Going off the Derech

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  • #1183500

    SaysMe
    Member

    Haven’t been on the CR in months…

    WOW- ur patience is really inspiring. and i dont even mean for your son! some of the comments and judgments and assumptions posted really upset me, and i would be quite defensive were they directed at me! you answer so calmly and peacefully… a lesson to me. and that was a tangent

    came on to share a glimmer of hope from this side! All my siblings and grandparents are coordinated to come to us for pesach this year for the first time in maybe 10 years. an invitation was extended to my brother to join, to see the family. He is considering!! I’m afraid to hope! even if he doesnt come, the fact that he is considering!! its a spark! a something! a tolerance for pesach for the benefit of seeing family? thats more than he’s had for years! i never knew if i’d see even this much again. BH for a spark of hope!

    #1183501

    write or wrong
    Participant

    owl-I’m not sure I agree with you. There are many wonderful frum therapists out there. Anyway, my son would never go to a frum therapist.

    SaysMe-Sparks are good! Never give up hoping and praying. Pesach is a special time, who knows what can happen? I hope that things work out for you and your family!

    #1183502

    smc
    Participant

    How was your pessach?

    #1183503

    write or wrong
    Participant

    smc-We had a nice Pesach, but unfortunately my son didn’t spend it with us. We hardly saw him. Still hoping and praying for nissim and niflaot! Thanks for asking.

    #1183506

    a mamin
    Participant

    WOW: Still having you in mind as always…..

    #1183508

    write or wrong
    Participant

    a mamin- Ani lo maamina that you still think of me!! Truly, we are Am echad!

    adams-thanks for your post. I really do hope that my story will end up happy like yours did. I’m not sure my son has a love of Hashem, which was probably key in bringing you back. Your mother sounds very special, as it is very difficult to be tested like this. My son is mechalel Shabbos without any regard to our feelings, and would never apologize for it. We are still ambivalent as to how to deal with it. If it was a one time thing, we might be able to look away. But it isn’t.

    #1183510

    Speaker
    Participant

    Every so often I check the blog. There are many success stories but a lot of work needs to go into it. As mentioned in the past. In the US we have a very powerful support group, and trust me it makes all the difference. Participants come from all parts of the world to learn how to deal with these kids. If a person had a sick child he / she would travel anywhere to save his / her life.

    Your son is not bad but he falls into the category of sick. A Trip to the US will help you and your husband with the much needed help to get your son back.

    My offer still stands – Free Room and Board.

    You will still see a bunch of Nachas from him. Hang in there…

    #1183511

    write or wrong
    Participant

    Speaker-thanks for your offer. My husband can’t embrace Avi’s approach. He can periodically, but when my son “tests” us, he gives in to his gut reaction. But if things change, I will let you know.

    I hope you are right. So much time has passed already, but we are still praying and hoping…

    #1183512

    Speaker
    Participant

    Your husband feels exactly like we ALL felt before we were trained by Avi. I threw my daughter out of my home! Most of us felt the same way as your husband does. Many of us wished that our children would disappear. He is perfectly normal feeling that way, however, I feel sorry for him for 3 reasons:

    1. My daughter today is married and shomer Torah umitzvoss because we fully embraced Avi’s approach of Twisted Parenting. In less than 3 years she went from being completely off the derech and out of control, to being a great source of pride and joy. She is probably our sweetest most caring child. I have seen so many parents who follow avi’s advice end up with amazing results, wouldn’t he want this same result?

    2. Aside from saving your son, look at the difference between your HUSBAND’S PAIN and my pain. Your husband actually has had much MORE pain that any of the parents who embraced Avi’s method.

    I was by Avi’s weekly meetings for THREE YEARS and I saw dozens of families come to him in WORSE shape than yours, and I have consistently seen tremendous change in both the “rebellious” children and the parents in so much pain.

