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Putin, his regime and many members of the Russian Army are guilty of war crimes in Ukraine on a scale not seen in decades.
In 2022, the crimes are immediately videoed, documented and are published for the world to see.
This never was about invading Ukraine but a complete genocide of the people living in Ukraine.
Putin’s plan was that if the original invasion was successful, and Zelensky and his government fell, he would have summarily executed millions of Ukranians.Good luck trying to get Russia to extradite Putin to the ICC.
“This never was about invading Ukraine but a complete genocide of the people living in Ukraine.“
How do you know that?
This is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. How do you know? The key is to stop viewing it as an American and start looking at it as a Russian. Russia views Ukraine as a dagger pushing deep into aRussia. Russia has been invaded before and wants to make sure it doesn’t happen again. What saved Russia from Napoleon and Hitler? Having the strategic depth making them expend a lot of energy and men just to reach the border of “Real Russia” Putin has 3 options. 1. Take all of Ukraine. 2. Take the regions bordering Russia for at least some strategic depth. 3. Work out a deal like Russia had with Finland. In 1939 they went to war. It cost Russia around a million men. The final deal was Finland can stay a free country as long as Finland goes along with Russia. If you look at history that’s what Finland did. They never thought of joining NATO, turned back from buying weaponry if Russia said no, and didn’t speak badly about Russia. If Putin can convince Ukraine to act like Finland did, that would be a win for him. But what would Putin gain by taking Ukraine and killing millions of people? Absolutely nothing except negatives.
And who said this wasn’t staged by Ukraine for more sympathy? I have zero sympathy and zero trust for either side. It’s a little suspicious when the media and Democrats are in lockstep about an issue. When only one side is presented, it makes one suspicious. They are usually wrong. My ancestors are buried in mass graves in Ukraine. Russians aren’t much better. They could destroy each other for all I care. Just get the Jews out.
“And who said this wasn’t staged by Ukraine for more sympathy”
Just about every intelligence report and nightly media coverage from the U.S. and every European country have been reporting this ongoing genocide against civilians in real time over the past few weeks. If you believe this was “staged”, join the holocaust denial club, the 9/11 denial club, the Newton school shooting denial club or the conspiracy theory of your choice.
We have a strong inclination to believe whoever is saying that the mainstream is wrong. We do this with medicine, in a mad dash towards anything with the term “alternative” attached to it. We do it with news, listening only to the minority goyim who go against the majority goyim.
Before we carry on with our theories from the comfort of our living rooms, we should think – what if a Ukrainian yid were to see what we’re saying? Wouldn’t that hurt his feelings? Perhaps there are some who access YWN…
Jackk, Putin views the Ukrainians as a brotherly nation. Your accusations have no basis in reality. Learn more about the background of the conflict.
Gadolhadorah, you are so wrong!! The Ukrainian government have been lying like crazy from the very beginning of the war. Zelensky accused Russia of committing genocide!(Do you know what genocide is?) When Russian shells or a missile land someplace in Ukraine, they start yelling “war crimes, crimes against humanity”. The Ukrainians clearly can not be trusted. They totally could have staged the whole Bucha incident.Jackk, who said they just intentionally targeted civilians — there is no proof of that yet!
Gemora says that if someone has $1 mln dollars, he wants another $1 mln – here is a country with the biggest territory in the world and it needs more buffer space.
As to atrocities, this is already clear for several weeks, now we just get evidence for court proceedings. Politicians who are saying “now, it is different” are not honest – they could have deduced it from the satellite images of destroyed buildings weeks ago. The images are done by commercial companies that anyone can acquire.
Avira, what about Russian Yidden?
Always_Ask…, destroyed buildings (or even dead bodies) prove nothing. You need to have a proof that someone intentionally targeted purely civilian targets or used disproportional force — like dropping a huge bomb on a single enemy soldier hiding near an apartment building. The US and Israeli armies also destroy buildings too, you know.
I am surprised at the substantial number of comments in support of Russia. Some of these commenters clearly do not have even the frailest grip on reality.
Politics is about twisting logic and facts to fit a pre-set narrative.
The simple reality is, that people are being hurt and killed. These are civilians that just want to live, take care of their families and their selves, and contribute to society. These people have not instigated this war nor are they playing an active role in this war.
To justify an invasion, kill civilians, and flatten residential buildings, schools, and hospitals is an extreme level of evil and has no justification in a civilized society.
Russia started this, they need to eat the consequences that come along with their actions.
Putin may believe that killing so many people, including young Russian soldiers is justified as long as his objectives are met. The world does not have to subscribe to that belief.
