Gross error

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  • #598481

    yenta.morph
    Member

    Akkadian is the earliest known predecessor of ????

    In the Ophel Archaeological Garden, an area adjacent to Har Habayis and near the Kosel, archaeologists have recently made some amazing discoveries. Last year, they found the oldest piece of writing ever discovered in Yerushalayim: a small piece of clay tablet inscribed in Akkadian. (Akkadian is the earliest known predecessor of Hebrew and was spoken in the ancient Middle East region)

    `Uncovering the past YOUR world by M. Miller , Binyan Aug 3 A, 3 Av Page 10.’

    ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????, ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??”? ? ?”? ??? ?????? ???

    ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? – ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????. ??? ????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????, ????? ?????? ???????, ??? ?”?

    ???? ?????? ???? ?? ?”? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????, ???? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?????

    ??? ??? – ???? ?????: ???, ?????? ??? ?? ? ???? ??? ??? – ???? ???. ?????? ???, ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ?????. ??? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ?

    ?? ????? ?????? – ?? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ??????, ????? ???? ???? ????? ????, ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ???, ??? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????: ???, ?????? ??? ?? ?”? .

    ????? ????? ???? ??????: “?? ????? ??????? ???? ??? ??,,, ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???????, ??????? ??????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ????, ??? ???? ?????: ‘??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???’

    #800490

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    I don’t see what your problem is. You found a piece of secular scholarship that is not like Rashi but is like RaMBaN and Ibn Ezra. Either you can say that metzius is a rayah to Ibn Ezra, or you can say rashi is a raya against the secular scholarship. Both mehalchim have ample precedent. Either way, you have a nice dvar Torah and there is no reason to get upset.

    #800491

    yenta.morph
    Member

    Akkadian is the earliest known predecessor of ????

    In the Ophel Archaeological Garden, an area adjacent to Har Habayis and near the Kosel, archaeologists have recently made some amazing discoveries. Last year, they found the oldest piece of writing ever discovered in Yerushalayim: a small piece of clay tablet inscribed in Akkadian. (Akkadian is the earliest known predecessor of Hebrew and was spoken in the ancient Middle East region)

    Uncovering the past YOUR world by M. Miller , Binyan Aug 3 A, 3 Av Page 10.

    ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????, ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??”? ? ?”? ??? ?????? ???

    ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? – ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????. ??? ????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????, ????? ?????? ???????, ??? ?”?

    ???? ?????? ???? ?? ?”? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????, ???? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?????

    ??? ??? – ???? ?????: ???, ?????? ??? ?? ?

    ???? ??? ??? – ???? ???. ?????? ???,

      ???? ???? ????

    ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ?????. ??? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ?

    ?? ????? ?????? – ?? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ??????, ????? ???? ???? ????? ????, ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ???, ??? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????: ???, ?????? ??? ?? ?”? .

    ????? ????? ???? ??????: “?? ????? ??????? ???? ??? ??,,, ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???????, ??????? ??????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ????, ??? ???? ?????: ‘??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???

    #800492

    yenta.morph
    Member

    ???????? like RaMBaN and Ibn Ezra ??????????

    HUH ???? Look again!!!! Don’t look like that in what I cited!!!

    METZIUS ??? an arhcheologist’s theory

    Might not have been the most popular vernacular but it sure existed

    #800493

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Not every rishon holds that Hebrew was the first language. The two that I cited hold that it was simply the language spoken in C’na’an at the time that Avraham Avinu got there. If we go like those shitos, there is no reason that Akkadian could not have been an ancestor to Lashon Hakodesh.

    #800494

    WIY
    Member

    ItcheSrulik

    Im pretty sure that the language Adam Harishon and his children spoke was Loshon Hakodesh.

    #800495

    twisted
    Participant

    WIY:

    that would align with Rashi, but for others, it would be unlikely to impossibe, as if it is of Cannaite origin, it must be post Mabul.

    Reactionary: do you hold there is an issur, or a inappropriateness to speaking “that language” ?

