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Is it normal for the Haftorah book at a MO shul to mention Christianity?
At an orthodox shul that advertises itself “modern orthodox,” the Haftorah book stated that such-and-such is even recognized by Christianity.
Christianity being the key word here.
Is this a modern thing? This modern orthodoxy is new to me and I don’t know if the books are a thing that people get used to or something.
Please just want considerate perspective. No bashing.
I never heard of this before. I do know (and as I mentioned to you before) that MO contains an extremely broad range, and the most left side of MO is really OO even when they don’t use that term.
I wonder if it’s possible that the shul doesn’t realize what’s in the haftorah book. It could be that they don’t approve of everything in the Haftorah book; they just never paid that much attention to it. Or maybe in the context, the example you gave is not as bad as it sounds? Or maybe it is very problematic and you shouldn’t be davening in this shul? Those are the 3 possibilities I can think of.
How are you defining “haftora book”? Is it a differnt haftorah to the one in the chumash for any given week?
I’m not 100% sure, but I think I remember that when I was young there were shuls that used Hertz. I think that just might have been the Chumash that shuls used. There probably was nothing else that had an english translation, and maybe people were vaguely aware that it was problematic (I remember being vaguely aware of that even though I was a little kid), but that just was the Chumash that was used in shuls and no one thought too much about it.
I think that in the olden days in the US (meaning up to app. the 1980’s), a lot of things were accepted that aren’t accepted now and no one thought that much about them. The Orthodox world back then was very different than it is now.
So my guess is just that this shul is a very old shul and probably out-of-town, and they are still using old Sefarim. It doesn’t mean they approve of everything in the Chumash- they just might not have thought about it that much or they don’t have money to buy new ones.
The Hertz Chumash was the standard for, what is called in England, ‘Englisher’ shuls or United Synagogues, at least until many changed to Artscroll. But it is definitely and firmly Orthodox. It is used all over the UK and the Commonwealth, and it seems from what you are saying in former Crown possessions (ie the USA) too.
It’s difficult to know what is troubling you about mention of Christianity, without some context.
I might be wrong, but I think that Hertz was the accepted text used as Geordie said, but I also think it’s possible that it might have been problematic. But I’m really not sure, and I don’t think this is the best place to find out. I think you should try to find out but not here.
In any case,the main issue here is not the Hertz Chumash but the Shul itself. Was there anything else that seemed off to you? Do you know how this shul is viewed by others? How did you end up there?
Maybe you want to start off trying out a mainstream shul that you know is okay? I’m just concerned because you don’t really have enough of a background to be able to tell if a shul is really okay or not. That’s why it might be best for you to try a shul that you know is acceptable (if it exists where you live).
LB – I wrote my last post before seeing your last post. That does make things better.
But what I wrote still stands. Are there other things that bother you about the shul? Can you find a shul that it is clearly acceptable?
I would also suggest approaching the Rabbi politely and asking him about the parts of the Chumash that bothered you. When you hear how he responds, you will have a better idea of what his approach is. He might tell you that he wasn’t aware of those references and he is shocked by it. He might tell you that he is aware that those Chumashim are problematic but he inherited the Shul and it wasn’t something he was able to change since there were more important changes to make. Or he might laugh off the problem.
Whichever response you get, it should tell you what you want to know about the Rabbi and about the shul.
In the Young Israel shul where so grew up it was known as the Soncino Chumash.
The Soncino Chumashes are Blue
Most shuls kept them until they were not usuable anymore. But Im sure some still have them. A New Artscrool Chumash is $20-$30 and no reason to replace until they are bad. It is not cheap to replace 100 or so Chumashes
There are 2 Soncino Chumashes, The Hertz Chumash which has the non-jewish sources and the Hirsch Chumash which doesnt have them. The Hirsh is alot rarer than the Hertz ones as that came after and I think Soncino went out of business. Art Scroll took over that business
LB – first of all, I didn’t mean that you should tell me the answers to the questions. These were questions for you to ask yourself. However,I’m not sure if it would be LH since I don’t think I would ever find out who you are talking about.
“I said that this was very different from what I grasped from Chassidus, where listening to the rabbi was a huge thing.”
I think there are two issues here:
1. There are different levels of “Rabbi”. An LOR is not a Gadol hador. There is one Rebbe per type of Chassidus and they consider him to be a Gadol Hador who has Ruach Hakodesh and capabilities beyond that of a regular Rav. Therefore, they consider him to be capable of telling his followers what to do, which is something that an LOR generally is not capable of doing.
