Going on Vacation without a Minyan

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  • #1572687

    GAON
    Participant

    Eli,
    While you should ask your Rabbi. However, where do you find minyan on Shabbos is more important than mid week?

    #1574198

    knaidlach
    Participant

    listen my dear friends. we are avoiding the main issue.
    we all know that there are many yidden would never go to a place where there is no minyan and no mikva to be used before davening. and there are those that they would go without even thinking its an issue.
    ask yourself how is your dedication to a mityzva, hidur mitzva??? after all its chodesh elul, right time for cheshbon hanefesh

    #1574228

    1
    Participant

    The question should really be should one go on vacation to a place where he definitely will miss minyan or should he go to as place where there are minyanim e.g. Israel

    #1574256

    1
    Participant

    Knaidlach
    Exactly

    #1574318

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Given that the vast percentage of frum yidden do not toivel in mkivah every morning before davening, I’m not sure that adding the additional criteria of having a mikvah at the vacation location is relevant.

    #1574302

    Milhouse
    Participant

    There is no question that if you are in a place where there is no minyan, and the closest minyan is more than 18 minutes out of your way, you are permitted to daven without one. The question posed here is whether it is permitted lechatchila to put oneself in such a situation, by going to such a place for no compelling reason but as mere amusement, טיול בעלמא.

    I will pose a better question: is it permitted lechatchila, for טיול בעלמא, to put oneself in a situation where pikuach nefesh will require one to break shabbos? If this is permitted then kol shekein it is permitted to go somewhere where there is no minyan.

    Well, we have an answer to this question: If it is for טיול בעלמא then it is not permitted in the second half of the week, when one ought already to be thinking about Shabbos, but it is permitted in the first half of the week. If it’s for a more important purpose then it’s allowed even on Erev Shabbos. (Sh”A OC 248:3)

    When is one supposed to be planning for the next tefillah? For shachris from the first light, for mincha from mincha ketana, and for maariv from sunset. In each case, once one has davened one need not plan for the next tefillah until its time comes. So it would seem to me that it is permitted to go on such a journey, even for טיול בעלמא, so long as one does not leave at a time when one has a chiyuv tefillah pending right then.

    #1574258

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Did those Yidden & rabbis who traveled to other towns and cities by horse, buggy, boat or by foot during the Middle – modern Ages , daven with a minyan?
    Great tzaddikim did golus wanderings and stopped at inns at night, or visited other places……frum Yidden traveled for business of all kinds, and where was the minyan?

    #1574206

    ZionGate
    Participant

    A Question:
    Did Yidden, especially rabbonim, who traveled from city to city via horse & buggy years ago daven with a minyan? Or those holy tzaddikim who “praah’ved” golus, travelling and stopping at inns for weeks , daven with a minyan? Or rabbonim during the Middle- to rather -modern, Ages who wended their ways to EY , sometimes by boat, daven with a minyan?
    For the most part, I don’t think so.

    #1574379

    Joseph
    Participant

    ZionGate: Traveling for business/parnassa is a different halachic shaila than traveling for pleasure. Especially since one can travel for pleasure at alternative vacation places that DO have minyanim three times a day.

    #1574452

    1
    Participant

    ZionGate, We have cars now.

    Edited

    #1574570

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Joseph :
    My point is that davening with a minyan is apparently not an absolute, because
    those that traveled years ago didn’t take others with them to make the minyan, they knew they would daven w/o one, and did…
    1…… You didn’t get my point….

    Edited

    #1574475

    GAON
    Participant

    Mill,

    Good point, however the very concept of ‘Minyan’ to Shabbos or any other definite mitzvah is no comparison. Please refer to the above link i posted from Rav Henkin’s psak.

    Zion,

    You can take it a step further, people lived in villages all yr long without any minyan. (See beg of Mesechet Megilah) They had no obligation to go move elsewhere.

    However, tzadikim were able to have proper kavanah, whereas us simple folks do not, so losing out on minyan effects our tefilah. That is something one should take into consideration. Nonetheless, from halachik perspective is a diff story.