    3. He needs to realize that we have a mesorah that teaches parents what Hashem wants us to do when faced with this situation. The Baal Shem Tov, the Chazon Ish, The Nesivos Shalom, R’ Shimshon Pincus, R’ Shach, R’ Pam and many more tzaddikim gave us clear hadrachah. A big part of this nisayon is that we parents are being challenged. We need to step up to the plate and follow what Hashem wants us to do. At least your husband should find out what THOSE TZADDIKIM wrote about your situation and follow their advice.

    If your husband would have another mihalech of treatment, that would be one thing, however, he is stuck with the pain and frustration that I personally experienced before coming to Avi, but he is choosing to live with this pain for several years for absolutely no toelles.

    Please ask him:

    1. does he really PREFER feeling this way day and night compared to changing the way HE feels and also actually possibly saving your sons life?

    2. If the way your son is acting is hurting him so much why not embrace the medicine that can perhaps change his behavior?

    The offer still stands…

    #1183513

    write or wrong
    Participant

    Speaker-I will try to discuss this again with my husband and see if he’s receptive. How much time do you think we’d need to be with Avi?

    #1183514

    Speaker
    Participant

    Avi is a long process but I think a few days with Avi and at the group will give you a good idea as to what is going on and give you the support you need to go forward.

    #1183515

    Imma613
    Participant

    Still thinking of you…still daven for your son every night. Hope you and your whole mishpacha are doing well. May HKB”H bring all of Klal Yisroel nechama during these y’mei aveilus and may all of Hashem’s children who have strayed return b’mheirah b’yameinu!

    #1183516

    pcoz
    Member

    Sometimes when kids get married their better half gets them to reconcile.

    #1183517

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I just wanted to add in light of recent events here in NY. Shunning can have tragic consequences

    #1183518

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    Don’t know what you’re referring to, however there was a sad case recently which resulted in a suicide because of the Footsteps organization that resulted in pushing a woman a way fro her family who were trying to be her support and were paying for her psychiatric care. This organization convicted this woman to cut off her connections to her past and ultimately this prove fatal for the woman.

    And of course the disgusting Forward and its writer are trying to ble this on the family. The only ones who actually cared for her and were actually trying to ho her.

    Sick organization and sick Forverts.

    #1183519

    mord13
    Member

    I dont what to tell but i just wish you hatzlacha

    #1183521

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its always hard to know the real truth and the real truth is always somewhere in the middle. But it does seem to me she was somewhat estranged from her family and did get some really bad advice from some of her OTD friends (Cant comment on what FS told or didnt tell her, I dont know) and throw in a fancy party at a fancy bar and tip off the NY Post and you have a tabloid article to sell newspapers at a families and community tradgety

    #1183522

    pcoz
    Member

    Family will often advise patients against continuing therapy if their improvement makes the family feel threatened.

    #1183523

    AZOI.IS
    Participant

    Can someone who is familiar with Twisted Parenting tell me how the OTD child feels more loved buy their parents, when the parents go out and buy jeans for them, etc as Twisted Parents recommends, if the child knows the parents are following a funny rule-book to get the OTD child back, and not because the parents have a new way of looking at the world? The OTD child knows the underlying reason.

    #1183524

    a- why should they know b- the fact that their parents are doing things for them that are definitely, in the short term, things that are negative to their feelings and still doing it for their offspring’s need or want that shows them that there is an unconditional love ticking inside them and that’s a turn on that at the end can trigger a happy return to the ways of hashem

    #1183525

    AZOI.IS
    Participant

    Ive read about “Twisted Parenting” recommending buying jeans, etc for OTD guys.

    What does “Twisted Parenting” recommend buying for OTD girls? Jeans also? If yes, how far does “Twisted Parenting” go in its suggestions that go against what is regarded as frum halachic observance for these special cases, to achieve the desired goals?

    This is really amazing that Gdolim are on board with this! Very very impressive.

