Going on Vacation without a Minyan

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  • #1571144

    1
    Participant

    Is it muttar to take a vacation to a place, where you won’t be able to daven with a minyan? Not talking about women or someone who has a unique psak for doing so (psychological, physical, etc).

    #1571164

    laskern
    Participant

    I will rephrase your question. Are you allowed to do something currently (where you don’t do anything wrong) which will cause that later on you have to rely on a bedaved davening without a minyan?

    #1571165

    laskern
    Participant

    You can’t compare it to the case where the hot water spilled on shabbos because there is mitzva to do milah which causes the pikuach nefesh to heat water after. Here there is no mitzva to go on vacation.

    #1571161

    Joseph
    Participant

    No. A vacation is not a shas hadchak.

    #1571187

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Ask your LOR

    #1571190

    laskern
    Participant

    Joseph, did you see the rephrasing of the question. There is nothing wrong
    in going to a vacation. You daven with a minyan before you leave.

    #1571219

    1
    Participant

    Laskern,
    Not what i asked. I asked if you can go to a place, for vacation, where no minyan is available.
    Laskern, I meant going on an overnight vacation e.g. some exotic island

    Zahavasdad,
    cop out answer

    #1571239

    Avi K
    Participant

    If it is in EY it is definitely permitted as it is a mitzva.

    #1571211

    Phil
    Participant

    1,

    Posing questions on this site elicits fake halacha from Joseph. Ask your LOR and find one if you don’t have one.

    #1571261

    1
    Participant

    Avi K,
    What shaychis? You can find a minyan in almost every place in EY. You might need a taxi or a bus to get there, but you can find.

    #1571289

    GAON
    Participant

    Las, then again you can’t compare the mitzvah of milah to minyan
    Asides it not even a deO’raysa, according to many shitos, you can not make an Eruv Techuman on order to go daven with a a minyan.

    Also, as per halacha there is shiur how far you need to travel ro go to a minyan. I would assume, there are no halachos about not traveling at all.

    #1571326

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its not a cop out answer, because its not so cut and dry, there are different opinions on this

    Mincha and Maariv are especially hard to get in many places, even if they have a Shachris

    #1571409

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I know someone who asked this very question of his LOR. The answer given. Muttar, yes. The Ravs haskama, no.

    #1571399

    1
    Participant

    It is a cop out. You have to daven mincha and maariv with a minyan.

    #1571425

    1
    Participant

    Why’s it muttar?

    #1571488

    samthenylic
    Participant

    That is the trouble with this on-line forum! Don’t take the easy (lazy) way out. Ask a competent Posek how to deal with your situation.

    #1571503

    laskern
    Participant

    1 – I explained already that assuming that you have a good reason going to this place on vacation, so you are not doing anything wrong since you davened already with a minyan before you left. It is recommended that, if there is a shul, daven there and the time when people daven.

    #1571525

    rational jew
    Participant

    Does anyone have a source for the halachic obligation (not just the importance which can be seen in brachot 6 – 8,) to pray with ten men?

    #1571537

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Phil,

    “Posing questions on this site elicits fake halacha from Joseph. Ask your LOR and find one if you don’t have one”

    I wouldn’t worry about 1. He and Joseph just did a CR “alley-oop” play that’s pretty common around here. The “Question” thread about pru urvu is another example of the same.

    I think most people here know to “AYLOR” the real shailas. It’s clear that the OP seems to think he already has the answer, and just wants to hock about it.

    #1571541

    laskern
    Participant

    Shulchan Aruch O”CH 90:9

    #1571552

    DovidBT
    Participant

    Does anyone have a source for the halachic obligation (not just the importance which can be seen in brachot 6 – 8,) to pray with ten men?

    Another source for the importance, not halachic, seems to be Psalms 82:1: “… G-d stands in the Divine assembly …”

    #1571591

    GAON
    Participant

    Laskern,
    Lets rephrase the question:

    Are you permitted to create an Eruv Techuman in order to go daven with Minyan on Shabbos?

