Going off the Derech

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  • #1183152

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Actually I do , I some some who were thrown out and I know some Poskeks who poskim to throw them out

    #1183153

    write or wrong
    Participant

    My guess is that if there are Poskim who poskim that way, then they are probably from the old school of thought. I think the majority of Rabbonim today say to mekariv these kids so that they have a chance to return…

    #1183154

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    How old was the child when they were “thrown out?” If a kid is sixteen or seventeen he is basically being tossed out into the streets.

    That’s why I think it would be in the best interests of Write or Wrong and her family AND her son if he goes to school and gets some sort of parnasa under his belt. That way if he is in his twenties and still making your lives miserable he can move out and get his own place. But moving out because he also wants out, not tossing out/thrown out which I think is awful.

    #1183155

    write or wrong
    Participant

    Imaofthree-Although I can certainly understand the emotions behind why a parent might want to throw her child from the house, to actally act upon those emotions seems so horrific to me. And alhough it may be less stressful for the parents not to have a mechalel, chutzpahdik child in the home, unfortunately, I am convinced that it could push the child over the edge, since it is the ultimate rejection. And if we are to equate our feelings toward our parents with our feelings toward Hashem, how could this child ever return to a G-d they perceive to be rejecting? One family that my husband knows, did throw his son out of the house. He ended up finding a few different places to stay, as well as connecting with a few really bad influences, and is now using drugs. I’m sure this is not the intended result the father was hoping for.

    #1183156

    a mamin
    Participant

    I wouldn’t judge anyone in that place. I’m sure I don’t have to tell you Wow how difficult it is for your other children at home. May all the lost souls return to their original creator BEKURIV!

    #1183157

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    The years my kid lived at home were not easy ones. Finally it became obvious to us that it just was not working out anymore because everyone was unhappy so we helped our child get his own place to live (of his choosing). I cried my eyes out when he moved out, it was a very hard thing for me but we had no choice. I think it was the right decision. But that did not happen when my kid was your son’s age, too young in my opinion. We can’t worry about other parents who throw out their kids, we have to take care of our own in the best way we know how. and I agree we certainly cannot judge.

    Hopefully you won’t have to make this choice, Write or Wrong, but I cannot stress enough how important it is for your son to have some sort of schooling/ parnosah so he can support himself.

    #1183158

    write or wrong
    Participant

    a mamin-Amen!

    Imaofthree-I can only imagine the anguish you must have felt when your son moved out. But at least you helped him to secure an apartment, which is quite different from throwing a child out of the house. Yet, I would never judge any parent, this is an awful nisayon.

    I agree that my son needs to work towards some profession. He is in school now, and I hope he will stay. He is showing some signs of ambition, but still too soon to tell…

    #1183159

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    It was awful but my child was not happy at home and wanted to move out. And was old enough to live independently, drive a car, etc. It was something that everyone in the family needed and was in agreement on. I knew that this had to be, but I still cried my eyes out.

    That is great that your son is showing signs of ambition! Encourage and praise him in this direction. excellent.

    #1183160

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    IMaof3

    Do you mind me asking how much contact you have with your son

    I know some that have cut off completely their OTD children and others that have kept minimal contact or treated them like second class citizens

    #1183161

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    My door is always open and just like I would not cut off my leg or arm I cannot cut off my child.

    I have never met a parent who completely cut off their OTD child. but I suppose they are out there. 🙁

    Do you have a child who is OTD, zahavasdad?

    #1183162

    write or wrong
    Participant

    Imaofthree-I love your analogy, “just like I would not cut off my leg or arm I cannot cut off my child.”

    Our hearts think alike..

    #1183163

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    No

    But I have friends who are.

    I did not cut them off when they went off

    #1183164

    write or wrong
    Participant

    Spent the past 2 days trying to find a way to forgive myself for not picking up on the signs that my son was being terribly victimized in school by other kids. They broke him emotionally, as he tried so hard to fit in. He opened up to us this Shabbos, but basically feels that there is no hope for him. He sees himself as a freak, with no self esteem, not fitting in anywhere. I begged him to come to counseling, but he says he’s completely closed, and no one can reach him. Does anyone know of a good therapist for my child in Israel? I can’t find anyone with this type of expertise, who answers my calls, and who’d be willing to come to him? Is there no hope for my son, chas v’shalom?????

    #1183165

    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW please read the book Choice Theory by Dr. William Glasser, it might help you. Also the Language of Choice by the same author. It might help you communicate with your son with positive affirmations, teaching how he as choices about the way he feels, thinks, and acts. He can take control over his thoughts, emotions and actions if he chooses. He just has to be shown the way.

