July 3, 2011 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #597763
this shabbos i was at a family simcha and there was someone there, not a relative but a guy thats close to the family who is a little…..slow. he has some problems. he was sitting at the table with all the single guys – were talking 20 yrs old and up. the things i heard coming out of some of these guys were shocking! why are people so MEAN to other people who are not exactly like them?!?!?!? dont people realize that these people have feelings too? dont make this guy into your slave and make him do things for you, dont tell him to move out of your way and get lost!!!!!! seriously, it was DISGUSTING to watch!!! i was seriously crying for the guy!!!and were not talking about little kids, these were older guys who shouldve known better!
(there was one guy who stood out, because he was being really, really nice to him. but that is ONE out of about ten…)July 3, 2011 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #782922
hurts just reading about it. would it have been possible to call a couple guys to the side and discuss the situation with them?July 3, 2011 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #782924
TOTALLY agree with amichai 🙁July 3, 2011 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #782925
This is exactly what it says in Pirkei Avos about 3 people sitting together and no divrei Torah between them is as if they ate from”zivchei maysim”, dead karbanos. It is interesting that the more awareness there is about Shmiors Halashon, the Yetzer Horah is there to show he is even stronger, nebach!
If you personally know at least one of these “mean guys”, you should confront him in a nice way.July 3, 2011 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #782926
This hurts me so much to hear about it. I was a counselor in Camp HASC three plus decades ago, and my bunk consisted of a couple of girls with Down Syndrome, and a couple who suffered brain damage at birth and a variety of other birth defects. They were sweet, young women. Every morning we had to get the girls out of bed and go straight to morning exercises for ten minutes, to warm up and get the blood going. Of course many of the girls were less coordinated than one would hope for, but so what? Anyway, one of the other counselors offhandedly made the incredibly rude and hurtful remark within hearing of my girls, “Why do we even bother wasting our time doing this every day? It’s not gonna HELP them! The’re retarded, for G-d’s sake!”
I took this counselor aside, and very quietly told her that if she ever made a remark like that again she would answer to me and she had no business working at HASC with that attitude. I further told her that although these girls were developmentally slower, not a single one of them would EVER think to hurt someone else’s feelings as she did, and that she could learn a lot from them on how to be a mensch.
Needless to say, she shut up, broigez, and we were not particularly friendly for the balance of the summer, but she never made such a remark again, at least not in my hearing range.
What really brought this experience home to me was when my camper with Downs was crying in the bunk and when I asked her why, she said, “Why did So and So say something so mean to us? She hurt my feelings. I AM NOT retarded. And I like to do jumping jacks!”
I am especially sensitive when I see this type of mean-spiritedness as you described, and it really saddens me when I see young people treat another young person who is slightly different, in that way. My son who works with special needs children, would teach them the score, all right.July 3, 2011 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #782927
If you personally know at least one of these “mean guys”, you should confront him in a nice way. ‘
Or send them to my son. He will set them straight.July 3, 2011 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #782928
“…If you personally know at least one of these “mean guys”, you should confront him in a nice way…”
im still killing myself that i didnt say something to them. although i dont really know if it wouldve helped. they are all older than me and they probably would not have taken it from me…
“…I took this counselor aside, and very quietly told her that if she ever made a remark like that again she would answer to me and she had no business working at HASC with that attitude…”
she deffinatly should NOT have been there with that attitude!
most of these ‘special’ people have hearts of GOLD and are so sincere in everything they say and do! they love everybody unconditonally and they never see peoples faults or weaknesses. all they want is to be loved back the same way! its really not so much to ask!!!!July 3, 2011 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #782929
I agree oomis. I had when people use the word retarded in their everyday convo. “She is acting retarded…” or “she is mental”. It bothers me cuz unfortunately there are people who really are and it’s just not a nice phrase to use in our everyday language. It’s a pet peeve of mine actually.July 3, 2011 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #782930
I agree with you 100%, but just bear in mind that a man’s standards of whats insulting is different than a woman’s.
It may be that they kid around like that all the time (even though its wrong) and it doesnt hurt their big guy egosJuly 3, 2011 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #782931
The Chazon Ish would stand up for people like this -he said they have holy Neshamos.
So the only reason for s/o to make fun of them is because they are jealous. If s/o is jealous -is because they know how low their own Neshoma is!
