going to football games

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  • #601757

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    What’s the problem with going to a football game in the northeast

    No one is dressed pritzusdik, not even the cheerleaders

    #872186

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    NOTHING

    In Fact they sell Kosher Food at Giants Stadium (Vaad of Queens), The Eagles Stadium and the Ravens Stadium (Star-K I think)

    #872187

    ED IT OR
    Participant

    football or handball or soccer?

    anyway why are you presuming its wrong you sound so defensive

    #872188

    sam4321
    Participant

    See Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 126:4(Hilchos Zecher L’Churban).

    #872189

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Figures a Brit would confuse SOCCER with REAL Football

    #872190

    sam4321
    Participant

    See Also Mesches Avoda Zara 18b.On this topic the Shulchan Aruch 307:16 discuss moshav leitzim and bitul Torah.

    Zahvasdad: Just because someone sells kosher food doesn’t mean that kashers the event it is sold.

    #872191

    mamashtakah
    Member

    Nothing is wrong with it. Some of the best times of my childhood were spent with my father when he took me to see the Baltimore Colts at Memorial Stadium. He had season tickets for years. Johnny Unitas, John Mackey, Bubba Smith . . .

    #872192

    GeshmakMan
    Participant

    Zahavasdad – please explain to me the connection between Kosher food being sold at games to Jews being “allowed” to go?

    I went to a wedding played be Neginah, where there was mixed dancing and no Mechitza, does that mean that its ok b/c a Jewish band played there?

    I have been to weddings officiated by Frum Rabbanim, where the bride isn’t wearing sleeves, is her dress ok b/c a Rov was there?

    I go to games all the time, and there are plenty of issues with going, but the fact that Strickly Kosher sells kosher food at Citi Field, doesn’t make it “Mutar”. It just means that a guy is a smart business man and is making money!

    Every so often when I am at a game, the crowd’s behavior and language makes me wonder why I am there and also makes me thank Hashem that I am Jewish.

    Go Giants!

    #872193

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    It’s a moshav leitzim.

    #872194

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Sam4231 and the coffee room isn’t bitul Torah?

    #872195

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    So the problem is that its mosheiv leitzim then its no different than stam sitting with someone else without learning (I think the gemara brings the passuk for that too)

    On a joking matter, the problem wouldn’t arise then if I stood the whole time

    #872196

    sam4321
    Participant

    lesschumras: Someone asked a question and I gave mekoros,I did not say anything from myself and I did not say I am better than anyone.There is also a difference in being makir the emes and doing what is right. The idea of bitul Torah is complicated,is sleeping bitul Torah, is taking a break bitul Torah? I am in no way saying it is not bitul Torah sometimes ,but sometimes it is a healthy outlet.

    #872197

    Toi
    Participant

    ive never been to one but the general concensus of people ive heard talking about it is that ther fans are rowdier and drunker then any other sport. that would point to bad.

    #872198

    longarekel
    Member

    It is assur because it is a moshav leitzim (see Avoda Zara 18b). And the biggest laitzanus is that they have kosher food there. Anyone with any sensitivity for matters of ruchnius and who has healthy jewish pride cannot step foot anywhere near such a place. And the coffee room is what you make of it. There are those who learn torah while drinking coffee in the coffee room.

    #872199

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    lesschumras – Forget bitul torah. The Gemara sam4 cites says it’s a moshav leitzim.

    #872200

    zahavasdad: thats what the jews said when they went to achashveirosh’s party “there is kosher food so what can be the problem”.

    #872201

    pinay
    Participant

    If you are not sensitive to cursing, fighting, and public drunkenness then I guess there is nothing wrong with it.

