September 12, 2021 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #2007206LostsparkParticipant
I have never even heard of someone doing so G-d forbid it to happen, have you seen someone actually drop a Sefer Torah?
Our shul has an extra old Sefer Torah that weighs a ton so it only comes out when needed, I’ve seen some close calls and was wondering if any one on here has seen and actual case of a Torah dropping.September 12, 2021 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #2007271
I’ve seen the guy or bochor doing hagbah hit the ceiling (and leave a dent in it) or chandelier. But that’s about it.September 12, 2021 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #2007277Yserbius123Participant
I don’t think I’ve seen it by Hagbah, but I saw it once by Hachnoso. The fellow wasn’t very frum and a guest of someone in shul. He was unfamiliar with putting the Torah in the Aron and dropped it when trying to lift it in. A year later he came back and for some reason the gabbai gave him Hachnoso again. This time he stumbled but managed not to drop it.September 12, 2021 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #2007282provaxxParticipant
There was a story about a shul that had made an error calculating the size, and ended up with a sefer Torah that was too heavy to do Hagbaha.
Better to just do g’lilah on the shulchan, rather than risk some idiot macho weightlifter dropping the sefer Torah.September 12, 2021 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #2007284
Several “near-drops” but never hit the floor. Typically, its a “newbie” attending a simcha given hagbah by a well-meaning gabbai. They forget (or never knew) that for a heavier sefer you need to bend the knees a bit to provide the needed upward lift and instead try to do it entirely with their wrists and arms. There was always the baal koreh/gabbai/maftir immediately nearby to lend a steady and helping hand.September 12, 2021 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #2007288
The entire kehila needs to make a taanis if chas v’shalom such a thing happens. Anyone who was present at the time who physically cannot fast, should give a notable amount of Tzedaka instead.September 12, 2021 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #2007304
Gabbai needs to remember who is a lefty and call them when appropriate and not call them when not appropriate.
Sephardi Torahs are built better for Hagbah even with all the silver.September 13, 2021 8:24 am at 8:24 am #2007373
many older seforim were made large and the style was to lime both sides of the klaf, and this makes them very heavy. Being tall and and well muscled, I was a frequent choice of gaboim. I think those that pull the sefer off the table and then lever it up can do damage by the push against the table edge
For a medium weight I step in and sweep up with my arms in one move(a T’ai chi maneuver). For the heavies, I push the atzei chayim down using the gagalim for a fulcrum to start the lift, One Yom Kippur I was honored with hagba for Maftir, and I did the “heavy” lift. The etz from the Bereishis side broke off in my hand. With help from the baal koreh we managed to get it raised and one full circle to the rightSeptember 13, 2021 9:56 am at 9:56 am #2007426
Twisted sounds like a real Hagbah Mayvin….everything he says is intuitive and logical but many of us never really stopped to think about the nuts and bolts of what would otherwise seem to be a simple act but fraught with catastrophic outcomes in the hands of an amateur.September 13, 2021 10:01 am at 10:01 am #2007412ubiquitinParticipant
“The entire kehila needs to make a taanis if chas v’shalom such a thing happens.”
September 13, 2021 11:08 am at 11:08 am #2007436mizmorParticipant
Iggros Moshe, Orach Chaim 3:3.September 13, 2021 11:09 am at 11:09 am #2007443mizmorParticipant
“The entire kehila needs to make a taanis if chas v’shalom such a thing happens“
not exactly the entire kehilla. anyone who was present.
it’s 40 separate days of fasting (not nights)
“…..who physically cannot fast, should give a notable amount of Tzedaka instead.”