    Itche: do you have the mare mokom in the Rambam?

    #800496

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Not Rambam, Ramban — ben Nachman. Apparently people get them mixed up in print too. 🙂 It’s shlishi in miketz (45:12 l’misparam).

    Reactionary: No, a linguist’s theory, and anyway, do you have a point?

    #800497

    yenta.morph
    Member

    I looked through all of Parsha Miketz and could not find a Ramabn discussing Lashon Hakodesh.

    here be my guest http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/olam_hatanah/mefaresh.asp?book=1&perek=44&mefaresh=ramban

    You found a manuscript in some archaeological dig?

    #800498

    yenta.morph
    Member

    Nu!! ItcheSrulik

    Resident College “Shaigetz Why did the mod give you that label?

    always ????? ??????? ? So where is that Ramaban?

    #800502

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    A- I asked for the title.

    B- My mistake, it’s parshas vayigash, though you would have found it if you looked at the chapter and verse I quoted.

    C- I’m still waiting for you to make a point.

    #800503

    yenta.morph
    Member

    My error I should have looked in http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/olam_hatanah/mefaresh.asp?book=1&perek=45&mefaresh=ramban

    (??): ?? ?? ????? ????? –

    ????? ???? (??? ???? ??),

    ??? ??????? (??”?, ????”?, ????”?), ???? ????? ???????.

    ????? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ??????, ?? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ????, ?? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????, ?? ????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ????? ???, ???? ??? ??, ?????? ???? ???? ??? ???, ??? ??? ???? ????:

    ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ???, ??? ?? ?????, ???? ?????? ???????? ???? ???????, ???? ????? ????????? ???? ????? ???? (????? ? ?): ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ?????, ????? ???? ?? ??????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ???? ???????, ????? ????? ????. ??? ??? ?? ??????, ?????? ?????? ???? ?????, ?? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ??????? ?????? ??????, ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ????.

    ????, ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????. ????? ??? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ????? ??????, ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??????:

    ?????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ??????, ?? ?? ????? ???? ?? ?? ????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ???, ?? ?????? ???, ??? ?? ?? ?????? ???????? ????. ???? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?????. ?????? ????? ????? (?? ?): ????, ??? ?? ???:

    But I still dont see anything close to what you are “quoting”

    My point : I wanted to put public pressure on Hamodia to be more careful in what they publish. The excerpt I quoted is not in line with their “purported” ???? .

    With this said I and my alter ego “wellmeaning busybody” are parting company with Itchesrulik & co. @ YESHIVAWORLD COFFEEROOM

    #800504

    yenta.morph
    Member

    in referring to “that” language I meant _?___ the new Black language

    #800505

    yichusdik
    Participant

    People – Akkadian was a language spoken and written in the land (called for a time Akkad) between the Tigris and Euphrates, near where Avrohom Avinu came from originally.

    The Torah (and archaeology for that matter) shows us that there were settled cities, culture, and kingdoms quite early on – when there were pretty much only nomadic tribes and a few walled towns in E’Y. Here’s a radical thought – Loshon Hakodesh was literally that – the language that holy men, like Avrohom Avinu, spoke. And he spoke the language of the people where he lived. As the family of Avrohom grew, so did the language it transplanted into the land of the K’nanim, with the geographic shifts (for example, words relating to seas and coasts, which Akkad didn’t have, being land-bound) and other words describing new phenomenon (much like the gemara uses words like traklin, pruzbul, achsanya, that didn’t come from Lashon Hakodesh or from Aramaic).

    The written language we know as loshon hakodesh continues to evolve, all you need to do is look at the inscriptions on the rimon found in Yerushalayim from the Bayis rishon, then look at the dead sea scrolls (even within those, there is a range of slight differences over the 200 year period within which they were written – you can see a frum point of view on this from Professor Lawrence Shiffman) and then look at the cairo gnizah materials and then look at our modern writing – slow but clear changes in the writing, evolving, as all languages do. It doesn’t take anything away from the kedusha of what is written or spoken.