I don’t think the word “Retarted” in itself is derogatory, it depends how it is used. I don’t agree with those (PC gurus) who say not to use it. We lost a word from the English language to the Toeivaniks, we shouldn’t lose more words; just don’t use it in a negative fashion.July 3, 2011 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #782932
Wow!!! This is horrible!!! To think these boys are the age for shidduchim!!! I hope none of them are redt for my daughters!!! Too bad it’s Loshon Hora to say these boys’ names so ppl could know to avoid them (except of course the one boy who was nice to him).
I totally agree with amichai – if you know any of them, you should get someone to speak with them. They need mussar quite badly!!!July 3, 2011 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #782933
I can only tryMember
G-d! I’d so Mod!July 3, 2011 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #782934
“…Wow!!! This is horrible!!! To think these boys are the age for shidduchim!!! I hope none of them are redt for my daughters!!!”
exactly why i named this thread “good middos!” everybody is always wants a guy with amazing middos. could be these guys are awesome guys in every other way, but i would NEVER date ANY of them!!! (not talking about the nice one of course…) the only problem is (which freaks me out,) is that on a date, you would NEVER be able to tell that they would say things like this.July 3, 2011 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #782935
I agree. I don’t think they’re ready to date at all. I think they should wait until 23 or 24.
I just hope the girls are also willing to wait, or it’s going to contribute to the shidduch crisis.July 3, 2011 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #782936
“I just hope the girls are also willing to wait, or it’s going to contribute to the shidduch crisis.”
Or they could go out with really older guys (whom have good Middos) and this would help alleviate the “crisis”!July 3, 2011 10:31 pm at 10:31 pm #782937
ilovetheholyland – “the only problem is (which freaks me out,) is that on a date, you would NEVER be able to tell that they would say things like this.”
You’re absolutely right! It’s scary to think you could be dating some “amazing” guy and really know nothing about him. what shadchan is going to tell you “he’s really wonderful but he does make fun of ppl who are slow”?
anyway – i hope you and all others who are looking will find your true zivug – the one who is amazing and with TRULY good middos!!!July 3, 2011 11:58 pm at 11:58 pm #782938
I can only tryMember
I apologize for my prior post.
It was written when I just saw the topic and didn’t actually read the other posts.
Now that I have, I’m afraid my post may fall within the “me’at laitzonis…” category.
Although people have been too nice to tell me off, it wasn’t appropriate and didn’t belong here.July 4, 2011 1:45 am at 1:45 am #782939
AMEN!!! and to all your kids too!July 4, 2011 2:25 am at 2:25 am #782940
On a date, make sure you speak of people with various disabilities to see if there is compassion and empathy…. admiration or jokery.July 4, 2011 2:57 am at 2:57 am #782941
“On a date, make sure you speak of people with various disabilities to see if there is compassion and empathy…. admiration or jokery.”
not sure if you were being serious or not, but its really a good idea!July 4, 2011 5:30 am at 5:30 am #782942
Hi Its been a while since I contributed I hope everyone is doing great!
Please face reality and realize that many guys are by nature a little unpolished and may not realize that their middos need work. Its not that these guys are intrinsically bad, they just don’t get it. Maybe nobody ever taught them about these things. Unfortunately they don’t focus on middos and chessed in most yeshivos unlike like they do in Bais Yaakovs and guys can end up being really insensitive by the time they hit shidduchim age.
You may not want to hear this but one of the reasons of marriage is to make a mentch out of the guy. Marriage is meant to teach guys to be kind, loving, generous…
Yes there are guys who Baruch Hashem have worked on their middos before marriage, but still guys are guys that’s how we are, we need to learn how to be more sensitive and the only way we learn that is by being married to a nice sensitive girl who can help us bring out the best in ourselves and reach our true potential.
On the other hand, don’t be so fast to judge these guys, maybe they had a little too much too drink which may have affected their conduct. Please be dan them lkaf zchus.
Additionally, we shouldn’t be so tough on others because we aren’t perfect either and while they may have a problem in one area, you may have a glaring problem in another and you wouldn’t want some guy writing a thread on a forum about a chisaron he saw in you.July 4, 2011 11:56 am at 11:56 am #782943
WB WIY. Long time no see.July 4, 2011 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #782944
On a date, watch how the date treats service workers like waiters, etc.July 4, 2011 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #782945
First of all, welcome back, WIY.