not physically able is not a necessary condition, the Rabonim allow us in this weak generation to substitute Tzedekah in its placeSeptember 13, 2021 11:09 am at 11:09 am #2007449
Many poskim say that only the one who dropped it fasts but others say:
קיצור שולחן ערוך סימן כח סעיף יב
אם נפל ספר – תורה מידו, אפילו בנרתיקו, צריך להתענות, ונוהגים שגם הרואים מתעניםSeptember 13, 2021 11:20 am at 11:20 am #2007453☕️coffee addictParticipant
Or even better (during the week) look and see which arm the tefillin are onSeptember 13, 2021 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #2007457
coffee addict, he could be a lefty and still put tefilin on the left hand provided he writes with his right hand. uchesavtem ukshartem.September 13, 2021 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #2007471ubiquitinParticipant
thanks!September 13, 2021 1:55 pm at 1:55 pm #2007480zen3344Participant
2008, second Sefer. As I lifted, my right knee collapsed (had ACL reconstruction in 2000). Two guys caught me and another two caught the Sefer. I was on the table for surgery on the knee the week later. We thought I might need another ACL reconstruction, but it turned out to be “just” a meniscal tear.September 13, 2021 1:55 pm at 1:55 pm #2007479
Probably the single most important decision for the gabbai when deciding to whom to give a kavod. If the gabbai insults some ehrliche member of the shul by giving him chamishi rather than shishi, worse case scenario is that one guy gives you a dirty look when you she’nadar him “ba’ad beis hakneses”. If the gabbai screws up in deciding who gets hagbah, the entire olam may be remembering him fondly for the next 40 days.September 13, 2021 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #2007553whitecarParticipant
Was in a hotel in Israel, and there were a bunch of other people there as well. I would say 90% were older than 65. They gave hagbah by shachris to one of those older men, and after 3 seconds he couldn’t maintain it, and it came crashing down. Thankfully onto a table. Not sure what they were thinking.September 13, 2021 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #2007573
The Kitzur uses the words roim,seeing but I think that it means being there where he becomes also responsible, so he would also need to fast.September 13, 2021 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #2007664
RebE > he could be a lefty and still put tefilin on the left hand
exactly. I would prefer the gabbai not remember my full name, but simply remembering when to call me for hagbah.
Re: broken etzim. Sounds like this twisted maneuver puts the etzim at risk and one would need to pay for, and find a servicer, for the repairs. Refuah shleima.September 14, 2021 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #2007825
Zen” Refuah shleima. I can commiserate. Many years ago had a meniscal tear excised and was good until recently as the narrowed joint space has altered my walking with balance and trip hazards. With that and some neural deficits effecting fine motor control in the hands, I can see the end of my hagbah carreer drawing closer, but baruch rofeh cholim, I have good days and have not given up just yet
AAQ: breaking eitzim is not unheard of, certainly in older sifrei Torah. Most eitzim are mortise and tenon jointed and if the glue fails, or microorganisms eat the wood or the glue, there is little stregnth left. As it was, the sefer had shiny new double galgal eitzim that week because that bet knesset is full of peopleThat jump as such mitzvos. And this is yerushalim where two neighbors are sofrim, and i know of six or so others in the shchuna.September 14, 2021 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #2007827
Whutecar. not all over 65s are created (or maintained) equally. In four and some months I will be one of then, and with my now minor disabilities, still a force to be reckoned with Gmar chatima tova CRSeptember 30, 2021 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #2011003Shmili_OOngarParticipant
During Hoshanahs on Hoshana Rabah in my Shul, a Sefer Torah fell from the Ahron. The Rav paskened that nobody needs to fast because it wasn’t a person that dropped it, it fell by itself because one of the atzei chayim snapped; and also it was a Sefer torah that wasn’t currently in use because of a safek if it was passul.
However, the rav did say that everybody at the minyan should take something upon themselves as a result of this, because Hashem was clearly sending a message.October 1, 2021 12:18 am at 12:18 am #2011190a zidParticipant
ayin halichos shlomo if it drops out of the aron one need not fastOctober 1, 2021 2:47 am at 2:47 am #20111925TResidentParticipant
Replying to zen3344: I am prone to sudden painful back spasms if I twist just the wrong way. To be safe, I never do hagba.October 1, 2021 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #2011379
> of a safek if it was passul.
so, it is a sign that it is pasul. Or maybe falling off made it a vadai. Titrahek min hasafeq.October 1, 2021 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #2011422
Isn’t the person responsible who placed the sefer Torah incorrectly in the holy aron? The gemora says to say aron hakadosh Shabbos (32,1).October 2, 2021 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #2011545Shmili_OOngarParticipant
@Reb Eliezer- It wasn’t the fault of the one who placed it in the aron kodesh, it was just that the atzei chayim were very old and weak and it was rolled to the end of the Torah, so all the wait was on the right side and the eitz chayim didn’t hold up.October 2, 2021 10:57 pm at 10:57 pm #2011559
Why are people these days too “weak” to fast and instead seek to replace it with tzedaka?
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