Jackk,
Of course the key during WWII was to stop viewing it as a Jew and view it as a German. Because thinking like doesn’t mean you agree. During the 1930’s hundreds of thousands of German Jews came to America. During the war they were invaluable to the US Intelligence Services. Growing up in Germany (most not Frum) they attended German schools and Universities, knew German slang, read German newspapers and watched German movies. In other words they knew how to “Think like” a German. They provided a ton of Intel to the Allies.
Look up Fred Meyer a German Jew who came to America in 1938. During WWII he parachuted into Nazi Germany were he posed as a Nazi Officer. He lived in a rest home for German officers where at night at the bar he would listen and take mental notes. Later he would write the Intel down and pass it to another German Jew living in the loft of a barn with a radio where he would forward the Intel to HQ. He found out where Hitler’s bunker was, posing as a Nazi officer got the trainmaster to tell him about a large shipment of weapons which the Allies bombed (saving thousands of lives). And convinced the head Nazi in Tyrol to surrender (again saving thousands of lives and shortening the war saving Jews ascwell). How was this great Jewish and American hero able to pull of the impossible? Because he knew how to “Think” like a Nazi.
That’s the scary part about America today. Putin has always been playing chess while Biden is just getting ready to play a game of tic-tac-toe!2cents, did you support the US invasions of Iraq and Afganistan, the Israeli invasion of Gaza and bombings of Lebanon? Plenty of civilians were killed there etc.
Hiju, please be more specific.mdd1,
“2cents, did you support the US invasions of Iraq and Afganistan, the Israeli invasion of Gaza and bombings of Lebanon? Plenty of civilians were killed there etc.”
I disagree that the US and Israeli campaigns are at all comparable to Russia’s invasion and war against Ukraine. The US campaign against Afghanistan was a direct response to the 9/11 terror attack, and Israel’s war against Hezbollah in Lebanon was in response to a violent cross-border attack that killed and captured Israeli soldiers, and cross-border shelling. The US war against Iraq had much less justification, though Iraq was failing to cooperate with nuclear inspections. In all three of those campaigns, however, precision munitions were primarily utilized by the US and Israel. These weapons are much more expensive than conventional artillery and are designed to hit the intended target accurately while minimizing collateral damage. The US and Israeli armed forces were also working to limit their attacks to military targets, and took responsibility and corrective actions after mistakes. Israel would even “knock” on buildings it was about to hit, giving advance warning to those inside to get out beforehand. Israeli and US soldiers are well trained, well organized, and have a robust disciplinary system in place where soldiers are accountable for their behavior.
In contrast, Russia has relied primarily on less accurate conventional artillery in urban areas, has applied scorched earth tactics rather than precision strikes against legitimate military targets, has appeared to deliberately target civilian residences, hospitals, and shelters, and has poorly trained and poorly disciplined soldiers that have rampaged against defenseless civilians to vent their wrath over staggeringly high numbers of casualties due to their poor training, discipline, and the tactical decisions of their “superior” officers.
jackk,
“Putin, his regime and many members of the Russian Army are guilty of war crimes in Ukraine on a scale not seen in decades.”
This is a fairly Western ethnocentric viewpoint. The war crimes in Ukraine are heinous, but are small in comparison to the Rwandan genocide and the subsequent Second Congo War (a continent-sized conflict involving at least 9 countries), which brutally killed millions. The Syrian civil war was also far more deadly and rife with war crimes, as was the Janjaweed’s campaign of horror in Darfur. Don’t forget that there are seven continents on this planet, and Africa and Asia are far bigger than Europe.
“This never was about invading Ukraine but a complete genocide of the people living in Ukraine.”
Russia is certainly committing war crimes and atrocities against civilians, including mass killings, but a genocide is different. When you make wildly unfounded statements, you provide an opening for Russian propaganda, as can be seen in this thread already.
Avraham in MD, the Russian army behavior is not up to the Israeli standards, but there was no solid proof of war crimes yet. If enemy combatants take up positions in or near a hospital, you are allowed to fire at them. You have to learn the laws of warfare to know what constitutes a war crime.
Avraham in MD, Russia also has a number of reasons/justifications for their invasion. You and others here were to quick to swallow the Western/Ukrainian propaganda.
mdd > like dropping a huge bomb on a single enemy soldier hiding near an apartment building.
I think there are some facts that are impossible to not to believe even if weigh heavily possible Ukrainian propaganda, such as:
There was a theatre in the center of Mariupol with several thousand people in the basement with the word “children” visible on two sides of the building in the satellite imagery.