    #1574602

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There are very few places that have Shabbos Minyans and even less with Daily Minyans

    While you might make a list and think its alot, its really nothing. Even in New York state, remove NYC and Rockland, How many daily minyanim do you think are in NY , Not alot. Even places with Chabad houses or Young Israels dont always have Daily Minyans, they are really hard to get

    #1574607

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    ?However, tzadikim were able to have proper kavanah, whereas us simple folks do not, so losing out on minyan effects our tefilah. That is something one should take into consideration [when planning travel]”

    I respectfully suggest that for many of us, its easier to daven with kavanah by ourselves w/o a minyan as compared to the talking, gossipiing, walking in and out, etc. one encounters these days at many minyanim

    #1574615

    Meno
    Participant

    I respectfully suggest that for many of us, its easier to daven with kavanah by ourselves w/o a minyan as compared to the talking, gossipiing, walking in and out, etc. one encounters these days at many minyanim

    Sounds like a good cop-out.

    Many of us have more than one option when it comes to minyanim. If the talking is so bad that it affects your concentration, the alternative should be davening at a different minyan rather than davening at home.

    Personally, I can’t remember the last time I encountered talking in shul which disrupted my concentration.

    #1574619

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    👍 Meno

    #1574627

    GAON
    Participant

    “I respectfully suggest that for many of us, its easier to daven with kavanah by ourselves w/o a minyan as compared ”

    Gadol,

    I would really like the see your (or anyone else) ultimate Kavanah differences comparing…

    Meno,

    Great point, however, what if there is only ONE minyan in town?

    I recall Rav Chaim of Volozhin addresses that issue and says, that at the end of the day, our Kavanah will never be perfect so you should indeed daven with Minyan no matter the situation.

    #1574643

    apushatayid
    Participant

    My 2 cents….

    If the vacation (and I am discussing a vacation, a trip for pleasure, NOT the need to go somewhere for medical help or other pressing matter) to location X is desired because of specific amenities (eg, spa, roller coaster, hotel suite) not available elsewhere, it shows that amenity X is more important than tefilla bitzibur. to that I say, how sad, that someone doesnt understand the importance of tefila bitzibur, or assigns it a lower priority than that amenity.

    Would this question be somehow related to the one on succos, may one travel somewhere where he will not have a succa and just eat things that dont require a succa?

    #1574660

    laskern
    Participant

    Kavono by tefilah is discussed in S”A O”CH 98:2.

    #1574661

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If the vacation (and I am discussing a vacation, a trip for pleasure, NOT the need to go somewhere for medical help or other pressing matter) to location X is desired because of specific amenities (eg, spa, roller coaster, hotel suite) not available elsewhere, it shows that amenity X is more important than tefilla bitzibur. to that I say, how sad, that someone doesnt understand the importance of tefila bitzibur, or assigns it a lower priority than that amenity

    One might want to go on vacation to see a wonder of Hashem, many of these places do not have Minyanim, Like if you want to see the Aurora Borelalis , A Solar Eclipse or the Geysers of Yellowstone for example

    #1574704

    apushatayid
    Participant

    One might, but that has nothing to do with my example.

    #1574726

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    apushatayid…….you would be amazed how often we have found minyanim forming up spontaneously at Old Faithful in Yellowstone Park (no pun intended) and other national monuments and other major tourist locations where groups of yidden are visiting and “solicit” other yidden to join them in a minyan for mincha. I think the issue here is whether is willing to forego travel to all but the US, EY and a few major cities or on occasion, daven b’yachid to be able to see the Ebeshter’s world. One might ask why would the Ebeshter have created these locations if his yidden were foreclosed from seeing the wonders of his creations?

    #1574746

    DovidBT
    Participant

    One might ask why would the Ebeshter have created these locations if his yidden were foreclosed from seeing the wonders of his creations?

    That line of argument could easily be used to rationalize transgressions. 🙂

    #1574758

    Eli51
    Participant

    If people want to go to a cottage or another place without a minyan here is a perfect solution try making a group trip to that area where there will be at least ten men & borrow a sefer Torah than there will be a Minyan.

    #1574770

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    One might ask why would the Ebeshter have created these locations if his yidden were foreclosed from seeing the wonders of his creations?

    That line of argument could easily be used to rationalize transgressions.

