Going off the Derech

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  • #1182937

    write or wrong
    Participant

    interjection-I hope you are right. I can’t wait for some maturity to ‘kick in’. I just wonder, if there are any statistics correlating the age at which a child goes off the derech and the chances of coming back, or if ‘how long they are off’ affects the chances of coming back. Also, does it matter how severely they went OTD?

    My husband told me not to pay attention to statistics, hakol m’Shamayim…

    #1182938

    interjection
    Participant

    Even if you find a good study Statistics don’t prove anything. Although they show trends they are in no ways definitive. And no, it does not matter how far he went off.

    #1182940

    superme
    Member

    Keep davening!! If u want you can send the mods his name Ben your name to email it to me and I’ll daven for him- saying “daven for me and ill daven for you” rly works

    #1182941

    interjection
    Participant

    Superme

    You shouldn’t be so zealous with contacting with people on the Internet.

    #1182942

    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, please understand that everyone and anyone would love to believe that they are experts in this field but more than anything they only think they are and are more concerned with showing off how much they don’t know than actually doing something about the situation.

    What is the point of such an article, to give up on K’lal Yisroel? Does this show that this person has any bitachon and emunah in Hakadosh Baruch Hu? Does this person have any Ahavas Yisroel that they could even say such a thing? B’emet??? Who is in charge here?? Who runs the world the people this person spoke to??? Please, give me a break. There are no statistics on this subject because there can’t be. Every day the statistics change. Every day there is a new baal teshuva. Every day someone finds their way back home. Who is to say which one of Hashem’s children that one is. And who is to say which day that will be. That article is pure shtusim!! Please throw it away. That is only someone from the outside looking in. They know nothing. Ask Avi his own statistics, he can give you a better answer. I am quite sure that author never once spoke to him and asked him his success record.

    Let me remind you WOW of one thing. Kids who go off the derech don’t do so over night and they don’t return over night. It is a process. Someone pushed them off and they have to find the right sheliach to show them the way back home. There is no time limit on doing teshuva, and there is no time limit on finding your way back home. As long as the door is open, they will know how to come home. Hashem doesn’t shut the door and parents shouldn’t either. Stop reading negative information, if you see it walk away from it. If you hear it walk away from it. Surround yourself with positive thoughts and positive energy. As I have said before, your son is going through his nisayon and you are going through your own. Your faith is being tested as much as your son’s is. Your husband is right.

    How did you feel when you read this garbage. This was a personal attack on your emunah and bitachon! My reaction would be “How dare they? Who do they think they are printing such garbage? Don’t they know that it is Hashem above who rules the world? How dare they say that? Hashem is in charge and it is through my tefilos and his rachmonus that things will turn around. How foolish and stupid this person must be to say these things.”

    So WOW, take chizuk from your husband, from Avi and from myself if you feel I am helping you, and don’t step into that nasty pool of negativity. OK?

    #1182943

    write or wrong
    Participant

    OK

    You are right that it was an attack on my emunah, but I just spoke with someone who gave me a huge emunah boost. I asked her, how could it be from Shamayim that my son went OTD? Does that mean Hashem wanted my son to go OTD? And how is his going OTD l’tovah? She said all the circumstances that lead to his going OTD were pre-ordained bc he was meant to have this nisayon. This is the path my child needs to go on, for whatever reason. It is my child’s tikkun, and I can’t change it. (I always thought that it can’t be l’tovah bc my son’s not doing the mitzvos), but it is l’tovah bc it is a tikkun for him, as well as for me and my husband. My job, she said, is to love and accept him (and accept the nisayon with simcha, knowing that it is a tikkun for all of us), and daven for his return.

    I know you guys have all been telling me this in different ways for the past 10 months, but truthfully, I need to keep reminding myself of it bc every once in a while, I start to feel guilty or depressed that things aren’t the way they used to be. Usually this happens every time I see a yeshiva bachur in black and white, or I’ll pass my son’s old yeshiva, or I’ll see another kid from his class…who’s now doing great in yeshiva gedola….

    #1182944

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    That is very normal, write or wrong, to feel sad when you see kids from his class or pass by his old school. I can relate. We are only human. Just try not to let it get you down.

    #1182945

    superme
    Member

    interjection- if your following my posts correctly i needed a number from the purpleone for a teen at risk/friend so mods werent letting it through so asked mods to email it and for write or wrong the mods can email me the “tehillem/davening name” i wasnt becoming in contact with anyone hear read CAREFULLY

    #1182946

    write or wrong
    Participant

    superme-interjection was only concerned for your safety. Even though your intentions were to daven for my son (which I appreciate!), by ‘just’ exchanging emails and names, it’s a kind of ‘connecting’ outside the coffee room…. 🙂

    #1182947

    ThePurpleOne
    Member

    write or wrong-

    btw i daven 4 ur son every day n hashivenu and shma koleinu:)

    #1182948

    superme
    Member

    Write or wrong- I dontplan on exchanging emails not at all!!!!!! I don’t just give my name or emailor anything out what I saidwas that if you post your sons name here to daven and if mods let it thru goodie not then askthe mods to just email me the davening name not yr name or email no!