“You may not want to hear this but one of the reasons of marriage is to make a mentch out of the guy.”
Isn’t that the job of the parents?July 4, 2011 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #782946
“Unfortunately they don’t focus on middos and chessed in most yeshivos”
My question is WHY NOT?July 5, 2011 1:33 am at 1:33 am #782947
“we shouldn’t be so tough on others because we aren’t perfect either and while they may have a problem in one area, you may have a glaring problem in another and you wouldn’t want some guy writing a thread on a forum about a chisaron he saw in you.”
your 100% right. i dont mean to judge the guys. but there are certain things that everybody knows. let me show you how the conversation went.
SLOW GUY: “hey shmerel (no that was not the guys name…) whats up?”
SHMEREL:”everythings good, i didnt see you in so long (sarcastically) now could you please move out of my way?”
SG: “what? i didnt hear what you said”
SHMEREL: “the last five words i said were “MOVE OUT OF MY WAY”
exactly like that. and i dont think they were drunk but even if they were, chazzal say that when a person is drunk his true essence is seen. granted women are more sensetive then men, but there is something called mentchlichkeit and super sensetivity to those more unfortunate then we are. im sorry, but a person who could be so heartless and cruel does not have good middos in my books. yes, i do have my many chisronos but the way i see it this is not just a sensitivity…a somthing nice to do. were talking about treating another human being respectfully. (at the most, treating him like a regular person.) and if a person cannot excell in the middos of ben adam lachaveiro, i wonder how he can excell ben adam lamakom.July 5, 2011 1:37 am at 1:37 am #782948
Time for a rant:
I do not think this story has anything to do with middos.
Do you think that a 20 year old with a proper self esteem would treat a “slow” person like that? I do not.
So these kids didn’t have bad middos, they had bad self esteem, which could only be fed by taunting someone who they could perceive as lower than them.
I don’t think they are bad kids, I just pity them. And pity their parents and rebbeim who messed them up so bad.July 5, 2011 1:50 am at 1:50 am #782949
“these kids didn’t have bad middos, they had bad self esteem”
all ten guys from different families?!?!? maybe! i think it was the type that you had to be there and witness it first hand…July 5, 2011 1:57 am at 1:57 am #782950
Firstly, why does it surprise you if all 10 have low self esteem? I am much more surprised if all 10 have bad middos?
Secondly, do you have a vested interest in this? Let it be low self esteem.July 5, 2011 2:01 am at 2:01 am #782951
i let. believe me, i dont WANT these guys to have bad middos and im sorry if thats the way i came accross. it just made a really deep impression on me… id much rather it be an issue of self esteem.July 5, 2011 2:12 am at 2:12 am #782952
id much rather it be an issue of self esteem.
Why would you much rather it be low self-esteem? Bad middos can be fixed easier than fixing low self-esteem.July 5, 2011 2:19 am at 2:19 am #782953
and anyway, bad middos puts a mark on a person and his neshama. self esteem is an issue that he has to work on and overcome, it doesnt define him as a person.July 5, 2011 2:21 am at 2:21 am #782954
popa- I actually hear what you’re saying. It really makes a ton of sense to me. Maybe that’s because I once (stil do?) have low self esteem.
and chein- I think I also understand why someone might rather it be an issue of self esteem rather than bad middos. If it’s bad middos then it says something about the person, that the person might not be a nice person or just plainly has bad middos but if it’s low self esteem then it means that they’re suffering (not sure if that’s the right word to use) with something that they themselves might not even know about.July 5, 2011 3:00 am at 3:00 am #782955
I actually think low self esteem is a lot worse than an individual bad middah because if a person suffers from low self esteem or rather very low (because we all suffer from low self esteem to some degree except maybe a few Gedolim here and there) it takes over the persons personality and effects all their thoughts, feelings and decisions and middos. Having low self esteem and acting a certain way because of it does not negate the notion that the person has bad middos. Self esteem issues does not give anyone a right to have temper tantrums and treat others like trash. Its not an excuse to do what you want.
However self esteem can be built up by working on ones middos. The process of working on middos and building ones self control leads one to have a greater sense of self respect and self esteem is the result of having a healthy dose of self respect.