    #1183526

    write or wrong
    Participant

    Imma613-sorry I didn’t see your post until now! Thanks for your well wishes and may you and your family have a very happy and healthy New Year with much Yiddishe nachas!

    Speaker-my husband has too many friends advising him differently. And even though TP has shown amazing results, it goes against every fiber of my husband’s being to support my son’s ‘ways’. Anyway, I think at this point, my son might be a bit too old for TP to be effective. I do wish we had been able to fully embrace TP when this all got started.

    #1183527

    crgo
    Participant

    Your son is 20 now? Don’t answer if u don’t feel like but – religion aside- is he in any kind of “misgeret” these days? Army? Work? College? I also remember when your next son was having trouble being considered for yeshiva. Without re-discussing the injustice of it all – has he done OK? And for you – has your life settled into some kind of livable pattern after the initial trauma of it all? Please don’t view this as prying – these questions come only from a place of caring and empathy from someone who’s been worrying about and “feeling” your “story” (?!) for these past few years. Please don’t answer, of course, if I’m being offensive.

    Have a k’siva v’chasima tova.

    #1183528

    Imma613
    Participant

    Amen! to you and your family as well!

    #1183529

    MsPrincess
    Member

    write or wrong – hows your son doing? its REALLY sad that this happened:( i have seen a boy like your son in my college class and its REALLY sad:( if your son is back on let me know and how would you recommend me helping a boy at college whos in the same issue.

    #1183530

    As a girl of the same age as the boy,

    I don’t think you’re supposed to be helping him.

    #1183531

    MsPrincess
    Member

    but then who will help him? also how do you know were the same age? how do you know im a girl and not a boy?

    #1183532

    Most people in college are of the same age (range).

    As for you being a girl, anyone named “MsPrincess”

    would be assumed to be a girl. But you asked, so I

    went looking and found a post where you explicitly

    claimed to be a girl – >here it is<.

    We generally take people at their word around here.

    #1183534

    MsPrincess
    Member

    im referring to another girl how do you know im not talking about my sister? and thats not true in my class we have much older people who came back when there retired or someone who never went to college before etc… to someone as young as 16.

    #1183535

    The other people in his life will help him.

    #1183536

    MsPrincess
    Member

    like who? his sister knows but he probably doesnt listen to her…. so why not grab the mitzvah?

    #1183537

    It is difficult to see how any part of “me helping a boy at college”

    could be referring to “another girl.” Or did you mean the post I linked

    to (I was mistaken – you only imply that you’re a girl in it)?

    That one says “what I did,” which is also hard to apply to “another girl.”

    As for why you shouldn’t grab the mitzvah,

    it is no mitzvah for you to talk to boys.

    (Rabbi Zecharya Wallerstein pretty much says so in a speech on YouTube,

    although he’s talking about convincing girls that their

    “helping their boyfriend with Yiddishkeit” is not a reason to

    not break up with them despite the relationship being wrong.

    Is he a more acceptable source for you, or only for another girl?)

    #1183538

    TheGoq
    Participant

    yeah people love random people telling them how to fix their lives great idea. (sarcasm)

    #1183539

    MsPrincess
    Member

    But the guy im referring to gets ride with not jewish girls. its better for him to go with jewish girls than not jewish. his referring to guys who go with other jewish girls. this guy is in a more serious condition. i know him because his in my class and we always have class discussions like in a high school.

    #1183540

    Mammele
    Participant

    MsPrincess: your life (in this case ruchniois) takes priority over his. So it’s a non starter. Now if you were older and someone stronger in Yiddishkeit like Rebbetzin Jungreis I’d say go for it…

    #1183541

    MsPrincess
    Member

    How do you know im not very spiritual when it happens to be i am? also im probably becoming an ncsy advisor thanks to seeing what i saw happened to that boy since i want to help people like that.

    #1183542

    TheGoq
    Participant

    Just because you want to help does not mean he want’s your help.

