help!!
Hatzlocho Raba
Mod – I tried the link and it did not work so I edited out, try just typing the address with no link.
WoW: It comes from a certain attitude that the kid has, which we can even see in your post. You statement of, “You just don’t have to be as machmeer as we are” just rings false to him. He’s been taught his whole life that the more Machmir the better and that if you’re not perfect then you’re terrible (I remember once attending a “Mussar schmooze” where the speaker explained how someone who follows every Halachah to the letter but settles for the B’dieved sometimes or who isn’t Mehader to be Yotzei Kol Hade’os (that phrase will stay with me forever) is Yoreish Gehinnom. ) Which is a great attitude for those who can do it. But for kids who grow up this way it’s hard to reconcile that with any option of being Meikil or even societally different. Because when everything is lumped together, and a Mechalel Shabbos is the same not Frum Jew as, for example, someone who is willing to eat a Rabbanut Hashgacha, then telling him that he can be Meikil on something just rings false. Because to the way he was taught, being Meikil is the same as not doing anything. So why do anything halfway? (That’s my theory, at least, on why it seems like Chareidi kids who go OTD go so much farther off and why they often seem to become almost a caricature of everything they were taught that not-Frum people are.) That being said, I honestly have no idea how to make your son see a potential halfway. I’m sorry. If I think of anything, though, I will post it here.
Sam2 – glad you said that, I’ve been thinking along the same lines. The offers to him are meaningless becuase his interpretation of them is ‘you’re a failure but here’s a shortcut that might see you through’
wow- Even if you had these discussions write taletter.
He may not react and you might even think he never read it but if you write it with love tears it will touch him.
you won’t have the answering back on a letter as well as going off on a tangent..
he might re-read it in the future, and perhaps at that time he will be more acceptng and maybe he will start making subtle changes.
If possible the ‘friends’ should keep calling and inviting him for their get togethers or trips or what have you, even if he turns down the invitation. but not too often or they might be pushing it too far.
You understand..
maybe you can call this Avi Fishoff on the phone.
or maybe he can suggest someone in Israel,
I hope to be calling him- Thanx, Speaker..
did you ever try this Weingort fellow I suggested a few months ago?
maybe now, that, unfortunately he is more downhill this yeshiva might work for him.. just a thought..
go to Priority-1.org and click on the get advise button. The Rosh Yeshiva is in Israel now. I can try to set up a meeting with your son. Mention that a Talmud of his sent you to this website. Hatzlacha
ask if someone from the yeshiva can call your son and invite him to check the place out
Just to re-iterate a point that has been mentioned a few times. Lephi aniyus daati the answer to the question asked at the chasuna (a few posts ago) – what is going on? Is that if shamayim (ruchniyos… whatever you want to call it) is painted in such a demarcated gridlike fashion that you absolutely have to fit in in a very particular way to be called a good person, then that will drive away normal children who simply don’t relate to / can’t relate to such a circumscribed mode of existence.
I am not offering any solutions becuase I don’t have any, but I am absolutely convinced that that is the answer to ‘what is going on’
WoW: If that’s the case, maybe you can talk to him about entering a lower-level Yeshivah. You said he’s smart. Maybe put him somewhere where he’d be one of the smartest and most knowledgeable kids. Let him be in a situation where other kids look up to him and where he can feel useful, important, and involved. Maybe see if he can enjoy Judaism from that perspective.
Fair call, 200 years ago we weren’t all living in cramped city quarters, we had something called sky and grass and sheep and birds and laneways.
Who says everyone can stay spiritually attuned and live in a blaring psychadelic mind-numbingly functional society, it’s not easy
put money in the pushka when they go.
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