    I think its a Mitzvah to see a Natural Wonder and say a Bracha, I am pretty sure you at least say a Bracha on an eclipse

    #1574870

    adocs
    Participant

    ZD

    If there is a bracha on an eclipse, what is it and what is your source for that?

    (Hint: there isn’t one)

    #1574873

    1
    Participant

    Zahavasdad there are plenty of natural wonders in Israel

    #1574915

    Milhouse
    Participant

    ZionGate, all your examples are of travel for a purpose, not for mere amusement. Such travel may be initiated even on Erev Shabbos, knowing that pikuach nefesh will require chilul shabbos along the way. Kol shekein it may be initiated even in the knowledge that there will be no minyan. The question we’re discussing here is whether one may go where there is no minyan for no good reason, but merely for amusement.

    #1574949

    GAON
    Participant

    1,
    “there are plenty of natural wonders in Israel”

    And that ia precisely why all admorim from Israel are traveling to the Swiss Alps

    #1575044

    apushatayid
    Participant

    if someone is truly traveling lesheim shamayim, to see the wonders of hashems world, that does not fall into the “vacation” I mentioned. Now, one may certainly talk himself into this rationale, and thats fine, just remember the only one you are fooling is yourself, you certainly are not fooling hashem.

    #1575042

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Milhouse,
    :……The question we’re discussing here is whether one may go where there is no minyan for no good reason, but merely for amusement…..”

    I understand what you’re discussing…. But in discussing MINYAN, I’m simply pointing out that travelers did not daven with a minyan, whether it was for business, leisure, hiboddedus, visiting , etc..
    Am I allowed to expand on the subject MINYAN in general, or must I stick to Disney , Boiberick and/or Hutzenplutz?

    Even on planes today, there are psaks that in order not to inconvenience crew and passengers, one can daven in the seat even though there’s a minyan on board..

    “…..ZionGate, all your examples are of travel for a purpose….”

    Of course… Every travel has a purpose..
    Maybe my examples are a nuisance to those who want to stick to chatting about vacations minyans only..
    In that case, go back to the pool, flip the sunglasses and enjoy the lemonade…
    Watch the sun..!

    #1575018

    laskern
    Participant

    Eclipse is considered the sun or the moon is hit, so there is no brocho.

    #1575090

    ZionGate
    Participant

    “….pikuach nefesh will require chilul shabbos along the way….”

    Not talking about pikuach nefesh either.
    Just expanding the subject of MINYAN , which is the major component of the discussion.

    #1575100

    DavidtheKanoi
    Participant

    Firstly I would like to refer you to an explicit Teshuva of the late Rav Wosner ZT”L on this subject in his Shevet Halevi (you will find the exact location in the index).
    Rav Chaim Kanievsky also made it clear that people should daven all tefillos with a Minyan during Bein Hazmanim.
    Secondly given the many tragedies and dangers r”l during the holidays people are certainly advised at least to do some proper davening with Minyan.

    #1575107

    GAON
    Participant

    adoc,

    “If there is a bracha on an eclipse, what is it and what is your source for that?’

    It does not matter – as in theory he’s correct, a Masei Breshis should have been recited. The only reason, I recall, is because it is considered a ‘siman rah’, but is still one of the wonders.

    #1575104

    GAON
    Participant

    apush..

    “just remember the only one you are fooling is yourself, you certainly are not fooling hashem.’

    That goes to every action including the bitul torah it creates. Minyan is only a hiddur and Bitul Torah is something you can never really rectify.

    Mainly, when one goes for vacation to recharge and be able to continue with avodas hashem/life as a jew that too is enough of a reason…

    #1575112

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The reason more people get hurt Bein Hazamin is that they are out of the house, you are more likley to get hurt outside walking or driving than sitting in the Beis Medrash

    #1575116

    GAON
    Participant

    David,

    “Rav Chaim Kanievsky also made it clear that people should daven all tefillos with a Minyan during Bein Hazmanim.”

    That does not help the very question in OP, as of course one should daven with minyan wherein its available.
    The issue is if one should refrain to travel vacationing for the lack of minyan..