    #872202

    feivel
    Participant

    i frequently take my little kids to bars and pool-halls. although there is a lot of behavior and language here that they really shouldnt be seeing and hearing, i think it will help them in the future to cope with the real world. i dont agree with all the “fanatics” who say we should isolate our Jewish children from negative goyish influences.

    some of the places even serve kosher food. so it MUST be okay!

    i know some of you might say that it is illegal to take kids to places like that. could be, if so maybe i will have to stop taking them, but surely its ok for ME to go. i mean im an adult, and smart, and have self control. i can just ignore all the language and the women and how they are dressed and just concentrate on the game and having fun.

    its mutar!

    im not going to blindly follow those who try to push chumras down my throat. i dont have to impress anyone with what a good Eved Hashem i am. as long as everything i do is according to Halachah, thats just fine. i mean does Hashem go out of his way for me? why should i have to go out of my way for Him?

    #872203

    feivel
    Participant

    not on this thread. I’ve just logged on

    #872204

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    lemme guess – you’re playing devil’s advocate?

    #872205

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If you dont like Sports, that is fine. I am not asking you to.

    However if you are going to BAN it, what “KOSHER L’MAHADRIN” form of diversion do you propose.

    #872206

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    BTW Ive been to yeshiva Chinese auctions including such as Chofetz Chaim / Bais yaakov where the prizes have been Mets / Yankees / Giants / Rangers or Jets Tickets

    Ive also been on group trip to Sporting events from FRUM organizations (Baseball , Hockey and basketball) there are no group tickets to Giants / Jets

    #872207

    longarekel
    Member

    No, he’s playing the devil.

    #872208

    lesschumras
    Participant

    It seems to me that your definition of maishev laitzim and bitul Torah is anything you don’t find enjoyment in. The shulchan aruch.never heard of football. Identified to hockey game last week: there was no cursing.drunkenness or rowdy behavior. Other than the Rangers losing,it was an enjoyable evening. Just because you don’t enjoy it doesn’t make it maishav laitzim

    #872209

    For_real
    Participant

    If you think it’s ok to go to football games, you are obviously not a serious Jew! I bet you don’t wear a Black Hat and you maybe even wear Colored Shirts (!!!). Let me guess, you think it’s ok for women to not sit on the back of the bus too. Shameful!

    #872210

    WIY
    Member

    feivel

    +1

    #872211

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    lesschumras –

    Stop being an am ha’aretz; look inside the Gemara cited above and tell me that a simple reading of it doesn’t include going to a football game (or a baseball game; whatever). I’m not saying you can’t find a heter. I can find you a heter for whatever you’d like; trust me, any capable lamdan can. Do not, however, deride a position which comes from looking at the Gemara in a most intellectually honest and open minded way, without supporting yourself with more than just silly retorts and straw men.

    #872212

    sam4321
    Participant

    lesschumras: I did not post all the mekoros,but just to let you know there are many cont poskim who defined these sport games as the gemara.

    #872213

    WIY
    Member

    For_real

    I just get a kick out of people who get annoyed when Halacha gets in the way of them living life like a goy.

    #872214

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    thank you everyone for your input, however I don’t want this thread to get into an argument like other hot topic threads it seems like the problem is because of moshev leitzim and it wouldn’t be any different than going to an amusement park (this is if the cursing has no effect on you of course)

    thank you again and I request this topic closed before it gets out of hand

    #872215

    feivel
    Participant

    If you dont like Sports, that is fine. I am not asking you to.

    i do like sports, i also enjoy reading novels, watching tv and going to all kinds of movies. as a matter of fact i used to watch about 5 hours of tv a day. i also love going to beaches, and hearing women sing. taivah needs a lot of work to tame. but when one is trying to love his Boreh, one tries.

    However if you are going to BAN it

    i dont propose banning anything. i understand why you would enjoy going to sporting events.

    #872216

    feivel
    Participant

    BTW Ive been to yeshiva Chinese auctions including such as Chofetz Chaim / Bais yaakov where the prizes have been Mets / Yankees / Giants / Rangers or Jets Tickets

    Ive also been on group trip to Sporting events from FRUM organizations (Baseball , Hockey and basketball) there are no group tickets to Giants / Jets

    yes, its a shame. unfortunately living in america, immersed in a pervasive environment of goyish value, can distort the seichel of the best institutions. what a difficult time we are living in.

