Going off the Derech

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  • #1183202
    write or wrong
    Participant

    crisisoftheweek-I know you were being sarcastic, obviously it was not meant as a compliment.

    I really hope you are wrong about my son following in his brother’s footsteps. Truthfully, all my kids see how much my son is suffering, and it’s not too appealing….

    #1183203
    Ariellah
    Participant

    What’s ur son up to now? is he becoming more frumer? Are your other kids getting influenced by him? I wish you much hatzlacha with helping him become more frumer and going back on the derech!!

    #1183205
    write or wrong
    Participant

    Ariellah-My focus is not on making him frummer right now. But I am hoping one day, b’ezrat Hashem, he’ll come back to the derech…

    #1183208
    a mamin
    Participant

    wow: You mentioned last week that you were hoping to meet with someone this week, who might be able to help. Any progress?

    #1183209
    write or wrong
    Participant

    a mamin-Too soon to know. They made some suggestions but it will all depend upon my son, what he’ll agree to do. But it was good for my husband, and it gave us some direction. Thanks for asking..

    #1183210

    this chat must have the most posts… write or wrong i didnt read all 39 pages but does this topic still apply?

    #1183211
    write or wrong
    Participant

    need seminary help-unfortunately, yes.

    #1183212

    i wish you all the best.

    #1183213
    a mamin
    Participant

    Wow: I am sure you are heading in the right direction…. With Hashems help, its coming close…

    #1183214
    write or wrong
    Participant

    need seminary help/a mamin- we are starting to see some shlichim in the picture, as the Hand of Hashem tries to guide my son to a healthier place. I pray my son chooses well.

    I hope we are heading in the right direction…at least we seem to be moving..

    #1183215

    as i said, all the best. remember hashem is with you always. you are NEVER alone.

    #1183216
    a mamin
    Participant

    Wow: how is it going, haven’t heard from you in a while?

    #1183217
    write or wrong
    Participant

    a mamin-not much to report. Things do ‘feel’ a little better, although nothing major has changed. I do think the people we met with can have a positive impact, it all depends on how well they follow up with my son. My husband and have taken a back seat, bc we’ve learned that anything that comes from us will be rejected by my son. So we keep davening, and hoping for the best..

    Thanks for asking. How’s by you?

    #1183218
    a mamin
    Participant

    I have you constantly in mind… We all have nisyonos, somehow yours has touched me to the inner core.

    #1183219
    write or wrong
    Participant

    a mamin-thanks for your nice words..

    #1183220
    Shraga18
    Participant

    crisisoftheweek,

    ” I would not be suprised if your son follows in his brothers footsteps “

    Really great way to encourage and give chizuk to a woman going through gehennom. Absolutely disgusting. Can you and ZD please take your Chareidi bashing to a different thread?

    #1183221
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Some people need to realize the difference between constructive critism and bashing.

    Not all critism is bashing and everyone can take some Chizuk even Charedim.

    This thread unfortunatly exposes flaws in the Charedi society and WOW is a victim of it.

    Teens are rebellious. Its just part of growing up. It really isnt the end of the world . How to deal with such teens.

    You have a sibling who is “OTD” and a yeshiva rejects him soley because he has an OTD Sibling. Please tell me where that is acceptable. There is a well known Gadol who had a sister who was a communist and when he about to enter the Yeshiva Gadola his sister did everything she could to discourage him from going and go to a university . And you know what the Yeshiva took him anyway and he became the Gadol HaDor.

    Perhaps if the Charedi world would accept some critism (You can usually tell the difference between hateful talk and constructive critism and even hateful talk may have valid critism in it)

    #1183222

    @Shraga18

    Just because I pointed out a likely possibility does not make me a charedi basher. You can disagree with me, and point out where you think I’ve gone wrong. But resorting to ad homeinum attacks does nothing for your side of the argument.

    Her children are witnessing the ugly truth about yiddishkeit and how it deals with independant thinkers and their siblings. Some will double down and feel that much more of a commitment to their relationship with Hashem. And others will see it for what it is and make their life choices accordingly.

    #1183223
    Imma613
    Participant

    COTW first of all you are not posting with sensitivity towards WOW by pointing out. “likely possibilities” like that. It would be far more helpful to offer chizuk or advice within the framework of where WOW lives and the realities she lives with.

    Secondly, I must take issue with what you wrote about the alleged ” ugly truth about Yiddishkeit” I am sorry that the representatives of Yiddishkeit who you have met and suffered because of have hurt you. I must clarify to you, however, that you have chosen to tar all of Yiddishkeit with the same bush based on your experiences. Wouldn’t I be considered racist and small minded if I decided that all people of a certain race were thugs because I got mugged by a group of youths from a particular race? I would be cheating myself of interacting with many wonderful people based upon negative experience with a small subsection of that group.