There are international humanitarian convoys that are trying to bring food and take people out of the same city for several weeks and are stopped by the Russian army checkpoints.
Always_Ask…, the theater in Mariupol — how do you know there were no Ukrainian combatants nearby? Why in the world would the Russians bomb a purely civilian place in very heavily pro-Russian Mariupol?! We are not talking about Lviv (Lvov) where I would understand why they would have a yetzer hora to do so.
The Russians stopping the convoys trying to take people out? And you know that how? Because Zelensky and his cronies told you so?Ujm, if a Jew’s host country is accused of misdeeds, will it be devastating to him? If someone told me that america is engaging in genocide, it won’t hurt my feelings. Russian jews (at least authentic jews) are not going to be offended if for some reason Russia is “right” and we condemn it.
Effectively telling Ukrainian yidden that they aren’t really suffering is, on the other hand, extremely offensive. Imagine someone suffering and being told “no, no…youre not really suffering; I don’t believe you, this is all a conspiracy”. Take out russia, insert Germany, and you have Holocaust denial.
Avira, your point is valid. But, unless I missed it, I didn’t see anyone saying Ukrainian citizens aren’t suffering.
mdd1,
“If enemy combatants take up positions in or near a hospital, you are allowed to fire at them. You have to learn the laws of warfare to know what constitutes a war crime.”
It’s weird that you’re lecturing me about a need to learn the laws of warfare – what exactly are your bonafides, and what do you know of mine? It seems to me that you are making things up as you go along your quest to defend Russia.
From Article 8 (War Crimes) of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, we see the following defined as war crimes:
Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated.
Attacking or bombarding, by whatever means, towns, villages, dwellings or buildings which are undefended and which are not military objectives.
So no, you can’t just blast away at a hospital or civilian shelter or obliterate towns because enemy soliders may be operating nearby. And the hospital attack is hardly the only evidence of war crimes. The heightened accusations of war crimes leading to this thread have come up after finding executed civilians in the Kyiv suburbs vacated by Russian forces. There have also been reports of Ukrainian civilians poisoning Russian soldiers – this would also be considered a war crime.
“Russia also has a number of reasons/justifications for their invasion.”
This is absurd. Since when do “justifications” permit crimes?
“You and others here were to quick to swallow the Western/Ukrainian propaganda.”
Well, jackk thinks I’m a Putin apologist, and you think I swallow Ukrainian propaganda. I must be on the right track!
Avram, Russia is not party to the Rome Statute of the ICC and its rules are not international law binding upon non-signatories.
ujm,
“Russia is not party to the Rome Statute of the ICC and its rules are not international law binding upon non-signatories.”
Russian individuals can still be accused of war crimes and arrest warrants issued, even if Russia refuses extradition or recognition of the court. A special tribunal can also be initiated specific to the conflict in Ukraine. But at the end of the day your point is irrelevant – not recognizing an international court does not redefine what a war crime is.
Avram, your last comment is legally incorrect. The ICC is an international agreement only binding upon its signatories. Its rules, statues and agreements are not international law or binding upon any non-signatories. That’s a legal fact that isn’t under dispute.
The ICC has no jurisdiction to indict or request extradition of any parties or state nationals, that committed any gruesome acts outside any jurisdiction not party to the ICC.
mdd1,
It so seems that you have sided with the Russians on this matter and are have strong opinions about Ukraine.
While I don’t think that any of what was written here will change your mind, it seems odd that all the information coming out clearly point to Russian atrocities, they have no regard for civilian human life.
If this were not the fact, Russian PR would be at full speed providing acceptable information to refute this. In fact, all they have is some made-up stories that hold no water.
How is it that day after day, there is another atrocious story about a hospital, school, or civilians being killed by the Russians, and they are all consistent with photos and videos? If even just some of this were made up, there would have been many inconsistencies.
It’s clear that Russia is willing to reach its objectives by all means, with no regard for its consequences. That is not Ok.
Avraham in MD, READ what you quoted — it implies exactly what i wrote. One is not prohibited from bombing a hospital or a school if there are enemy combatants there unless excessive force is used,
Once the bodies are exhumed the extent of the Russian war crimes will become apparent. What is even more shocking than the bombing of non military targets is the Russians making no effort to retrieve the corpses of their fallen soldiers, Putin will long be remembered for his evil.
ujm,
“The ICC has no jurisdiction to indict or request extradition of any parties or state nationals, that committed any gruesome acts outside any jurisdiction not party to the ICC.”