    #1183166

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Write or wrong, of course there’s hope. His opening up to you is a good sign.

    Keep on davening.

    #1183167

    write or wrong
    Participant

    aries2756-thanks for the book recommendation, but I feel that there’s no time for me to read books. He needs help now!

    DaasYochid-My husband agrees with you. But I’m afraid it’s his last cry for help. I am reaching out everywhere in order to help him. Most people want to help me cope with the situation, but I will be fine if I know he is getting the help he needs…..

    #1183168

    hudi
    Participant

    This is a good sign. It seems he has reached rock bottom and has no choice but to turn to you and your husband. Hopefully Hashem will follow. Give him a big hug and cry with him. This is not your fault. Even if you did recognize the signs, he would possibly have rejected your attempts to reach him. He had to reach the bottom before he allowed himself to come to you. Hatzlacha raba and I hope you find the proper shaliach. We are all thinking of you.

    #1183169

    Tirza
    Member

    Write or Wrong:

    There is an organization called M.A.S.K.(Mothers Aligned Saving Kids)International that helps families with exactly this problem. They have been helping OTD kids for many years. They are based in New York but they try to help worldwide. Perhaps they can refer you to someone in Israel who can help.

    we do not allow contact info

    #1183170

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    I am sorry that your son was a victim of bullying. Why won’t you ask your pediatrician for a recommendation of a good therapist? Hopefully your son will agree to go but you can’t force him, he has to be ready. Good luck!

    #1183171

    write or wrong
    Participant

    hudi/Imaofthree-I hope you are right, that it is a good sign. Maybe we found someone who can help, me and my husband are meeting next week.

    #1183172

    interjection
    Participant

    Call retorno. He’s not a candidate for rehab but at least they can give you direction

    #1183173

    speak to rabbi wallerstein. Great guy. Totally saved my life.

    #1183174

    BenParnes
    Participant

    1. “Ignore the noise”. Your child is starting to open up. You be quite and let him talk and talk and talk! (and you need to listen listen listen!!! no judging or comments. Just genuine interest and validation.

    2. He needs to feel you really understand him. Loving him is not enough.

    #1183175

    write or wrong
    Participant

    Tirza/interjection/iluvbeingjewish/BenParnes-thanks for all the suggestions.

    #1183176

    a mamin
    Participant

    Wow: I have you in mind….. praying for that little opening…

    #1183177

    write or wrong
    Participant

    a mamin-thanks…we need it.

    #1183178

    write or wrong
    Participant

    So, should I tell you that we had another disappointment in getting my other son into a yeshiva? He has been studying with a Rav for months, and went on another interview recently. The Rosh Yeshiva asked him his name and about his siblings, where they learn etc. When he heard the name of the school where my older son learns, he asked my son, “Is he OTD?”, to which my innocent naive son replied, “Yes”.

    Needless to say, he was rejected. I just wanted to cry for my son. We drove so far to get there, he knew the chomer, was all dressed up in his Shabbos suit, cute as can be, and was hoping to get accepted to this yeshiva. Do you think he was given a fair chance? Why would the RY even ask that question, is it relevant to what this son’s potential is? You can be sure that next time, we will tell him to LIE….

    #1183179

    interjection
    Participant

    you should watch the video i told you watch. the link is toward the beginning of the last page. it should hopefully be comforting.

    #1183180

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    Can the Rov that he was studying with call up the Rabbi who did the interview and vouch for your son? How about your son’s Rebbes?

    #1183181

    write or wrong
    Participant

    interjection-I watched the video clip you posted. The problem is that the Rosh Yeshiva didn’t see it………..

    Imaofthree-My son’s Rebbe from school recommended my son to this yeshiva, but he didn’t know about my ‘other’ son. Anyway the RY told him my son didn’t know the chomer…..

    My husband could call the other Rav who studies with my son, but we’re so sensitive now to our kids getting a bad feeling from their Rebbes, that he doesn’t want to force anyone to take my son if he doesn’t want them.

    #1183182

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    Listen write or wrong, I live here in america so I don’t exactly know how it works in Eretz Yisroel but I do know that it is hard for everyone to get all their kids into school and you must be aggressive about it, just like the other parents are for their children. It is very competitive to get into yeshivos and hopefully another school will accept him with no problem but sometimes you have to be your child’s advocate to get him accepted. As they say, the squeaky wheel gets greased first!