I think #1 is really the main issue, but, additionally:
2. Chassidim and Litvaks do have somewhat of a different approach as a general rule although there are exceptions.
In any case, the way you are presenting what your Rav said, it sounds very reasonable and “al pi Torah”. You ask a sheilah when there is a halachic issue involved, but your Rav doesn’t have to make all your personal decisions for you, and it probably is a good idea for you to make decisions on your own, although getting aitzah is always a good idea especially since there can be aspects of things that you hadn’t thought of or halachic issues that you weren’t aware of.
From what you have quoted of this Rav, he sounds like a very intelligent person. If it weren’t for your second sentence, I would think he sounded great. But your second sentence (However I can tell you that you would tell me to go elsewhere) makes me a bit nervous…
LB: “LU: I’m more concerned that he or someone else will know that I was talking about him. Maybe he posts or reads in the CR, or someone around here does.
This website has been around nearly 10 years, so I’ve heard from the anniversary post. Also, this thread could be here for a while. What if someone reads it and finds out in the future? It could hurt someone’s feelings.”
I’m impressed. I wouldn’t have thought of all that.
Not all chassidim have a Living Rebbe
Lubavich and Breslov do not currently have a living Rebbe
Rav Menachem Schneerson was the last Lubavicher Rebbe and there was no successor
Breslov feel that nobody could replace Rav Nachman the grandson of the Baal Shem Tov.
Rebbe Nachman actually didn’t believe in the concept of a hereditary/semi-hereditary chassidic dynasty. That said, there have been respected Breslov leaders in every generation, which in some respects are similar to the position of a rebbe.
About the Hertz, since it’s an old Orthodox Chumash I don’t think it’s that strange to find it in an MO shul. It’s different than modern chumashim because it’s more academic or literary, with references to Shakespeare and such. The author was probably trying to present Yiddishkeit in a manner that would seem sophisticated to an educated person living at that time period.
I’d be surprised if the shul didn’t have some Artscroll chumashim too, so you might want to see if you can find one and use that instead.
LB, you will find people in all circles (even Litvish ones, and maybe even in some MO ones) who will take on high authority. But you have to be careful and use your seichel. Not everyone who takes on high authority should be.
One should be wary of anyone who claims that they can tell you for certain what you should be doing if you didn’t even ask them and they are not a well-known Gadol Hador (unless we are talking about a straightforward halachic issue). I’m saying this from experience, as well as a sense I’ve picked up from your posts that you may be too trusting (not that you have to assume that I know for certain what you should be doing either :)).
The Hertz chumash was written to counter biblical criticism (kefira), expecially that of his day. Hertz wanted to show the wisdom and relevance of the Torah using all kinds of sources. The audience is a person with an intellectual (secular) approach.
Since I’m both old enough, and grew up OOT. The Hertz Chumash was used in most ‘Orthodox’ US synagogues from the 1950s on. It had an English translation before many were available. Synagogues purchased sufficient quantity to supply the ‘three day a year’ members, so they remained usable for decades.
In the 1990s when I was President of an old time OOT Orthodox synagogue they were still using Machzorim for the Yomin Noraain that were printed in 1932 (they are still in use). They owned about 1000 copies and the shul had dwindled to 300 members as people moved to the suburbs.
When Chumashim and Siddurim are owned in quantity and are in good physical condition, replacement is one of the last things a synagogue’s Board of Directors will spend money on.
That’s very interesting, MDG. Thank you for sharing.
To CTLawyer: Thank you for your informed comments. What is “OOT”?
And may I recommend the Wikipedia article on JH Hertz, which says he attended Union Theological Seminary in New York, which is Conservative, not orthodox.
huju: Out-of-town. AKA Jewish-speak for outside the New York Metropolitan Area.
OOT = out of town. I only know that from the CR.
OOT – Out of town
When Hertz was published there wasnt an orthodox press and at that time conservative was closer to orthodox than they are today
I feel I need to Defend the kovod of Chief Rabbi Hertz zatza”l. I don’t know about his past in the USA, but I do know that he was a fierce opponent of Reform. He also was instrumental in bringing the world renowned Dayan Yechezkel Abramsky Zatza”l to the London Beis Din, which raised the stature of the Beis din even among the newly arriving refugees from eastern Europe. Another point, his son in law was Rabbi Dr Schonfeld, son of the founding Av Beis Din of the Addath Yisroel kehila of London.