Your statement is factually incomplete. The ICC nominally has jurisdiction only in respect to its signatory nations, but a nation that is not part of the court can still grant the ICC jurisdiction to investigate and prosecute potential war crimes committed within its own territory. Ukraine has done so, and the ICC has already opened an investigation. And yes they can in fact indict Russian citizens. Now, Russia and the US maintain that even if indicted the ICC has no jurisdiction over their own citizens, unless it is authorized by the UN Security Council, where of course both the US and Russia hold veto power. So it’s unlikely that any indictments from the ICC will have much effect on Russian civilians, but that’s quite different than what you are saying.
And again, all of this is an irrelevant smokescreen, because whether or not the ICC can successfully prosecute someone for a war crime does not affect the definition of a war crime.
mdd1,
“it implies exactly what i wrote. One is not prohibited from bombing a hospital or a school if there are enemy combatants there unless excessive force is used,”
You’re weaving quite the web of fantasy in order to defend your position. First you posit that Ukrainian soldiers were present near the hospital. That may be so, but there’s no evidence of it. Then you posit that whatever imagined Ukrainian solders that were there had a significance to the Russian war effort that justified shelling a maternity hospital. So maybe Ukrainian soldiers found a nuclear warhead lying around and were preparing to lob it at Moscow from the roof of the hospital, and Russia only had a few artillery pieces within range to prevent the attack. This is quite the leap of faith.
Given that Russia has a supply of precision guided weapons in its arsenal that can be used against the Ukrainian military in urban combat, I think the case that firing artillery shells into heavily populated areas near (or at) highly sensitive civilian locations constitutes a war crime is fairly strong. But the hospital and theater shelling are not even what has generated the recent accusations of war crimes. It’s the evidence of mass killings of civilians in the Kyiv suburbs. What’s your spin on that?
Avraham in MD, what we know is that the hospital and the theater were bombed, the Ukrainian authorities conveniently did provide information about the presence of their military men there — whether they were there or not — thus omitting important details to possibly create propaganda.
If you were following the news more closely, you would know that Russia by now faces a shortage of precision-guided munitions. Also these munitions help only so much to limit the damage — they are not lasers.
As far as Bucha goes, let me be clear: the Russians are certainly capable of committing war crimes, but in this case I have my strong doubts about the whole story. Firstly, read my previous post as to why the Ukrainians can not be trusted. The Western governments were also playing a similar game. When — some time ago — Russia attacked a Ukrainian army base next to Lviv, Blinken’s response was: “Stop the brutality!”. Which brutality — a completely military target had been struck! As soon as Putin declared war, UK prime minister declared it “a horrific invasion”. What was horrific about it at the time? Also the huge amount of alleged victims — 300 to 400 — only in one village. And they claim in other places it is even more! This sounds very fishy.People were found with their hands tied behind their backs shot in the head. What could possibly be the justification for these murders?
The bodies could have been planted. Also some rogue Russian soldiers may have committed crimes, but not the execution of a lots of people, and also not as a policy of the Russian army. Look at the news — there are alleged Ukrainian atrocities against Russian POWs dating back to March 30 and so on.
mdd1,
“The bodies could have been planted.”
You should apologize to kollelman.
“Also some rogue Russian soldiers may have committed crimes”
Of course, nobody is disputing that.
“but not the execution of a lots of people”
How do you know? Did you go to Ukraine and conduct surveillance?
“and also not as a policy of the Russian army.”
It doesn’t have to be an official military or government policy to be a war crime. Most likely the specific atrocities we’re reading about in the news now are largely a result of poor training, poor discipline, poor logistics forcing Russian soldiers to forage for food among a hostile populace, poor morale, and rage over the high number of casualties they’re taking.
“Look at the news — there are alleged Ukrainian atrocities against Russian POWs dating back to March 30 and so on. “
Yes, there are Ukrainians committing likely war crimes as well, including poisoning Russian soldiers, and abusing or executing POWs. Maybe Russia can appeal to the ICC.
And if it is not the official or encouraged policy of the Russian army, you cant blame Putin personally or Russiaas a country. Individual law-breakers need to be prosecuted.
Apologize for what? To which kollelman? As far as the number of the dead goes, the burden of proof is on the prosecution — especially when it comes to the unusual and explosive claim of murdering 300-400 civilians in one village.
And how many civilians did the us kill in Iraq Libya and Afghanistan? How about Korea? Vietnam? Bay of Pigs?
Whoops, my bad, I forgot. if american bombs and wars kill you then it was not only justified but for your own benefit!!
Only Russian bombs and wars are evil.
