April 10, 2022 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #2077228
Are you even sure there is a war between Russia and Ukraine? Maybe the media simply manufactured the entire war thing.
Maybe its not even Russia Thats fighting Ukraine, its the media that us feeding us this made up news.April 10, 2022 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #2077234modernParticipant
People claimed that the Genocide of Jews by the Nazis was just Jewish propaganda. (The same accusation had been made about the Armenian Genocide that had inspired Hitler yemach shmo.)
And that there wasn’t any real hard evidence.
And that the media was making it up.
And that Hitler was justified because Germany had been badly treated in the peace conference after WW1.
And that we should support Hitler because he went to war with Stalin.
And that Churchill and Roosevelt were despicable.
Goebbels was very successful at his propaganda and we now see that Putin is today.April 10, 2022 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #2077252
“The object of terrorism is terrorism. The object of oppression is oppression. The object of torture is torture. The object of murder is murder. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?”
― George Orwell, 1984
Russians believe Putin’s propaganda because they have no freedom of the press. What excuse do the people in countries with freedom of the press have to let mini hitler commit genocide??April 10, 2022 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #2077260ujmParticipant
What freedom of the press? Those not towing the Far Left lines are quickly booted from social media, virtually all of which is controlled by the Left, and were omitted from any reports in Big Media, purveyors of the so-called “mainstream media” that exists only to peddle what their Democrat puppet masters wish to be “reported”.April 10, 2022 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #2077264
Modern, if you see the Ukrainian government and the West saying gross exaggerations or lies to your face, and then they tell you they discovered evidence of the atrocities being committed– there are big reasons to doubt their claims.
Modern and 2cents, Liz Cheney today said that the attack on the Kramatorsk train station shows that Russia is committing genocide in Ukraine. Your take on her statement, please.April 11, 2022 12:34 am at 12:34 am #2077300
mdd> West and Ukraine should not have been provoking the Russian bear.
Whether it was wise or not for Ukraine do what they do does not excuse Russia’s crimes. For comparison, imperfect Jewish politics before hurbanos of batei mikdash does not make Babylonians or Romans tzadikim.April 11, 2022 12:36 am at 12:36 am #2077301
mdd> why are you concentrating on conducting war in Europe, in Asia they are not human?
I agree on this. Russia’s behavior in Syria was similar in terms of bombing population and it was even noticed that Rs rotated their pilots in an apparent effort to train them. Now we know what they trained for. Europeans are at fault that they did not stop their Russia-friendship project then, concentrating their efforts on receiving refugees that Rs were sending their way.
I am still not sure what major point you are trying to make by questioning minute details and definitions on genocide, etc. Are you trying to make us support Russian behavior, or are you defending purity of legal definitions.April 11, 2022 1:22 am at 1:22 am #2077311
Always…, are you for real?? Minute details?? Go and look the definition of “genocide”. And of “war crimes”. Also, something you and others here do not realize is that to Putin, most Russians and many Ukrainians modern Russia and Ukraine are two parts of the same country. Learning some history would help.April 11, 2022 8:49 am at 8:49 am #2077377
“ Modern and 2cents, Liz Cheney today said that the attack on the Kramatorsk train station shows that Russia is committing genocide in Ukraine. Your take on her statement, please.”
You selectively choose what to believe and what to ignore. The consensus of all information, from multiple different flows, including rescue organizations, media, raw data from people on the grounds all point to Russia being a very bad actor. If you are selective in what you believe, why believe that there is a war to begin with? Have you seen it with your own eyes, or your simply believing what your being told?
Besides, I’ve not been able to follow the logic behind the entire invasion/special operation, as well as Russia telling the world prior to this that they are not planing to invade Ukraine.
It seems like a chain of lies and deceit by the Russians that not a single country, other than other communist allies, have not condemned and taken action to sanction Russia.April 11, 2022 10:01 am at 10:01 am #2077403
“The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
1984, George OrwellApril 11, 2022 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #2077458
2cents and jackk, when Putin said that Ukraine was committing genocide in eastern Ukraine I found his clam to be preposterous. As I have made clear I doubt or reject claims that look fishy – whichever side they come from. My recommendation: think and don’t just swallow what you are being told.
By the way, the UN says Israel has been committing atrocities in Palestine.
You have nothing to object to my specific arguments.April 11, 2022 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #2077546Amil ZolaParticipant
The tools of Alex Jones, Info Wars, Rumble, Crosstalk et al are clinging to the story that these atrocities are ‘made up’ just like Jones did with the Sandy Hook shootings, the OK city bombings.April 11, 2022 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #2077548
“My recommendation: think and don’t just swallow what you are being told.’
What not to do is simple, the question is what to yes believe. Is there a war now between Russia and Ukraine? Why believe that?