Another point about Middos. We are all born with good middos and bad middos. It is our job in life to use our good middos to build up our bad ones and perfect the bad ones through that process. So no there’s no such thing as a person who doesn’t have bad middos. Just some have worse middos than others, and some middos are just very glaring and in your face like arrogance or anger…and some people hide their flaws well but those close to them are well aware of them.July 5, 2011 3:08 am at 3:08 am #782956
I would like to add that even if these 10 boys acted as they did, that doesn’t give anyone the right to paint all guys with the same brush. Maybe its a group of guys who know this guy and maybe he is very difficult to deal with. There’s no way I can accurately judge this story without hearing both sides at the minimum and im certainly sure that you, being a girl were not sitting with the guys and not knowing the histories they have with this boy really have no right to judge them.
Again even if they were 100% wrong this doesn’t mean all guys or even most guys are like this. Correct me if im wrong, but I sense that this “slow guy” may be a relative or close family friend of yours which makes you even more biased if true. So really, its best not to judge others ever because we never know the whole story. Trust me as much as we may know we can never know the whole story.July 5, 2011 3:13 am at 3:13 am #782957
scary! i’m in the parsha, and you never know what these boys are really like. like was mentioned b4, they all act great when dating. i guess this would be where emunah kicks in and there are some things that you have to leave up to Hashem, because as much research as you do, you’ll never find out everything.July 5, 2011 3:25 am at 3:25 am #782958
you are right. i should not have been painting them all with the same brush and i should give them the benefit of the doubt. but as i mentioned before, i saw it first hand and it just shocked me being that i never saw anything like this before. i come from a very large family, mostly boys and i just know that my brothers would never act like that.
also as i did mention in my OP, the guy was not a relative. he was close to the family that was making the simcha. i recall seeing him only ONCE before this shabbos. so there were no personal feelings involved. as a matter of fact, some of the guys that were being mean to the guy are cousins of mine. maybe thats why i was so shocked. being family and all, i would expect more from them…July 5, 2011 3:27 am at 3:27 am #782959
This thread is going from bad to worse. You are judging all guys based on the story of what someone wrote on a thread in a blog which may or may not be true, and even if true, may not have been at all as described, and even if it is as described there can be numerous reasons why it would only apply to these guys.
You know that its HIGHLY unlikely that even a large minority of guys are like this. Boys in shidduchim who are 22 and up are generally mature enough and sensitive enough to know how to treat someone who is slow. Im frightened to think that anyone is actually thinking that this is typical for the way guys in their 20s behave. Get a grip on reality.July 5, 2011 3:42 am at 3:42 am #782960
“Middos are the way we act and how we think and feel…”
I say Middos that need work.July 5, 2011 4:31 am at 4:31 am #782961
Why is it -if s/o goes into a Mcdonalds and you see him eating a burger -99% of Frum Jews who see him won’t be Dan him L’caf Zecus, but here were they did an Averia B’farhesia, e/o says -Oh, you must Dan them L’caf Zecus?July 5, 2011 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #782962
I didnt read all the posts here because I had no time and I just wanted to post but this is something that bothers me terribly. My brother who is 100% normal and on the ball but is wheelchair bound gets this all the time. People think that they can say whatever they want and he won’t understand…. but he is 100% on the ball and he understands everything….July 5, 2011 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #782964
adorable -Unfortunately your brother’s situation is not that uncommon.July 5, 2011 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #782965
meaning? do you mean to say that there are many children in wheelchairs who are mistaken for “retarted” and as if they dont understand anything?July 5, 2011 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #782966
adorable -Part of the post was edited.
Meaning -that there are a lot of people who haven’t the nicest way of talking to others.July 5, 2011 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #782967
oomis! what a memory shock. I was one of the weekend people that made the schlep to Parksville every weekend for the redsidential folks. Also three decades+. Will be married for 31 years and I remember stopping the three year relationship because the management did not take a shine to my new, very quiet wife. I can attest that it left a great imprint on my outlook and character. And in the ensuing 31 years, wife has learned to make some noise.July 5, 2011 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #782968
Well there are plenty of non wheelchair bound people who get treated like garbage on a regular basis. The obligation of treating people properly has nothing to do with whether they are physically handicapped or not. If you have good Middos you treat all people properly, if you dont, then you only treat those who you consider “on your level” or “worthy of your respect” properly and everyone else can go jump in a lake.
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