    In regard to Halcaha I posted earlier, and will re-post again:

    Here is a fascinating responsum from haPosek HaGadol Rav Henkin ZT”L in his sefer פירושי לב איברא.

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=3217&st=&pgnum=158&hilite=

    He is basically saying the Chiyuv to be ‘Mishtatef b’Minyan’ only pertains when one is next to a minyan, otherwise, it is basically only a hiddur..

    #1575143

    adocs
    Participant

    “Rav Chaim Kanievsky also made it clear that people should daven all tefillos with a Minyan during Bein Hazmanim.”

    Of course. And obviously people should not sleep in and miss shacharis b’tzibur or be lazy and miss mincha/maariv just because they’re “off” from Yeshiva. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s assur to do a productive activity (yes. vacation/relaxing/amusement can be productive) unless there are 3 minyanim a day in the vicinity.

    Someone can be very committed to tefila b’tzibur and still make a cheshbon for the sake of his family to go on a trip where a mincha minyan (or any minyan) might not be possible. Either extreme (either not caring about minyan at all or never going anywhere without 3 minyanim a day) is well, extreme.

    #1575148

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Come on, he might say there is no chiyuv, but he does not relegate it to “hiddur”. In fact, he says one should daven IN A SHUL even without a minyan because of the maala of a shul. The teshuva explicitly says there is no chiyuv to daven with a minyan, however it is your extrapolation that relegates it to a “hiddur”.

    #1575158

    GAON
    Participant

    Apusht,

    Scroll down and see how he tries to explains Rashi and Shu”a that one needs to go 4 MIL..

    As far as “Chiyuv”is concerned there is no Halachik Chiyuv.

    #1575164

    GAON
    Participant

    “In fact, he says one should daven IN A SHUL even without a minyan because of the maala of a shul”

    Hidur is still sort of a’ Chiyuv’ (though with limits – see B”K 9b). So I don’t see where in contradicts.

    #1575165

    1
    Participant

    Gaon because the program pays them to come

    #1575166

    1
    Participant

    Gaon and those admorim make a minyan when they go to Switzerland. Do they go to Peru to see machu pichu or to Greece to see the clear blue waters of those beaches? The natural wonders excuse is a cover up for bad intentions, by many lay jews.

    #1575183

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Going to Macchu Pichu isnt a problem, there is a Chabad house in Cusco which is near Macchu Pichu.

    There is a Chabad House and some Shuls in Athens, Greece, It isnt Santorini, but it is close

    #1575188

    ZionGate
    Participant

    “……Gaon and those admorim make a minyan when they go to Switzerland. Do they go to Peru to see machu pichu or to Greece to see the clear blue waters of those beaches?…..”

    And if they did, what would be wrong with that? Somehow , I’m sure they’d get their minyan there… Who pays anyway???

    “…..The natural wonders excuse is a cover up for bad intentions, by many lay jews….”.
    Boom…!!! Kindly explain “bad intentions.”

    Rav Shamshon R. Hirsch, on the verse “Kol Hashem Behadar”:
    The voice of Hashem is IN beauty, BE’hadar……. Whatever and wherever a person sees and finds beauty in this world, be it an idea, a dvar Torah, a flower, art. music, waters of Greece, geysers, Mach Picchu and hippos,…. Hashem’s voice speaks through it .
    So, was the intention of your thread to bash Yidden and their bad intentions?

    #1575389

    ZionGate
    Participant

    I’m chill, 1…
    Now, what made you think of ladies near the waters??
    I’ve been to the Alps…. Only cows with bells, grandiose peaks, shepherds, heavy German dialects, local women dress in national costume tznius’dig … long dresses, head scarves… No female tourists to be found who dress b’hefkeirus at all…
    All wear long dresses and burkas…. Amazing place , this Switzerland…

    #1575517

    1
    Participant

    But you responded about Greece

    #1575581

    DovidBT
    Participant

    In summary, this thread has proven that you can go on vacation to a place where there is no minyan, provided that said place has beautiful natural scenery that brings you closer to Hashem.

    Is that accurate?

    #1575664

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If you want to go somewhere tzniut, go to San Francisco. Nobody is dressing untzniut there, Its really cold there, I needed to buy a sweatshirt in the middle of August

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