    Before you disparage all of yiddishkeit, meet others who are more accepting of you and certainly don’t add to WOW’s pain. If you were hurt, you know how it feels. Was the best support you received really in the form of bashing those that hurt you?

    #1183224
    write or wrong
    Participant

    crisis of the week- You made at least two errors in judgement:

    ” I would not be suprised if your son follows in his brothers footsteps “. My OTD son went through various circumstances that led to his break with yiddishkeit, to the extent that if even one of those experiences hadn’t occured, he might not have gone OTD. My other son didn’t have any of those experiences, and in fact, had a healthier and more positive experience. Yet you equate the two by saying if A=B, then C=B. There is no logic to your mathematics.

    “Her children are witnessing the ugly truth about yiddishkeit and how it deals with independent thinkers and their siblings”. The rejections by the yeshivas do not reveal the ‘ugliness of yiddishkeit’ bc there is no ugliness in yiddishkeit. (Don’t make the same incorrect assumption that OTD kids make!) There are only PEOPLE who err, and PEOPLE who get it right. What my kids see is the reality that NO ONE is perfect, not in the secular world and not in the religious world. And if some religious people are getting it wrong, we can only imagine what’s going on in the secular world. My husband has given every RY who said ‘no’,kaf zchus. On the contrary! My kids are getting to see yiddishkeit at its best via their father!! When a yeshiva says no, it’s “gam zeh l’tova”, and “Hakol ihiyeh b’seder”. And not every yeshiva has said no. The yeshivas that say no bc of an OTD sibling in my opinion, are not acting like Torah-true institutions at the core, but are more like ‘businesses’ being run under the guise of Torah.

    zahvasdad-when you say, “This thread unfortunatly exposes flaws in the Charedi society”, what you really mean is that not all the Charedim are acting like they should, right? Why is that a ‘societal’ problem and not an individual one? The Charedim, unfortuately, are not together as a unit, so why are you judging them as such? When you do this, you make it sound like there’s this global problem, a kind of spiritual virus that has invaded the Charedi world, which is not true! We have wonderful friends. We know wonderful people, and the shiurim I go to are packed with women who think like me. I don’t see flaws in the Charedi society. I see that there are some people (everywhere!) who are misguided, and I would hate to think that this thread is causing you or others to think that the ‘Charedi world’ has a problem, chas v’Shalom. I am merely exposing my painful story, but it is certainly not the norm…

    #1183225

    imma and WOW – thanks for taking the words right out of my mouth. Well said!

    #1183226
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    WOW

    I know from charedi family members they really do think like the R’Y who says to keep out families with OTD members. Its not an aberattion and they do think OTD kids should be kicked out. They were talking about it during Pesach.

    The problem is not Yiddishkeite, Its FRUMKEITE . In the goyish world people try to out do the jones in cars, houses etc. In the Charedi world people are trying to out-frum the Goldsteins by Proving they are MORE FRUM than everyone and they dont care what damage it causes. People are not willing to stand up and say enough. They are not willing to say that yeshivas have the community hostage and when one speaks out they should be shunned from the community.

    Look at Ramat Besi Shemesh. It was wrong what happend, but why did nobody speak out. That is a flaw.

    Look at the Yeshiva system in Israel now. Do you think EVERY Charedi belives in lifetime Kollel . Of course not some I am sure belive in work and would love to work (and I bet some would even like to join the army) but nobody is sticking up..

    I know plenty of Charedim. Much of my family is Charedi and I like them.

    Speaking up against the misguided people will do alot to end your frustration and I am sure many others as well

    #1183227

    write or wrong-

    That was amazing. If more people had that approach, they’d be far happier.

    #1183228
    a mamin
    Participant

    Imma 613: +1

    #1183229
    write or wrong
    Participant

    zahavasdad-Then perhaps you know many misguided people. When you say the Charedim are trying to ‘out-frum the Goldstein’s’, you are making accusatory generalizations and applying them to the Charedi world at large. Because in my small microcosm of a world, nobody is trying to out-do anyone. Everyone is truly yiras Shamayim, with middos tovos, people of chesed. Perhaps, each of us judges Klal Yisrael based on what we have…

    And you are wrong about Bet Shemesh!! Who said that nobody spoke out about it, the media? And you’re already pointing fingers and exposing the “flaw” in the Charedi world without knowing the emes. Shame on you!