    #800506

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    yichusdik: None of that is kefira, but some people react badly to being shown new ideas. I’ve already wasted too much time with this poster. Please learn from my mistake :). Though ANE languages are an interesting field, especially to a student of tanach; maybe you want to start a thread about it?

    #800507

    me too
    Member

    What a cop out!!

    He could not waste a minute to click & paste from the text of the Ramban (he didnt have to look for a Ramban and transcribe) to prove his point.

    #800508

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Itchesrulik, Even among the Ancient Near East etymologists there is a big question mark whether the language that we might consider loshson hakodesh as well as the precursor language to ancient hebrew, phoenician, minoan and eventually greek transited west to east or east to west.

    I think the evidence of Torah dictates east to west. That being said, the geography and demography of the Mediterranean basin made the spread of these related languages quicker and broader once seafarers began to use it across a larger area, so it might look like it spread from Crete, Greece, etc.

    Also, the OP doesn’t know or realize that during the time when Yosef was in Mitzrayim (as he quotes the Ramban, I think about Yosef) Lower Egypt (the northern part) was being invaded and ruled by the Hyksos, a nation that came from the area of modern day Syria. They spoke a language that was related to early Hebrew and Phoenician.

    As I said, the kedusha of a language depends on who is speaking or writing and what is being said. Think about this. Amalek, yemach shemom, lived not far from E’Y, were related by ancestry to us, and were also nomadic. Do you think they spoke a language related to Chinese? Finnish? Or was it something like all the other Edomite tribes spoke – which sounded a lot like what our ancestors spoke?

    #800509

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I dont like yentas.

    #800510

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “(Akkadian is the earliest known predecessor of Hebrew and was spoken in the ancient Middle East region)”

    Why is this at odds with the Rashi that says until the dor haflaga everyone spoke lashon kodesh?

    Did everyone live in what they define as “ancient middle east region” prior to dor haflaga? What area is covered by what they refer to as “ancient middle east”?

    #800511

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    yichusdik:

    a- Can you rewrite your first paragraph? I think you transposed a couple words and I don’t understand it.

    b- I agree that the Torah seems to indicate it spread from east to west. Secular scholarship is beginning to lean in that direction too (always fun when they catch up with us, isn’t it 😉 ) based on a deconstruction of the Greek alphabet down to its roots in Phonecian which was passed to Crete by Minoan traders.

    c- We both quoted the same Ramban. Since they came out of Syria, they probably spoke Phonecian which was –as far as linguists can make out — almost identical to Hebrew.

    d- As for Amalek, they lived about as close to Israel as Moav was, so their language would probably be about as related to Hebrew as Moabite. As a frame of reference, Moabite is close enough to lashon hakodesh that I could visit a museum exhibit housing a replica of a moabite inscription and read it aloud to the tour guide with translation.

    #800513

    Update

    Hamodia posted a correction on page 7 of this week’s Binyan to which I responded

    to binyan@hamodia.com

    date Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 8:48 PM

    ??? Subject Re: Akkadian ….. Predecessor of Aramaic

    re Correction on page 7

    ??? ?????? = Akkadian ?

    ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?”? ???”? ???? ?????? ???? ? ??’ ??-??: “???? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????, ??????? ??? ???? ?????, ????? ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ??????? ???? ???… ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ??????, ?????? ??????? ???????, ???????? ???????????? ??????????”; ?????? ??? ??? ?? ???”? (??’ ??, ??): “?????? ???, ?? ??? -?????, ????? ????? ?? ????? ??????; ?? ???? ???????, ?? ??????, ?????? ??? ???”. ???’ ????”? ??????? ????? ?????? ?, ? ???????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? “??????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?????”. ???? ???? ?????? ??? ? ???? ?: “?? ????? ???? ????? ???, ??? ??? ?? ??? ?????

    yenta.morph aka well meaning busybody, the reactionary is enjoying himself immensely in an all Yiddish male only forum

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