    #1183543

    MsPrincess
    Member

    How do you know he doesnt want my help? we talk out of class were around the same age im friends with his sisters.

    #1183544

    pcoz
    Member

    I.e. there is no mitzva of lo saamod al dam reechah in case of drowning and shema yitva gam hu.

    #1183545

    Joseph
    Participant

    And if she’ll likely drown herself if she goes in to pull him?

    #1183546

    MsPrincess
    Member

    So i should just stand by as i see a boy who comes from a very religious good family get into a car with a bunch of not jewish girls from my class?

    #1183547

    2scents
    Participant

    I am in no position to really advise you on such sensitive subjects, however from the limited amount of information you posted you mentioned that this boy goes out with non jewish girls, yet you are for some reason convinced that you befriending him would draw him away from those girls and closer to yiddishkeit.

    now who says that you wont be drawn closer to his life, for me it appears that the risks outweight the benefits.

    In fact being between people, its more likely that you will be pulled into his world then the other way around.

    #1183548

    MsPrincess
    Member

    I am friends with not jewish people and was sort of friends with not jewish girls he was friends with. being around them and still being very religious i was not affected at all.

    #1183549

    Mammele
    Participant

    I didn’t say you’re not spiritual, just not mature in years nor strong enough in your Yiddishkeit (the example I used was Rebbetizin Jungreis) which only comes with age, fighting nisyonos, learning halachos and hashkafa, loads of siyata diShmaya — and preferably marriage to take away your gullibility.

    You are not an unbiased bystander to judge if you were effected or not. But even if you’re right — this boy knows that what he’s doing is wrong — it’s not a simple matter to dissuade him for someone inexperienced in dealing with OTD kids.

    You mentioned he has sisters, do you think they haven’t tried everything to bring him back? Most likely if you mention anything to him he’ll either become confrontational or invite you to join them. As a frum girl you CAN NOT OFFER HIM WHAT THESE GIRLS ARE OFFERING! I really don’t know why you’re looking for trouble. If you feel guilty doing nothing ask a shaila if you should notify his parents or siblings who he’s he’s going out with.

    #1183550

    So i should just stand by as i see a boy who comes from a very religious good family get into a car with a bunch of not jewish girls from my class?

    Yes, I think so.

    (If how wrong it is to get into a car with a girl depends on how assur she is to you, it would be worse for him to get into a car with you.)

    #1183551

    MsPrincess
    Member

    i forgot to add that his sister asked me if she and him can get a ride because she didnt want him going with not jewish girls and she rather him go with a jewish girl. your right i may have been wrong by talking to the same kinds of people and him but that did NOT make me less religious and i also got a ride with a not jewish girl both of us are friends with and my mother was okay with it which is why i felt that it was okay.

    #1183552

    write or wrong
    Participant

    MsPrincess- Although you may have noble reasons for wanting to talk to this boy, you should not be connecting to any boy for any reason! If you want to help him, contact kiruv organizations and give the information to his sisters. Hatzlacha!

    #1183553

    MsPrincess
    Member

    hows your son? the sister knows im sure shes also trying to help him. i heard the mother talking to her son and the mother is in the same situation like you. maybe shes the one who decided with her daughter that it would be good for him to get a ride with me if the sister came? (you probably would know better than me what the mother was thinking.)

    #1183554

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Msprincess

    I know you want to help, but you will likely fail. Being an NCSY counselor is not the same as being a professional.

    When you fail you will not feel good and feel as a failure yourself even though you did nothing wrong. You can also do more harm than good.

    Please run away from this situation.

    #1183555

    2scents
    Participant

    Could be I do not know enough about you or the situation at hand or what is considered an appropriate relationship in your circles to even make a bystander comment, but you having non Jewish friends or taking rides with non Jewish Girls is no where the same as you befriending a boy that is in what you call a sad situation.

    The risk of him pulling you over to his ‘sad’ situation is probably greater than you being able to change him.

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