Or, will you just bring examples of statements that are inaccurate as a distraction to this discussion?April 11, 2022 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #2077584ujmParticipant
Amil: Can you kindly share what tools CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, NBC, NPR, PBS, the New York Times, the Washington Post and all their like-minded Big Media siblings use to peddle their daily lineups of false narratives?
Or are you so blinded by them that you accepted them as your gospel.April 11, 2022 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #2077594
Amil Zola, maybe the tools of the Arabs and the Iranians that the other side, at least partially, adopted.
2cents, o please! I agree that many corpses were found in Bucha, but how do you know those people were not just caught in crossfire? Even if a couple of them appear to be executed, how do you who they are — maybe they were Russian POWs or Russian sympathizers who were executed by radical Ukrainians, and their bodies were planted in Bucha? Why in the world do you need independent investigators — everything is clear according to you? (the French team has just arrived – I am not sure if they are 100% independent, but, at least, something…)
Again, if the Ukr. authorities and the West were very careful and straight with what they say, I would be more inclined to believe them. It is not Putin’s intention to antagonize his “Ukrainian brethren” like that. Etc.April 11, 2022 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #2077597
“If liberty means anything at all it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
Animal Farm , George OrwellApril 11, 2022 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #2077615Amil ZolaParticipant
Jos you mention a number of mainstream media I don’t use on any kind of a regular basis.April 11, 2022 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #2077619
“ I agree that many corpses were found in Bucha, but how do you know those people were not just caught in crossfire?”
Why is it that you believe that corpses were actually found? Maybe this is a hoax. Why do you choose to believe this?April 11, 2022 11:59 pm at 11:59 pm #2077623
How do jurors choose to believe that something “was proven beyond reasonable doubt”? Using your brains.April 12, 2022 12:02 am at 12:02 am #2077635
md1> Minute details?? Go and look the definition of “genocide”. And of “war crimes”.
Maybe I was not clear. I am saying “ma nafka mina”. what is the practical difference for us? Someone who openly murders people, whether it is a war crime, whether it is crime against humanity, genocide, in all of these cases, they deserve condemnation and presumably are rodfim and chayavim misa. Maybe academically-minded Germans see a difference that they’ll continue buying gas from stam war criminals, but not, h’v from genocidal criminals. They are experts, let them make these distinctions. How different is it for us? Does it matter what UN item Hitler/Stalin/Mao broke when they killed millions of people?April 12, 2022 12:03 am at 12:03 am #2077636
mdd1, I think your overall skeptical approach to media is healthy and would work well in many historical situations. for example, debunking Nazi propaganda about Poland allegedly starting a war against them, or NYT describing great life of Ukrainian peasants in 1930s.
I wonder who would you believe with your approach when Nazis claimed to uncover “crimes” of Soviets allegedly killing tens of thousands of Polish officers in Katyn forest? Would you believe the side you happen to sympathize a priori, or would you stay open to both options?
So, if taking this situation to the extreme level of skepticism – should we use prior guilt and history into account? In this case, it is RUS that sent army to UKR. There are also numerous recent cases of RUS saying absolute lies, such as that there were no RUS forces in Crimea in 2014 – and later openly giving them medals. They now seem to be saying that UKR themselves shot their own rail station with precision weaponry and similar nonsense.April 12, 2022 1:08 am at 1:08 am #2077689
Always…, depending on the circumstances of the case.
As far as the train station attack goes: Kramatorsk is a very pro-Russian place in the Donbass region. Why would the Russians bomb their own supporters? And with missiles which are used by the Ukrainian army, but not used anymore (or almost never) by the Russian army.April 12, 2022 9:19 am at 9:19 am #2077729
“ Using your brains.”
If one chooses to he skeptical, brains can be fooled.April 12, 2022 9:21 am at 9:21 am #2077771
mdd1, to be able to discuss this, could you provide your sources for the information:
– what missile was that and how they are use or not used by both armies
– how Kramtorsk more pro-russian than Mariupol or other towns bombed by russians
– what do you mean by pro-russian – population share, language, sentimentJuly 18, 2022 11:40 am at 11:40 am #2106825
The last post on this thread was over three months ago.
Russia’s devastating attack on Ukraine continues. He has decimated Jewish communities.
Ukraine has not been defeated and both sides are still fighting and killing each other.
The evidence of War Crimes, Human Rights Violations and Crimes against Humanity that have been perpetrated by Putin and the Russian Army grows by the second.
This includes the June 27 strike on a shopping centre in the Ukrainian city of Kremenchuk,
The shopping mall was directly hit by a Russian AS-4 cruise missile, which carries a 1000-kilogram warhead.
This includes the suspected 900,000 and 1.6 million Ukrainian citizens, including 260,000 children, that have been detained and forcibly deported from their homes to Russia.
The 1949 Geneva Conventions define international legal standards and protections for humanitarian treatment during wartime and explicitly prohibit mass forced transfers of civilians.
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