Please don’t be moitzie laaz on him by connecting his legacy (carefully chosen word) with Conservative ‘Judaism’.
Soncino has been used for a half century, only being phased out in some shuls when Artscroll became available. In many ways it isn’t as good as Artscroll, especially in bringing meforshim beyond the Rishonim like Ramban and Ibn Ezra that it quotes liberally in its commentary. Artscroll comprehensively brought the works of the Maharal’s extensive commentary, the Chasam Sofer, as well as Rishonim like (occasionally, when applicable) the Meiri, which Hertz didn’t have access to becasue his ksav yad wasnt rediscovered until after the Soncino editions went to print.
It is distinguished by not being hagiographical like Artscroll sometimes is, and it was also as described above a direct response to christological interpretations of our Tanach.
BTW, I can recall seeing it in use in Agudas Yisroel shuls a long time ago, so it wasn’t only the MO who used it.
I’m personally very impressed with the Koren series of publications, which take the strengths of both the Soncino and Artscroll approaches and overcomes their weaknesses.
Huju….
Sorry, you are presenting ‘alternative facts.’
Rabbi Hertz did NOT attend Union Theological Seminary, he attended the Jewish Theological Seminary in NYC.
Although JTS has been the seminary of Conservative Judaism for many decades, it was founded in the late 1800s as an Orthodox institution to combat the spread of Reform Judaism in America. At the time Rabbi Hertz was in attendance it was an Orthodox institution.
lightbrite said:
“Anyway. I love love Chabad. It’s so spiritual. So deep.”
The traditional Ashkenazic way was intellectual connection to Hashem, whereas the traditional Sephardic way was emotional/spiritual connecting. The Chassidic world focused on the emotional/spiritual.
Thank you CTL. I was confident the Emmes would emerge.
Geordie………..
jy is welkom………….
My great uncle attended JTS in 1898 (his grandparents came to NY from what is now Belarus in 1868). In 1960 he was looking for a retirement pulpit in Florida and had to constantly explain that when he went to JTS it was Orthodox.
American Orthodoxy has seen a great shift to the right since the Hungarian Revolution of 1956.
CTL, most of the very religious Hungarian Jewry left Europe within a few years after WWII.
Joseph: I don’t know where you are quoting your statistic from. I am pretty sure that Rabbi Sherer A”H said the same thing that CTLAWYER quoted.
iac, what did Rabbi Sherrer say regarding the exodus of Hungarian Jewry from Europe (which was my point)?
Lightbrite……….
actually my great uncle was second generation born in America, his grandparents arrived in the 1860s. I’m 5th generation born here on one side and 4th on the other.
My paternal grandmother’s side now stretches to 9 generations born in the USA with 5 of the extant lines still orthodox of assorted hues.
I know these things because we have a family foundation approaching 100 years old with 2 owned cemeteries in NY. The family tree in the USA now includes more than 1200 positions.
“actually my great uncle was second generation born in America, his grandparents arrived in the 1860s. I’m 5th generation born here on one side and 4th on the other.
My paternal grandmother’s side now stretches to 9 generations born in the USA with 5 of the extant lines still orthodox of assorted hues.”
That’s really amazing! My family came in the 1800’s on my mother’s side and 1920’s on my father’s. Both my parents are bt. On my father’s side, no line stayed Orthodox throughout (the generation that came was the generation that stopped being Frum), and on my mother’s side, there is one branch that is basically Orthodox, but from the two people in that branch there is only one child (only one of the two got married), and she is not 100% normal.
To CTLawyer: I did not intend to present an alternative fact, but I unintentionally presented a mistake. Thanks for the correction.
And I figured out that OOT stands for Open Orthodox Tribe. Some other posters think otherwise.
Huju………………….
I’m still reacting to the Trump way of presenting nonfacts.
I’m a Liberal with a Capital L. Give people rights and let them choose whether to take advantage of them.
In my generation the vast majority of American Orthodoxy could be described as EuroTraditional. As a 5th generation born in the USA I found that laughable.
CTL, I think you mean libertarian as liberals in the US (in Israel “liberal” means “classical liberal”) are collectivists who pick and choose which rights to “give”. However, if you look at what libertarians are saying about government intervention you might rethink that.
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