    #1571595

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Why’s it muttar?”

    Probably because Tefilla is a chiyuv, tefilla bitzibur is not. There are certainly many maalos to tefila bitzibur, (which is probably one of the reasons why the Rav said you dont have my haskama for such a plan).

    #1571623

    laskern
    Participant

    There is a Baal Haturim on ויקץ יעקב משנתו ויאמר Yaakov Avinu woke up from his sleep and said, has the last letters צבור indicating that ones prayer is only listened to in unity. We need each others zachusim that our prayers be listened to. It says before אכן יש ה’ במקום הזה ואנכי לא ידעתי could be related to the above, Hashem exists in this place provided I put aside my egotism.

    #1571644

    1
    Participant

    Apushta it’s certainly a chiyuv. It’s a minhag adopted as halacha

    #1571653

    laskern
    Participant

    It does not say in the above mentioned source that it is a chiyuv, It says that effort should be exerted. More important to daven in a shul and the time people are davening.

    #1571655

    GAON
    Participant

    1,

    It is not exactly a chiyuv gamur, as I pointed out the key to the question is the answer to the above.

    “Are you permitted to create an Eruv Techuman in order to go daven with Minyan on Shabbos?

    #1571667

    laskern
    Participant

    I think the argument between Yaakov Avinu and the brothers is, if to satisfy the judgement requirement for kidnapping do you have to kill the whole city of Shechem or satisfy the requirement by some other means like making them slaves.

    #1571678

    laskern
    Participant

    The MB in O”CH 415:4 mentions the creating an Eruv Texhuman for a minyan is a mitzva.

    #1571675

    1
    Participant

    Who’s talking about shabbos?

    #1571760

    laskern
    Participant

    Gaon, does permission of Erev Techumin required to be a Chiyuv or just a Mitzva?

    #1571735

    GAON
    Participant

    Las,
    “I think the argument between Yaakov Avinu and the brothers is,”

    You meant to post it on the other thread 🙂

    #1571728

    GAON
    Participant

    1,
    I will elaborate, Eruv Techuman can only be made in terms of performing a mitzvah, like קבלת פני רבו on YT.

    Now, there are Rishonim that specifically state that you are NOT permitted to make an Eruv Techuman in order to daven with minyan, hence we see clear thar there is grey area here.

    #1571733

    GAON
    Participant

    Las,

    See Magen Avrohom there that the Maharil does not exactly permit it. And there other Rishonim in Eruvin that clearly forbid it.
    My point is the very fact that there are shitos that do not allow an Eruv Techuman for the sake of minyan, indicates that iy is not exactly a chiyuv, and one may travel without a minyan
    .
    However, there is of course the issue that even if it’s permitted you still losing out on all great inyanim that minyan tefilah has to offer, that your prayers are answered even without total kavanah etc..whereas beychidot you need total kavanah etc..

    #1571727

    Git Meshige
    Participant

    It is absolutely permissible to go on vacation if there is no minyan. Shulchan Aruch discusses the obligation of going to a minyan in the town or area where one is located and there is a minyan taking place so one is obligated to go. And refers to one that does not go as shochen rah. Whereas it is not written anywhere prohibiting anyone to go to a place where there is no minyan

    #1571851

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Does one have to take a more expensive flight overseas if he knows that the cheaper one will not have a minyan?

    Does one have to change a date on a flight if can somehow know in advance that on the current date he most likely will not have minyan.

    Should one take a stopover flight rathwr then direct if he knows he wont have minyan on the direct flight.?

    If one normally wears a hat to daven , but he lost his hat. Should he daven with or without mnyan because of the embarrassment.

    #1571884

    laskern
    Participant

    Takes2 – Look at the Baer Hetev O:CH 90:13 many of your questions will be answered.

    #1571902

    laskern
    Participant

    No, in either way, people who care will ask, where is your hat or they don’t know and their won’t be an embarassment. As according to the Baer
    Hetev above you are not mechuyav to spend any money on a minyan but not gaining money might be different.