    Superme, please reread the Rules of the Coffee room. We do not facilitate email exchanges of any kind of information.

    #1182949

    superme
    Member

    Purpleone- u have the tehillem name or davening name?

    #1182950

    ThePurpleOne
    Member

    superme-

    nope i just daven in my heart.. God knows who im talking abt..

    #1182951

    write or wrong
    Participant

    TPO-I appreciate your tefillah, thanks…

    #1182952

    superme
    Member

    That’s true………its better with a name but that’s true thanks

    #1182953

    I really never post, but I want to share something with you, WOW, and everyone. I’ve been reading your saga since you began, and I have been very touched and pained watching you struggle, because I have some idea what you’re going through.

    As last Purim approached, we continued to have serious trouble with one of our sons, had been for many years. At this point, he was not going to yeshiva for months (after many, many attempts) and was really terrorizing the family in a lot of ways. We had tried everything we could think of, to no avail.

    When Purim came, we decided we wanted to tap into the unique power of this special day, so we sponsored some learning on Purim day, and I decided to say the entire sefer Tehillim over Purim. (I knew it would be a challenge, so I started on Taanis Esther.) On Purim afternoon, I was finishing up the sefer in an empty beis medrash, and I became very emotional. When I finished saying the Tehillim, I started asking Hashem, in my own words, to please help our son and our family. I started crying.

    I don’t know what came over me, but I went up to the Aron, and opened it, and leaned in and started begging Hashem to help us. Then I insisted, demanded really, that since only He could help us, that He needed to do something! I have never cried and davened quite like that before, or since. I cried and begged until I was cried out, and I closed the Aron and went to my Purim Seudah.

    I don’t know if this made any difference, but through a series of connections (very Purim story-like), we found an eitzah for him and he is now in a different Yeshiva and has had the longest string of success that he has ever had in his life.

    Our challenge is far from over, but in my mind there is no doubt that Hashem has sent us a miracle. I know anyone still reading this can’t possibly appreciate the neis because I was very brief in explaining the background, but everyone who knows us and the challenges we’ve had knows this was a neis min hashamayim.

    I can’t prove it one way or the other but in my heart I know it connected to the zchus of Purim. We’re sponsoring learning and I’ll be saying the whole sefer Tehillim again this year, that’s for sure.

    We should all be zoche to see nisim.

    #1182954

    N.G
    Member

    I like your name

    #1182955

    write or wrong
    Participant

    First time caller-thank you so much for your inspirational story, and may Hashem continue to send you yeshuas!

    I was told by a friend of mine, and I’ve heard it said in shiurim, that there is tremendous power on the day of Purim. While we are usually pretty busy with sending mishloach manos and the Purim seuda, the truth is, we should be spending a bulk of the day davening. In fact, I was told that beginning Chatzot Lyla Motsei Shabbos, for the next 6 hours, all 7 gates of Shamayim are open, and we should spend that time pouring our hearts out to Hashem.

    I’m so happy that you were able to see success in the merit of all your tefillah. I hope and pray that we will all merit to see nissim and yeshuot this Purim, and that all of our lost children will find their way back to Torah, to mitsvos, and to us….

    #1182956

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    First time caller, thank you for sharing, may you see continued hatzlocha and brocha.

    #1182957

    write or wrong
    Participant

    What a nisayon, to be b’simcha while my son, with his chevra, give us nothing but grief…

    #1182958

    a mamin
    Participant

    wow: I feel your pain…..May this Purim bring you all the miracles you are davening for.!!

    #1182959

    write or wrong
    Participant

    a mamin- Amen! From midnight until about 3am, I begged Hashem to save my son (except for the hour when I fell asleep). I pray that Hashem will bring yeshuas to all of Am Yisrael…we all need them!