    Unfortunately, in perhaps an unconscious way, you too are being pulled into the mire with others who would like nothing more than to make the Charedim look bad. I will never believe it. I’m not saying that there aren’t RYs who won’t accept kids with OTD siblings. I am saying that they are not a true reflection of yiddishkeit, and certainly don’t represent the Klal…or me.

    #1183230
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I wish you could take a step back and not be so defensive and realize you did nothing wrong.

    Sometimes it does pay to look at things from the outside and realize what is going it. People in the chraredi world are mostly good (There are bad apples in every group).

    Please seperate YIDDISHKITE from FRUMKITE and you will see what I am talking about. (They are NOT the same)

    #1183231
    write or wrong
    Participant

    Zahavasdad-explain the difference?

    #1183232
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Yiddishkite says all jewish newshamas are precious and must be educated in yehsiva

    Frumkeite – I dont want MY kid in a yeshiva with THAT kid because his parents have internet and I dont want MY kid infected with such shtus

    #1183233
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I just wanted to add it would be much better if change came from within Charedi society. It seems that any critism is seen as being anti-Charedi instead of perhaps being constructive.

    It is a shame people think any critism is a black mark on Charedi society.I do not think any less of charedim because there are R’Y who might be great talmid Chacham, are not really able to be teachers.

    This thread has being going on for a year and it seems from an outsider that things did get somewhat worse over the year (Sometimes on a daily basis its harder to see change) . It would benefit charedi society much better if you would expose the flaws in the system so that others do not go through what you went through and try to make things better.

    It would be much better for Charedi Society and yourself if people like yourself would gather together and try to make things better. It might hurt at first, Sort of like Chemo therapy which hurts at first but in the end you will get better

    #1183234

    Yiddishkite says all jewish newshamas are precious and must be educated in yehsiva

    Frumkeite – I dont want MY kid in a yeshiva with THAT kid because his parents have internet and I dont want MY kid infected with such shtus

    What you’ve just described is a dilemma which every mossad has – how ti balance the needs of all Jewish children.

    Of course, it would be wonderful if all children would be accepted to whichever school they wanted, and nobody would ever be negatively influenced by others. But that’s not what happens.

    You may feel that exclusivity is callous to those neshomos who need to find another school, but you’re ignoring the fact that accepting certain kids might be callous to other neshamos.

    Do RY and menahalim make mistakes, or even err because of bias? Of course. But that not “frumkeit”, that’s “humankeit”.

    #1183235
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    All neshams are important

    What has happend is many are willing to throw some under the bus and unfortuantly this thread is about such people.

    Because spaces are scarce, everyone wants the best and the rest get left behind

    #1183236

    Because spaces are scarce, everyone wants the best and the rest get left behind

    Are you suggesting that, with spaces scarce, they should accept the “worst”, and leave the “best” behind?

    #1183237
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I am saying a system that is willing to cast off “excess” is flawed

    If Space is scarce, make more space. There seems to be plenty of money for many other things that we can debate if its a chumra or halacha,

    We are talking about future generations here. Whats more important. Debating about what kind of Haircut a Yeshiva Bocher should have or just plain chinuch

    #1183238

    If Space is scarce, make more space.

    You’re the one who asserted that there isn’t enough space, so go ahead and open another yeshivah if you wish.

    You said this thread exposes flaws in the Charedi “system”. Do you think there’s a “system” which is more successful? Do MO or DL not also have chinuch challenges?

    #1183239
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The MO community issue is the tuition is too high and people are taking their kids out of the schools because they cant afford it

    I cant speak about Dati Leumi because I am not familiar with the issues, but I assume Tuition isnt an issue.

    But ask any Gadol if a Yeshiva should not take someone because the parents arent as “frum” as you are

    #1183240

    But ask any Gadol if a Yeshiva should not take someone because the parents arent as “frum” as you are

    I suppose nobody would answer “yes” to such a vaguely worded question. Ask a more specific question, and you might get a different answer.

    I’ve heard this issue about MO schools, and if true, it’s horrible. Inability to pay rarely results in non acceptance or expulsion in Chareidi schools. But what I really meant was to ask if those educated in MO or DL schools are more likely to stay frum (although that’s hardly the only marker for successful chinuch).

    #1183241
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Many MO schools take Kids who are not Frum in the hopes of Making them frum . Some of them never become frum and some do become frum.

    Charedi schools rarely take such kids so its not really fair to compare the 2 since the MO schools are taking a risk the charedi schools are not.

