Halacha: no chametz or sell chametz?

You have a Rav?

Your question reminds me of a story, Lightb.

There was once a community of frum, upstanding Jews who davened together in a proper shul but had no Rav. They all directed their Halachic queries to two brilliant poskim who lived a great distance away. While the poskim gave answers, they felt it advisable that the kehilla get their own “in-house” Rav. They conspired to no longer respond to shaylos originating in that community. The kehilla got their own Rav.

The End

so this is a purely LOR question?

Yes, as are many questions asked in the coffee room

To those asking why this specific question is a LOR question: Why?

Has anyone heard of a requirement to possess chametz before Pesach so that it can be sold to a non Jew? I would think that if it were possible to be 100% rid of chametz before Pesach (thus not needing to sell anything), that would be fine, or even ideal, and it doesn’t require a rav to say that there’s no need to go out and buy chametz before Pesach just to have some to sell.

Based on previous posts, I feel that lightbrite has a LOR, and these OPs are more for discussion than psak. If that’s not the case, then AYLOR away.

DaasYochid,

So, having no chometz around is not an issue as far as not selling it, but you do lose the mitzvah of destroying it.

Thank you for pointing that out. We separate pieces of chametz out specifically to be burned, so I wasn’t even thinking about that aspect – just the stuff that we put away and sell.

The reason we sell the Chametz is not because of a box of cheerios, but rather a bottle of Johnny Walker blue. People will throw out the bottle of Cheerios, but people did not spill out the bottle of Johnny Walker blue so they had to do something to prevent people from being over a “lav since they would not spill out the Johnny Walker Blue

To AvramMD,

This particular question is not an LOR question. You are correct there.

However, and it’s a big “however”, I think the concept of LOR (as opposed to ask your 2nd cousin, ask your neighbor, ask your grocer, or worst of all- ask anonymous possibly human entities on the internet) is a concept that needs reinforcement in this instance.

Gerdie, I’m going to hazard a guess that marmite is even less popular among the (possibly human) denizens of the CR than tomatillos.

And I have to admit I had no idea it’s chametz. I wonder if it’s actually edible, or if it even falls into the category of ra’ui le’achilas kelev.

I hope I haven’t offended anyone an ocean away from me…

Golfer, Marmite gave birth to the saying in English culture ‘It’s Marmite. You either love it or hate it’. I do think it doesn’t have many fans in the CR, but for those who may have tasted it, they likely made the cardinal error of spreading it thick. Marmite, as a byproduct of the process of producing beer is real bona fide chometz.

Anyway, for many years in England, marmite made locally was not kosher and had to be imported from South Africa. That’s why one would have sold it, rather than burn it with the rest of the chometz.

Winnie, you’re absolutely right and thank you for clarifying the shaaloh. It should also be pointed out that some people sell any chometz, even a loaf of bread. Many people sell cosmetics which may contain chometz, as their status is doubtful.

LB, I hope we have clarified this subject which, as you can see, absolutely must be presented to a Rav who knows you.

You should ask your LOR all your questions, but I will just point out a couple of things regarding selling chometz. These may have already been mentioned (I didn’t read this thread that carefully), and if so, I apologize.

You don’t have to have chometz to sell. In fact some people say it’s better to get rid of all your chometz before-hand and NOT to sell it. Some people will even throw all their chometz out or burn it rather than sell it (because they hold it’s better NOT to sell chometz). Others will give it away to people who do sell chometz. There is nothing wrong (to the best of knowledge) with not having chometz to sell.

However, I think you might have to do a “mechiras chometz” (selling chometz) anyhow, even if you don’t have any real chometz to sell, just in case you do have chometz around.

You should check with your LOR about that, and also ask him when you can come to him to sell your chometz. Most Rabbis have set times before Pesach when they are available for selling chometz, but it’s basically men who come, so as a single girl, you have to find out when it would be a good time for you to come. (I have a lot of experience with that. In one place where I used to live, they let me come the same time as everyone else and they let me go ahead of everyone else – that was cool)

Before you sell your chametz, if possible, you should know what cabinets,etc, will have things in them that you are selling, and you should know what specific items you are selling (the Rabbi will ask you to list the places, and he might ask you what items you are selling).

Aside from food, there are many products that may be chometz. There are also different opinions regarding which products have to be kosher l’pesach. By products, I am referring to things such as shampoo, conditioner, make-up, other hair products, toothpaste, deodorant, etc.

There are books available that list the kosher l’Pesach products. But you should also ask your LOR about this since there are opinions that some of these items don’t have to be kosher l’Pesach.

LB I’m confused. What do you mean by ‘garbage disposal’?

Randomex, Well done. Do you get it in the US?

One more point- I don’t think people actually sell their pots and pans to the goy- only the chometz on them- if they did, they would have to toivel all the pots and pans after they buy them back, no?