    #1182960

    SaysMe
    Member

    first purim since my brother moved himself out… And no he won’t be joining us for the seuda, thanks. Sighhh 🙁

    #1182961

    write or wrong
    Participant

    Well….what can I say? What used to be my favorite holiday ever since we moved to Israel, is now a day for tapered smiles and worry. While my son was making all these plans to go to secular parties and places, I asked him why, when he has clearly rejected a Torah way of life and anything Rabbis say, he was celebrating Purim at all, which is d’Rabanan? Of course he gave the answer, which is the answer to almost any question I ask, “‘Cause I want”. I had to constantly remind myself what I heard from a friend, who told me that no matter what my son does/where he goes on Purim, I WILL be happy, bc it’s a chance to do a mitzvah completely l’shem Shamayim. I’m not acting happy bc I necessarily feel it, but only bc it’s what Hashem wants. So, I did my best, and am now trying to prepare for the weeks he will be home before Pesach…

    #1182963

    superme
    Member

    Whydidnt u call aish hatorah theres one in isreal also

    #1182964

    write or wrong
    Participant

    superme-I don’t see any reason to call Aish, since they don’t do outreach that I know of, and my son wouldn’t accept help from them (or anyone else) even if they did…

    #1182965

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I know a few people who went OTD and most of them seemed to celebrate Purim.

    Dressing up, eating Hamentashem and getting drunk dont seem to be objectionable to them

    #1182966

    EzratHashem
    Member

    WOW: still here and following your posts. Where do you think the “cause I want” comes from? Did that pre-date the approach of giving him everything he desires? If that approach is working well for you then please disregard my comment, but I have to wonder if it is really healthy for him. In any case, Purim and all the chagim and Yom Tov & Shabbosim are challenging. Sometimes it’s helpful when you daven to add all of those suffering with the same situation to your tefillas. I’m guessing there were many homes affected by this on Purim…Also just another reminder to tune in to the other children, Purim was different for them too, probably. Maybe take each one for a private discussion to let them talk about how they are managing the changes–not only does it help them articulate their pain but it shows you are still there as Mom, not completely absorbed by OTD.

    #1182967

    superme
    Member

    Rite or wrong- no aish is for you to call up and ask them advice and ho they recommend

    #1182968

    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, although it is surprising and shocking to us what they choose to participate in and connect to, it is just natural and normal to them. You would be surprised how many OTD non shomer Shabbos still fast on Tisha b’av. “Of course, why did you ask????” To them we are asking foolish questions so WE MuST learn to STOP asking these questions. Just take two deep breaths and hold back. It is better not to ask just watch, listen and learn. Amazing isn’t it that when we think they are so disconnected they are still connected in some ways. They really choose NOT to break all ties. And who are we to question that??? Why call them hypocrites when it was our own hypocritical frum JEWS that shoved them off the derech to begin with? They are kids who are challenged and confused. Lets appreciate that they didn’t completely turn their backs on our Chagim and traditions. Think about it. They could have chosen to just go to a club or party that had nothing to do with the chag! Better that they chooseto connect with other Jews. When they do so there is always a possibility that they will meet the right sheliach. Yes even at a chagigah.

    So go ahead and prepare for Peasach and don’t be afraid to ask him for help. The worst that can happen is he says no. The best is he helps in some way and he feels productive. It sounds from your post that he went back to school.

    #1182969

    superme
    Member

    Write or wrong- no I meant aish hatorah is for you to call and get advice on what to do and who they can recommend fOr help

    Super it’s nice to see you can type actual words when you want to.

    #1182970

    write or wrong
    Participant

    zahavasdad-you are right. I guess the customs of Purim fit right in to their hashkafa!

    EH-He’s always been the kind of kid who only does what he wants. Why do you think we are giving him everything he desires? If you ask him, he’ll tell you that we give him nothing, ’cause that’s how he feels. And the truth is, we are unfortunately, on a very tight budget, but not moreso with him than with our other kids.

    I do daven for all the other kids who are OTD, and their parents. It’s a sad thing, but just off the top of my head, I can name at least 26 kids in our neighborhood, and I’m sure there are many more.. Thanks for reminding me that I have to be a mom to my other children…

    #1182971

    write or wrong
    Participant

    aries2756-I’m not so sure my son celebrated Purim bc he feels connected to yiddishkeit, although he did fast on Taanis Esther. I figured he just wanted to party with the chevra, and here was an ‘acceptable’ way to do it. But you’re right, I probably shouldn’t ask any questions.

    I’m not too optimistic about him helping us get ready for Pesach. If he just doesn’t make my home into a war zone, I’ll be happy. And unfortunately, he did not go back to school. Don’t know why exactly, and I can’t ask too many questions ’cause he doesn’t answer them. The only thing I know is that this time they called him. (Don’t know what they said, but….)

    #1182972

    write or wrong
    Participant

    superme-thanks, but there are other organizations that deal more specifically with this issue. But I’ll just say that NY definitely has the upper hand with professionals experienced in working with kids/parents OTD. So far, the best guidance I’ve had has been from aries2756 (as well as other various posters) and Avi Fishoff. And I know NY has many more who work in this field! Here, it’s much more limited and unfortunately, not as professional (in my opinion).