    #1183183

    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, maybe the more appropriate way of answering that question is “my brother is in a lot of pain, thank you for asking about him, we are all very concerned for him, he is really suffering. He is going through a tremendous nisayon and we are lucky that he made a connection with Rabbi ….. we truly hope that he will be able to help him and he will be the right sheliach for him. It hurts so much to see your own sibling have a yeridah and know that there is nothing you can do but daven and learn for him and his refuah, we are all doing the best we can”

    By answering in this fashion, one takes the bull by the horns and shows that they are NOT ashamed of their sibling, and they are NOT at risk of following him down that path therefor there is no risk in taking the child into the yeshiva.

    #1183184

    You are not going to be able to get him into a “top tier” place with the baggage of an OTD sibiling. If you lie to the hanhala about the OTD sibling then once they find out and find out they will, your son will be summarily dismissed and then considered even more unworth of addmission anywhere worthwhile.

    None of you are looking at the big picture which is that the huge problem in chinuch is that every place only wants “perfect” families and children. All this system of exclusion is doing is creating more OTD children and more dysfunction.

    The good news is that the OTD kids might get a decent education now and make something of themselves now that they are rid of a broken education system.

    #1183185

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    Crisis of the week: It is not good news that the OTD kids are getting a decent education now that they are off the derech and out of yeshiva.

    Because later on they get married to goyim. Not good news. 🙁

    #1183186

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There is nothing wrong with being educated and it irks me to no end to see the poor quality of education in he Charedi schools.

    Unfortunatly in the Charedi world alot of bullying goes on to each other (The Schools are used as the bait) and people fall into line even when they disagree

    #1183187

    sw33t
    Member

    Crisis of the week: It is not good news that the OTD kids are getting a decent education now that they are off the derech and out of yeshiva.

    Because later on they get married to goyim. Not good news. 🙁

    I dont understand this at all. And I do not see the connection.

    It used to be that many OTD kids became drug addicts, unable to hold jobs, and generally unproductive members of societies. Now they can get educated, get a job and live a good productive life- but not religious. Not trivializing observance, but do you really think that’s a worse outcome??

    #1183188

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    Some of the OTD kids do become addicted to drugs and are unproductive and some (like my child) graduate college, never do drugs, and hold down jobs.

    #1183189

    There is very little perspective when kids go OTD, no matter what happens after the child leaves, it is viewed by the parents as failure on their end. As illustrated below and a hat tip to The Wandering Jew

    Chani Goldstein: age 19, kicked out of her Yeshiva High School for smoking, and ended up doing drugs. She has no real place to live, has no prospects or job skills. She does not keep Kosher or Shabbos.

    Rivki Schwartz: age 26, defied her parents who wanted to send her to seminary, managed to get a full scholarship to college, then went to law school while working part-time as a paralegal. She just passed the bar and has a job offer at a prestigious law firm. She does not keep Kosher or Shabbos.

    Both shake their heads sadly.

    #1183190

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    And the worst part of Crisis vignette is the person who ate treif is considered worse than the Yente who told Lashon Haroh

    #1183191

    write or wrong
    Participant

    Imaofthree-It’s hard over here too, and you are right about the squeaky wheel. But I don’t exactly know what we are going to do right now.

    Crisisoftheweek-how can you be so sure the hanhala will find out?

    aries2756-there is no way that my son would be able to say something like that. It’s just too much info for him to remember, and he’d never do it. But I get your point, so perhaps he could say an abridged version. We’ll see. I’m not so sure that lying wouldn’t be easier.

    #1183192

    pou_bear
    Member

    sw33t – is this a joke? once a kid is off the derech would you not prefer that they are successful people as opposed to miserable,suffering addicts?

    I guess some self hating religious people would rather see someone whos off the derech suffering then being successful. ( and I am not referring to you sw33t)

    #1183193

    sw33t
    Member

    Yes, I know. But all yenta-ing aside. Realistically, since your child will be OTD either way, wouldn’t you rather they become educated and productive??

    Imaofthree-are you unhappy that your child got an education? Because that is how you made it seem in the earlier post.

    #1183194

    @Writeorwrong

    They will find out one of a few different ways but these two are the most likely.

    A: Your son gets accepted, opens up to his Rebbe about problems at home, the Rebbe fearing for the neshamos of the other talmidim brings this issue to the attention of the hanhala at once, because clearly this boy is influenced by his older sibling and is a ticking time bomb.

    B: Someone from your neighboorhood runs into someone who has a child in said Yeshiva and then through the usual frum lashon harah l’toeles grapevine, word gets out and pretty soon not only painted with the stigma of an otd sibling, he is now a “liar” too.