I know we do it, but I never really understood it. Assuming the pots are clean, no real chometz on them, and cabinets were washed down from crumbs. All that would be left would be a taam of chometz on the pots themselves, but would that count to be sold? Anyway we do biur chometz, and nullify anything left. So what exactly are we selling to the goy when we sell our pots/pans/kitchen cabinets?

WTP – my understanding of the practice has always been that they are selling the chametz on the pots and NOT the pots themselves, since selling the pots would required tevila as you pointed out.

My understanding is that it’s a chumra since there is (hopefully) not a kezayis of chometz in your pots. M’ikar hadin, while one is not allowed to eat any amount of chametz on Pesach, you are allowed to have chametz in your possessions if it’s less than a certain amount. I used to think that amount was a k’zayis but most people I know seem to say that it has to be less than the size of a cheerio, so I think I was mistaken about the kezayis. In any case, you would not have chametz in the amount of acheerio on your pots either.

However, there are people who are makpid not to have ANY amount of chametz in their possessions on Pesach. (either because they are being machmir or because they are going by another opinion). Presumably, these are the people who are selling the chametz on their pots.

I don’t think it’s the b’liah they are selling – I think it’s any grease that may be left on their pots if they didn’t clean them super well.

But again, everyone should check with their LOR.

Personally, in my home we never sold the chometz on the keilim, but now that I sell my own chametz, I think I remember that it’s automatically included on the form, so I think I do end up doing it anyhow, but I’m not sure.

“Anyway we do biur chometz, and nullify anything left”

That’s only after you have done everything in your power to get rid of all chometz. L’maaseh, if you c”v find chametz on Pesach, you still have to burn it, even though it was nullified.

iacisrmma – I know bliyos is not grease. I thought it was the grease they were selling and not the bliyos, but I guess I was wrong. That was just my assumption and I wasn’t sure about it (I think I made that clear; I hope so).

Thank you for the correction. I hadn’t thought that you could sell blius since it’s not a real thing. How can the goy take the blius from the pot? Or does it mean that he has permission to use the pot and thereby take the blius that is reabsorbed into the food being cooked? How can we let a goy use our pots?

I’ve never heard of selling your whole house unless you’re going away for all of Pesach. How could you use your house if everything in it belongs to some goy?

The NYC Department of Sanitation has begun compostable garbage pickups in (non-frum) parts of Queens (and maybe elsewhere). They give out cute brown bins, which is interesting because they never gave out special bins for other recyclables.

LuL, LB and anyone else here who may be interested. It is imperative to take instruction from a competent Rav in pesach matters. Some of the things said here are not accepted by everyone. I’ll give a few examples.

Finding chametz on pesach – It is not simple just to burn it. You are thereby showing ownership over it. If it is sold, it is no longer yours. You would have to ask your Rav if you can destroy it. It will depend how much it is, how edible it is and some other things.

Selling your house – Actually selling? Or just renting to the goy? Selling implies a deed of sale and lawyers and everything. Selling chometz is not a joke, it has to be a legal sale. If you look on YouTube for “gateshead rav chametz”, you can watch Rav Zimmerman conduct the sale before and purchase after pesach of the chometz from a real Geordie (as opposed to a Geordie613). He even mentions his dislike of Marmite.

Chometz of a certain size – Keeping chometz of a certain size should not be allowed. It may be technically permitted, but we don’t because it may come to be eaten.

Cosmetics – Some are very particular to go through their whole cosmetics stock checking each item. Others hold, that they are no longer edible for a dog, and therefore not considered chometz.

Kitniyos – a huge subject, and dependent very much on family and local custom.

This is just a small example of questions that come up, and you will find many conflicting opinions. Your LOR in your LOS or LOBH will probably be giving a series of shiurim in the run up to Pesach about all these questions and lots lots more. As learned and experienced as some of us in the CR may be, we are at the end of the day anonymous people with laptops, PCs or smartphones. Nothing can or should replace your reliable competent and caring Rav.

We, and the people I know, don’t sell the whole house. We sell certain cabinets, closets etc. These are listed in the sale contract and we label each cabinet “chometz, sold.” Everything else belongs to us and we use. And many people I know do not sell anything at all, instead they carefully get rid of every bit of chometz. As far as I know, it would be very problematic to live in the house and use your clothing, Pesach dishes/pots, etc, if you sold it. Please speak to the real Rav of your shul- who you will use to sell your chometz – and clarify this point with him.

By the way, LB, I think going up to a stranger in the supermarket to ask halachic shaalos is even worse than asking CR people- at least here you can form some opinion of how the person thinks, what he/she believes based on how he/she posts. How do you know that he really was who he says he was, and that he was giving you a serious answer?

Personally, if some stranger came up to me and blurted out what seemed to be a random question 2 days before Purim, I would think he was joking and maybe would respond in kind.