    #1182973

    superme
    Member

    Oy that’s tuff so just call one of those numbers and see if they can help you and recommend someone

    #1182975

    write or wrong
    Participant

    He’s back to his old shenanigans, staying out all night. I have no faith in the system over here. The kiruv people involved are sleeping! They don’t answer any calls, they just stand idly by while my son falls further. May Hashem help us…

    #1182976

    a mamin
    Participant

    wow: Hashem should please give you the koach to withstand…….. until the light at the end of this long tunnel appears.

    #1182977

    write or wrong
    Participant

    a mamin-amen! I pray that there will be light at the end of this tunnel, and that I will be zoche to see it…

    #1182978

    a mamin
    Participant

    wow: You will, yeshias Hashem keherif ayin!

    #1182979

    smc
    Participant

    Maybe you can try calling or Skype some Kiruv guys from Lakewood.

    #1182980

    mom12
    Participant

    A gitte voch everyone..

    I’ve been following all along. just very busy.

    besides for my older son whos been out of yeshiva, working, and having OTD tendencies, as explained a while back..

    I got me another son who decided to quit yeshiva, he is very young, as well as being busy with all modern gadgets a frum boy or girl should not be busy with.

    Hopefully soon we will have him in a different yeshiva where they will be makarev him.

    I am afraid there is no such yeshiva. either one has the cheishek or he don’t..

    #1182981

    write or wrong
    Participant

    a mamin-thanks for your optimism,I need it.

    Here’s another bit of interesting grief. My other son has been interviewing for yeshivas for next year. He recently interviewed with a group of boys, by a Rav who happened to have taught my other son years ago, before he went OTD (he now knows about it, however). My son came home from the interview quite upset, bc he said the Rav asked everyone a bunch of questions, and asked him only one. I tried to encourage my son by saying, maybe he already knows how smart you are bc of your brother (who really excelled in those years). Unfortunately, the opposite is true. I’m sure it’s bc my son is now OTD, that he rejected my other son. He didn’t even give him a chance….

    #1182982

    write or wrong
    Participant

    mom12-I am really sad to hear about your other son quitting yeshiva, and I hope you can get him into a good place that will be mekarev him, and reach his heart.

    From all the looks we’ve been getting from neighbors, from the really insensitive comments we’ve heard from people lately (friends too, believe it or not!), and from all the stress my other son is going through trying to get accepted into a yeshiva, when no one seems to be giving him a fair chance, I am close to going off the derech myself..

    smc-thanks for your suggestion, but I am really losing hope..

    #1182983

    Welcome to the “frum world” Write Or Wrong

    Where you are guilty by association and having a son who is OTD is seen as something that is contagious.

    It only gets worse from here. Might be time to rethink some things about the lifestyle.

    #1182984

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Welcome to the “frum world” Write Or Wrong

    OH how I hate when people think their daled amos is the frum world ARRRRGG.

    WOW – I totally get your statement and have had those same thoughts in the recent months, but it’s time for you to stop subjecting yourself and family to this community of imaginary frumkeit. This is not how Jews behave and you deserve better. You deserve a community that supports you and your kids and doesn’t forget that there were two luchos. You are a wonderful parent and I wish you would buy the house down the block from us (but I would never encourage a move back to the States). There are places were you can be treated well, be a full fledged chareidi Jew and have good role models for your family living around you. Hugs to you til things improve, I wish I could make all your pain go away, and your son’s as well, but meanwhile just look the other way and remember, anyone who causes you pain is not on any derech that Hashem paved either.

    #1182985

    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, did you call that RAV and ask him what the problem was. If he is NOT going to accept your son then you have nothing to lose anyway. But at least you can ask him point blank what the problem is. Ask him if his shita is to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

    #1182986

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    Dear Write or Wrong,

    I am sorry to hear that your friends and neighbors are giving you looks and are making insensitive comments. I hope you have one or two close friends that are supportive to you, not just the coffee room.

    As far as your second son applying to yeshiva, perhaps it would be best for him to go to a yeshiva that your older son was NOT in, so he could make a fresh start without living in the shadow of his older brother.

    Continue to search for ways to be mechazaik yourself through this difficult tekufah! Be good to yourself. It is normal to go through ups and downs in our spirituality especially during tough times.

    I hope you will share good news with us soon. hang in there!

    #1182987

    smc
    Participant

    write or wrong; Hashem never gives a person a Nisayon if the person can’t pass it, so obviously Hashem knows you can pass this dark alley, and soon, very soon you will see the light at the end!

    #1182988

    smc
    Participant

    Wow: about your second son, maybe he should go to another Yeshiva than what your first son went to, because the Rabeim will probably constantly be looking at your son to see if he does anything wrong, and when he does something wrong (do to the pressure), the punishment will probably be very harsh,(not fitting his actions he did).

    #1182989

    write or wrong
    Participant

    crisisoftheweek-I’m really hoping you’re wrong, and that it will get better rather than worse..

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