    • This reply was modified 4 days, 22 hours ago by  laskern.
    • This reply was modified 4 days, 22 hours ago by  laskern.
    #1571912

    laskern
    Participant

    Gaon, you did not answer my question in 1571760 as it says mitzva and not chiyuv.

    #1571926

    GAON
    Participant

    Takes2,

    Without going into details – As per the Gemorah in Pesachim 46a and in Shu”A you only need to go back a “MIL” which is 2000 Amos, figure out the time it takes to walk 2000 amos. Hence, that is the time you are required to invest as per halacha to participate davening with a minyan.

    Making a stop is much more time that.

    However, in any case, there is surely an inyan and one should try even on the cost of money if one can afford it. It is no diff than spending more on a esrog or buying a fancy leichter for shabbos etc.

    #1571944

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Just curious who chabad shluchim rely on to move lechatchilla to a place with no minyan.
    They must have a shita which they rely on because theyve been moving to remote places for
    Many many years now

    #1571952

    GAON
    Participant

    Las, and all;

    Here is a fascinating responsum from haPosek HaGadol Rav Henkin ZT”L in his sefer פירושי לב איברא.
    I remembered someone proving from Eruv Techuman…

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=3217&st=&pgnum=158&hilite=

    #1571956

    GAON
    Participant

    Las,

    Correct a Mitzvah is enough for Techumn, same reason you can use it for a Chasunah etc.

    And that is exactly my point regarding the Maharil forbidding an Eruv for Minyan – that its basically only a “hidur” in Mitzvah of Tefilah not a complete mitzvah, at least shitah of the Mahril, the M”A disagrees though .

    And I think the Tosfos R”P in Eruvin also paskens like the Maharil.

    #1572587

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Is having a minyan to daven with the reason why we read about chashuvah rabbonim going off to exotic locations on vacations and schlepping along a number of their chassidim with them? Its expensive enough just to fly the rav and his family on chartered flights or business class as is sometimes the case but the costs become substantially greater to the Rav’s mosdos to absorb if he must also fly another 7-8 chassidim (since I assume he will take at least one or two gaaboim with him irrespective of the minyan question).

    #1572625

    1
    Participant

    Got meshige that doesn’t explain anything

    #1572624

    1
    Participant

    Takes-2 a meschichist isn’t a ra’ayah

    #1572649

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Two-2-Tango……the rebbe explicitly addressed the issue of his shalichim locating in areas where there were a lot more challenges for a frum yid than just not having a minyan for davening. How about not having access to kosher food, no yeshiva for the kids, no mikvah, etc. While one obviously doesn’t earn the same z’chus for going trekking in the Himalayas as he would for bringing unaffiliated yidden back to yiddeshkeit, presumably if it was per se assur, the Rebbe would never have sent hundreds of his chassidim to locations where a minyan would be a rarity for most of the year.

    #1572664

    shimen
    Participant

    see shu’t shevat haleyvy vol 9, 60 (not sure)

    #1572667

    GAON
    Participant

    1,

    Takes-2 a meschichist isn’t a ra’ayah”

    Why are you bringing up Meshichists? Chabad has sent shluchim there way before Meshichist movement came about.

    Also, in the rebbes mind its an inyan of saving neshomos, that would have been eternal lost.

    No doubt it overides minyan, no less than all yiden who liven in ‘Kefarim’ all year long and only came in for Rosh hashanah, megilah etc. becuase of Parnasah..

    #1572669

    Eli51
    Participant

    There is a new trend especially in Toronto where people go to one of two cottage areas one that has a minyan & one that doesn’t. The problem is that some families stay in this cottage tthat doesn’t have a minyan for Shabbos. I think if people stay in such a place for Shabbos & it’s because of Shalom Bayis where the wife is the one that wants to go on such a vacation the husband should take his wife to their LOR to ask a shaila if it’s muttar to go on a vacation where they will miss Minyan on Shabbos.

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