    You arent going to make a non-frum kid unless you at least give it an effort

    #1183243
    write or wrong
    Participant

    DaasYochid-why is the only choice, for yeshivas to take the ‘best’ and leave the ‘worst’ behind? When I went to college, even though a certain average grade was needed to get into a good school, I seem to remember that the college was obligated NOT to discriminate, and there were leniencies made for certain groups of people who would otherwise, never have a chance to get into the school. This policy was across the board for every type of university, even the best ones. Once the students were in, it was up to them to keep up with the chomer…and most of them did.

    We can’t learn from this???

    #1183244

    Write or wrong, when I refer to “best” and “worst”, I am referring to behavior, not academics. My concern is that the “better” kids not be negatively by the others. (I am not referring to your situation at all, this was a tangent).

    I’m not sure why you think affirmative action is applicable to yeshivos, though. The assumption made by those who support affirmative action is, i believe, that certain ethnic groups were discriminated against, and a quota would give them a fair chance. In other words, they really could be on a par academically. I don’t think that’s the kind of discrimination we’re talking about.

    A case could be made fore academic based segregation (not exclusion) as well, though. A classroom normally functions better when there’s not as much disparity. If the focus is on the stronger students, the weaker ones will be left out. If the focus is on the weaker students, the stronger ones will be under-stimulated. Teaching to both levels simultaneously is a feat which most educators are not capable of.

    The question becomes (usually in what we call mesivta in the U.S.) whether to have different tracks in the same yeshiva, or more yeshivos. Some feel that it makes sense to have more yeshivos, without “tracking”, so that the weaker students don’t get labelled B students, which almost dooms them to academic failure. This effect is felt much stronger in schools with parallel classes on different levels; much less so between different yeshivos.

    #1183245
    write or wrong
    Participant

    DaasYochid-but the yeshivas do discriminate, not only on behavior (which is probably the most understandable), but more specifically on academics. Not to mention, on lineage, ‘connections’ and probably a dozen other things that have nothing to do with the child’s potential to succeed.

    I’m not sure there is a big difference between having different academic levels within the same yeshiva, or different level yeshivas?

    #1183246
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    When I read here about the debates in Israel , Those who are for the draft claim What if a guy is not a great learner and is “Goofing around” or not up to the task

    And the response has been EVERYONES Torah is equal before hashem.

    So even those who are less learners should not be drafted.

    Now when I bring up that Yeshivas are already throwing out the weaker students and many Behavior issues are related because not everyone can sit 12-14 hours a day (especially a Teen) and learn. They then become frustrated and act out and some of the acting maybe just be boredom. But because they are punished because they cant 12-14 hours (If the “Gadol A” learned 14 hours a day so can you) otherwise you are an “At-Risk Teen”

    #1183247
    interjection
    Participant

    zd +1

    #1183248

    Those who are for the draft claim What if a guy is not a great learner and is “Goofing around” or not up to the task

    And the response has been EVERYONES Torah is equal before hashem.

    I think you made that up. The arguments have been, for the most part, against drafting those who are learning, no matter their LEVEL, not no matter their hasmada, and against a treife army which is no place for a nice Jewish boy to be.

    #1183249

    I’m not sure there is a big difference between having different academic levels within the same yeshiva, or different level yeshivas?

    This is not just my own observation, it is becoming standard practice for mesivta high schools to stay small (not so chadarim) for this reason. I’ve spoken to serious mechanchim about this.

    #1183250
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    DY : Just semantics

    I think you missed the point however. When the government wants to take the lesser learners and help them in some way (We can debate what way is best) the charedi world gets all up in arms

    However when there are lesser learners not under pressue for outside forces to do something else, Instead of trying to find them a place in the world the charedi world throws them under the bus

    #1183251
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Ultimately you are only as strong as your weakest link.

    WOW’s post isnt the first one on this topic. Its only the longest one because it has become theraputic for her.

    Why is the root causes being ignored. Someone doesnt go OTD overnight. It takes time for it to occur and many times (if not most) the damage is permanent. I dont know if WOW’s son is coming back or not. Nobody does. He obviously associates Yiddishkite with negative things, Why would he want to be religous. Why would he want to learn if he associates abuse with Torah. Who wants to get slapped by the Rebbe because one day he was daydreaming

    #1183252

    Just semantics

    You framed the argument in a distorted way, using “just semantics”, to make the anti-draft position look silly.

    When the government wants to take the lesser learners and help them in some way

    They have no interest in helping anybody. If they want to help, let them work on the books. If you think Yair Lapid is trying to help chareidim, I’ve got several bridges and tunnels to show you at bargain prices.

    Why is the root causes being ignored.

    There us no single root cause. Each case is different. Trying to blame it on a system is a convenient way of getting out of the hard work of being mechanech individual children.