    Mi K’amcha Yisroel.

    #1183195

    write or wrong
    Participant

    crisisoftheweek-it’s funny, but from your post, it sounds like you are a bit jaded against the Haredim. Yet you have the same judgemental attitude that this RY had. What makes you think that my son would complain about ‘problems’ at home? And do you think my son is a ticking time bomb, or are you only pointing fingers?

    If I thought you or anyone else would use my experience as an opportunity to look down upon the Haredim, I would stop posting. As much as I am pained about my son not having been given a fair chance, I do not condemn the entire Haredi population. Nobody’s perfect, not in the Haredi world and not in the secular world. I only talk about these things here, so that perhaps, the ‘right’ people will read them. Then, maybe we can begin to make the corrections that need to be made, and prevent more yiddishe neshamos from going OTD…

    #1183196

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    Write or Wrong, unfortunately it is very competitive to get children into yeshivos these days. Do NOT take it personally. Don’t let it get to you. Yes, it’s awful but it’s not only you, it’s all of us. Moshiach has to come we need it so badly. In the mean time, I wish you hatzlocha. You are going through rough times.

    #1183197

    I’m not jaded, I’m a realist. As you said it yourself that the RY thought the same way I did.

    I dont think that your son would complain about his home life, but if he happens to mention it, then it’s out there and the information will spread. He is not a “ticking time bomb” but that is the perception the yeshivos have. They think it’s only a matter of time before he is influenced to follow in the ways of his brother.

    Hate to be the bearer of bad news but any “A” list institution thinks this way and while you are not trying to “paint everyone with the same brush” these institutions all operate out of the same playbook and they will do whatever they can to keep out anyone with “problems” they dont care to solve/be associated with.

    So you can post here all you want and hope that someone reads this and it affects some positive change, but we havent seen change like that yet..it’s just getting more and more exclusive.

    #1183198

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    WOW

    The problem is the Charedi world does not take critism, They assume all critism is an attack on their lifestyle.

    Its true some crisim is an attack , but not all of it.

    Its important to listen to at least some of the critism and realize its not all an attack and there is real chizuk to be had

    #1183199

    aries2756
    Participant

    WOW, don’t sell your son short. He learns and memorizes a lot more than that in yeshiva, and it is the absolute truth. So whether he says all of that or an abridged version of that, answering in such a manner is always better than lying. Never teach a child to lie it will come back to slap you in the face. Teaching him “how” to respond to such a question in a truthful manner, shows that the family is dealing with the situation and it is NOT effecting them in a bad way. That shows strength and emunah in the mishpacha.

    #1183200

    write or wrong
    Participant

    Imaofthree-I know it’s all of us, and it must be a sign that Mashiach is very close. I do try not to take it personally, but somehow, I can’t seem to find any other way to take it. But I’m working on it. Thanks for your support…and hatzlacha to you too!

    crisisoftheweek-Maybe you are being a realist, but when you say, “Mi k’amcha Yisrael”, people like this RY don’t even come to mind. I can think only of those who are getting it right, and there are MANY. (And they are not only Haredim). I’ll just give you a tiny example. When I first moved to Israel, I was at the supermarket one day, when some obviously secular Israeli woman walked in. In my mind, I always believed that either you are observant or non-observant. So seeing this woman dressed severely inappropriately, I already formed an opinion about her (that she has no connection to religion). So when she kissed the mezzuzah as she walked into the store, I was shocked. That’s when I said, “Mi k’amcha Yisrael”. Even the rechok are karov in some way, and have the potential to come closer to Hashem.

    I just heard something that connects to what you said, “it’s just getting more and more exclusive”. As we get closer and closer to Mashiach, Hashem is making His selection (perhaps symbolically similar to the Yeshivos making their selection). He is squeezing us with nisayonos, so that the truly faithful who hold on, will earn and deserve their rightful reward. And those of us with weak or empty emunah will let go, chas v’Shalom. Yes, things are becoming more and more exclusive……

    aries2756-point taken.

    #1183201

    I was being sarcastic about saying Mi K’amcha Yisroel. Due to the fact that learning and living Torarh is supposed to lead to behavioral refinement and sensitivity to your fellow man. Instead these “Torah institutions” choose to close ranks and keep out anyone and everyone with a tiny black mark on their record.

    Kids will pick up on the fact that this system is a joke. I would not be suprised if your son follows in his brothers footsteps but maybe instead of just hanging out with other “undesireables” he will take his talents elsewhere and thrive in a less “exclusive” enviroment.

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