    #872217

    Think first
    Member

    See Rashi on the pasuk “uvichukosayhen lo seleichu” I never inquired as to the halacha regarding this but he clearly says the torah is saying “do not go to their stadiums” it would seem that all sports stadiums are included in this issur.

    #872218

    Sam2
    Participant

    People quoting the Issur of going to Roman stadiums have to realize the difference between the events that took place there and between sporting events. I’m not saying it makes a difference Halachah Lema’aseh, but at the very least it’s a distinction that must be noted.

    #872219

    Loyal Jew
    Member

    In EY the issues are clearer. Here it’s assur to go into a sports place to play or to watch because of hisyavnus, nosen yad lechillul Shabbos, medarchei haEmorim, moshav leitzim, bitul Torah, bitul zman, bechukosayhen, tznius, and maris ayin.

    #872221

    Sam2
    Participant

    Loyal Jew: Darchei Ha’emori? The rest I hear (well, maybe not Mar’is Ayin), but how do you get Darchei Ha’emori?

    #872222

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The arguments against it, can basically be used on almost anything.

    Besides Eating, sleeping and bodily functions Almost anything can be called BITTUL TORAH or BITTUAL ZMAN for example.

    Rav Shach for example did not drive and took the bus since driving requires times away from torah

    #872223

    TheGoq
    Participant

    I think a frum person can have an interest in sports or the arts it makes a person well rounded.

    #872224

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Sam2 – We’re talking about pashut p’shat in the Gemara. Yes, those stadiums were in Rome, but the Gemara is clear that it’s talking about going to watch things a lot more tame than gladiator fights.

    #872225

    twisted
    Participant

    ?????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??????

    #872226

    WIY
    Member

    By following sports it is very likely and probably guaranteed to happen (ask any sports fan) that you will be Oiver on Lo Sechaneim which is an issur deoraysoh to praise non Jews. So saying how great X player is and how amazing and how fast and all that stuff is an issur EVERY SINGLE TIME.

    #872227

    lesschumras
    Participant

    I would very much appreciate if you could briefly relate what the Gemorah says

    #872228

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    There’s an issur of praising non jews?

    Isn’t there a gemara that one tanna praised the government?

    #872229

    longarekel
    Member

    The Goq: It makes him well-rounded enough to roll right into gehenom. Are you suggesting that all the tzaddikim who are not into sports or the arts are not ‘well rounded’? They are well-rounded ovdei hashem instead of well-rounded goyishe yidden.

    #872230

    sam4321
    Participant

    I am posting this link from kollel iyun hadaf which breaks down the suyga nicely(in English) http://dafyomi.co.il/azarah/insites/az-dt-018.htm

    #872231

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    that you will be Oiver on Lo Sechaneim which is an issur deoraysoh to praise non Jews.

    If its a Sin to Praise Raoul Wallenberg, Ill suffer in Gehenom

    #872232

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Ok, I looked it up in the minchas chinuch.

    Its only a problem if they’re oveid avodah zara (shutfus isn’t avodah zara for goyim)

    #872233

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    lesschumras – the link sam4 posted is pretty good

    #872234

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    According to that links, Rav Chaim Pinchas Sheinberg allows attending sporting events and the issur only applied to places of Avodah Zarah

    #872235

    longarekel
    Member

    But it is avoda zara for us. Therefore it is assur for us to praise them. Besides, avoda zara in this context refers to any other religion that denies the foundations of the torah. (This includes christians and muslims). Only a ger toshav is not included in the three prohibitions learned from lo sechaneim: chen(praising them and the like) chinam(giving them presents) chanaya(allowing them to live in Eretz Yisrael). A ger toshav believes in all the principles of the torah-see Rambam Melachim end of eighth perek.

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