    #1183253
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The is a root cause and the root cause is someone is unhappy, miserable and bitter.

    If someone loves the Yeshiva , Loves doing all the Mitzvoth, Loves the Taasehs AND the Lo Taases they are not leaving.

    If you love learning Gemorah, why would you ever stop doing it, but if you cant stand it , are bored with it and remember the Rebbe punishing you because you didnt do something with it, You are going to dislike it

    What causes the hate, that is on an individual base.

    #1183254
    aries2756
    Participant

    We have moved off the original topic and gone the regular root. But I will offer my opinion here anyway.

    On the topic of the Israel draft…if you choose to live in Israel and know and understand that the citizens of Israel must protect themselves from their own neighbors and therefore every child that turns eighteen must enter the army and be trained to do so, then you must be prepared as all other citizens to do because you are protecting your own! And you are expecting your brothers whether they are chareidim or not to protect you! It is not like in America where kids were drafted to fight wars for other countries and nationalities. Each and every citizen of the Land of Israel shares the same risk and therefore must share the same training and service. A special leniency has been afforded to religious girls which I truly appreciate and admire; and for many years to religious yeshiva students. This has been a huge area of contention.

    Yes learning Torah is also a measure of protecting Eretz Yisroel but there is no Age limit or constraints on learning. So while the Yeshiva boys who are serving their country during the few years that they are required to do so, other men outside that age barrier can and should be learning in their stead. In this way there are always trained chareidim in the midst of the community ready and prepared to keep there own communities safe! Once a soldier always a soldier. Armed, ready and prepared. With a sense of discipline, purpose and respect in all areas of their lives.

    If you do not accept that responsibility as a citizen of the country you should move out and allow others who do to settle the land.

    As far as the Yeshiva system is concerned….it needs to be completely overhauled. Kids are NOT being taught the basic Torah values which should be the foundation of their lives and their Torah learning. That should come first before all else. That is the A, B, C’s of Yiddishkeit and without it their learning is pointless. With it their learning is like Angel’s singing! Yes there should be parallel classes and strong students should be encouraged to help the weaker students. Weaker students who wish to achieve their potential will be able to work to move up into the other track. When you have separate schools you are stuck and labeled for life!

    Hashem gives each of us different skills and talents. One kid might be an ilui in Gemarah while another shines in Mishnayos, Chumash or Nach. That means that the possibilities are here. A kid might not chap the Gemarah but he could be a Math savant. Why does he belong in a different school? He just needs the encouragement to train his brain to tune in to this other exciting and intricate concept. He needs to be motivated differently. Sometimes it is the lack of motivation and encouragement from the yeshivas themselves that turn off the kids and not the abilities of the kids at all!

    Children need positive energy to meet their goals and to push themselves past the stop signs. If a child needs a pat on the head I don’t want to hear that the yeshiva doesn’t have the time to supply it. For the tens of thousands of dollars parents spend on a child’s tuition make the time to give he kids what they need and don’t put them on the bottom of the totem pole. Schools are supposed to be designed to help kids meet their individual potentials. Schools are supposed to be designed to help kids succeed. Schools are supposed to be about the kids! Our yeshiva system is NOT about the kids at all. It is a place for the Rosh Yeshiva and the Rabbanim to make a living. And please notice that I use the word make and not earn. It is about what the administration needs, what the staff needs, what the school needs, what the wealthy parents want, what the donors want, how to outdo and out frum the other yeshivas. How can WE stand out and be more exclusive? It has nothing to do with the kids and heir welfare. Any regular normal parent with a regular normal kid who has a problem or issue will be shown the door and told to look elsewhere. They don’t care if they lose normal students. They are all just looking for wealth and Yichus. Is this what Yiddishkeit is about? This is what our yeshivas are teaching our children Yiddishkeit is about. This is the hypocrisy our children see. They do nothing to make their students safe, happy or successful.

    I have tried in vain many times to get kids into yeshivas who were so willing to change just to get back not school. They were brushed off like flies only to go down the very dark journey of OTD. Those principals have no clue what achrius they are carrying and they won’t know till after 120 when Hashem points everything out to them. What a difference they could have made in these kids lives. They were so open and ready, so ripe for the picking. Why did they choose to be so very blind? Because their egos have grown too large for their positions. They need to take lessons of the previous gedolei hador, z”tl. They should try to remember who the true Roshei Yeshivas were and how they handled their Talmudic!

    #1183255
    a mamin
    Participant

    ARIES: OHY!!! Its so depressing……What happens with all the students who fall between the cracks….

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