America has a right to protect it’s national interests even if that means regime change and invasion of sovereign states but Russia does not.
Biden just told us that Putin has to go because america doesn’t like him. The arrogance is disgusting.
In any case these massacre claims are as believable as the ghost of Kiev and the snake island hoax all naive fools believed bc whatever the nightly news says is just one step down from Moshe m’pi hagvura.
Pi Ha’Gevurah should spelled with capital letters.
mdd > The Russians stopping the convoys trying to take people out? And you know that how?
From international organizations trying daily to bring supplies to the cities and being stopped or attacked. From satellite images showing buses staged for days at the nearby cities. From seeing videos and interviews with people who left in cars, but no buses. From Ukrainians citizens who were taken to Russian territory who managed to leave Russia after that.
All these questions will be sorted out by the courts in several years. Ma nafka mina now? Significance seems to be that international community becomes outraged by the atrocities and increases sanctions and military assistance. While this is important in practice, I don’t think we here should care. Do we think that attacking another country the way Russia did is OK? killing thousand of people OK whether there is ICC jurisdiction or not?
Always…, I really do not like going in circles. Russia has a number of reasons why they went into Ukraine. Did you care to find out what those are?
The killed people? You have to prove that they were intentionally murdered. Even if you have a proof for 4 cases, it does not extend to the thousands others.
How do you know that the buses can not go in because of the Russians, the Ukrainian nationalists and neo-Nazis (“Azov” battalion) may prevent them from going in to create an atrocities narrative. Random Ukrainians appearing in the media may be Ukrainian security services agents.Someone wrote on top that we know these massacres are true because the intelligence agencies and the mainstream media have have saying so for weeks.
This demonstrates a level of shallowness that is extremely dangerous.
If you read Russian propaganda you would believe it automatically bc it is their mainstream media? How about Chinese?
What has american media and intelligence done to earn your trust?
Russiagate? Hunter’s laptop? The lies about about the anti sexualizing children and turning them against their families bill in Florida? The lies about abortion being pro choice when in reality it is about justifying murder? The lies that if you feel like a member of the opposite sex then poof! you are?
Orwell’s 2+2=5 is not far off in America. And it’s all because of unquestioning nabobs who think that bc they subscribe to popular opinion they are moral and smart. אברהם העברי seems to be dead amongst many of his children.
The media says that evolution is a fact that can’t be denied. Should we believe that as well? Torah min haShomayim – only unsophisticated fools believe that!
So be careful who you accept as your source of truth.
If you really believe that whatever is on the news is anything other than propoganda you are quite hopeless.
Americans tend to make fun of other cultures who believe whatever they are told by their government, but americans and by the conversations on this board many frum Jews have let themselves be brainwashed no different than the Chinese automotons.
If only you would use your כח האמונה for belief in חזל and the Torah with a fraction that you use it for belief in your true חכמים- the נביאי השקר of modernity.
כל האדם כוזב, that includes propogandists posing as intelligence agencies ( which btw, a main function if not THE main function of intelligence agencies foremost amongst them the c.i.a. is the spreading of disinformation, which until recently mainly did this against enemies of the us but since Obama has been using this against political opposition to the ruling classes excesses starting with the IRS persecution of pro tea party nonprofits)
mdd1 and BY1212 are both absolutely correct. Anyone who eats lock stock and barrel, accepting and believing everything the Western “Big Media” feeds them on their broadcasts and broadsheets, the so-called mainstream media that is part and parcel of the Far Left, or even believes everything the media spokesmen of the government and the leaders of the Western regimes say, is simply an unfortunate fool.
mdd > How do you know that the buses can not go in because of the Russians,
1) because reps from international humanitarian organizations say so.
2) Buses stand in UKR-controlled area and are trying to go into RUS-controlled. UKRs who are surrounded inside the city are further down, they do not have access to the highway with RUS checkpoints.Again, this is all for the courts. I am not sure why people are focused on atrocities. Start of the war was a despicable act by itself and should have been firmly opposed. Whatever RUS reasons were, no other country resolved to violence in Europe after WW2, outside of Balkan skirmishes, and Russians could have pursued other avenues even if they had some legit claim, such as cutting gas and blockading the coast.
Always_Ask…, blockading the coast is an act of war. Plus, why are you concentrating on conducting war in Europe, in Asia they are not human?
I am not saying I agree with everything Putin says or does, but the West and Ukraine should not have been provoking the Russian bear. They were asking, sort of, for what they got.And how does one explain away the atrocities in Bucha?
Amil: mdd already provided a plausible response to your question.
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