Halachic Penalty for Attempted Murder

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  • #593607
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    We’re all fairly familiar with the fact that the penalty for murder under halacha is death. This, of course, assumes that the perpetrator had the proper warnings, etc.

    This is all predicated on the fact that he actually succeeds in the murder. So, what happens if he doesn’t? Consider the following scenario:

    Joe decides he wants to kill Sam. So he loads his gun, goes over to Sam’s house and is ready to kill him. Two kosher witnesses are there, give Joe the requisite warning and he acknowledges as required. He then fires…. and completely misses. The bullet flies out an open window and falls harmlessly in a field somewhere. He’s then knocked to the ground and dragged to bais din.

    So, what does bais din do? Let him go to try again? They can’t kill him. They can’t give him malkus for striking someone. They can’t even assess him for damages if he didn’t wound him or damage his property.

    So, what does Bais Din do?

    The Wolf

    #720306
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    They shoot at him and also miss?

    #720307

    Beis Din has extra-judicial powers to enforce the public welfare. In your case they’d probably lock him up until they felt society was safe with his freedom.

    #720308
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    don’t we say Habah L’Hargecha Haskeim V’Hargo (if someone’s coming to kill you take the initiative and kill him) so I would assume that sam can now buy a gun and kill joe.

    I hope this isn’t halacha L’maaseh

    #720309
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    In your case they’d probably lock him up until they felt society was safe with his freedom.

    Did they keep and maintain prisons? Not that I’ve learned all of Shas (far from it), but I don’t recall a single mention of a prison being maintained. Certainly there must have been cases of attempted murder, no?

    The Wolf

    #720310
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    don’t we say Habah L’Hargecha Haskeim V’Hargo (if someone’s coming to kill you take the initiative and kill him) so I would assume that sam can now buy a gun and kill joe.

    I hope this isn’t halacha L’maaseh

    I was strictly concerning myself with Bais Din’s role and possible punishments they could mete out. I did not intend to discuss whether it’s proper or not for the intended victim to take action on his own.

    The Wolf

    #720311

    Did they keep and maintain prisons? Not that I’ve learned all of Shas (far from it), but I don’t recall a single mention of a prison being maintained.

    They must have had prisons. In the case where Beis Din starved someone to death, for certain crimes that were lacking in the strict judicial proof required, they did so by locking him up.

    #720312
    RuffRuff
    Member

    They did have small overnight prisons where they kept the guy while they decide his fate.

    mbachur, I don’t think that someone remains a Rodef forever after. I wonder if he is called a Rodef during planning stages; probably it only applies to actual heading to murder.

    An answer to the Wolf’s question would be that there is no Halachic action on this person, but there are societal actions to be done. Just as setting up traffic rules and patterns are the responsibility of any government, it is not a Halacha per se (besides for Vinishmartem, Lo Saamod, Vechay Achicha Imach…).

    #720313
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    They must have had prisons. In the case where Beis Din starved someone to death, for certain crimes that were lacking in the strict judicial proof required, they did so by locking him up.

    Perhaps, but that’s a very short-term situation. Your previous post made it sound like they kept people there for years on end (until they felt it was safe…).

    Or is that what they used for attempted murderers?

    The Wolf

    #720314
    Rak Od Pa'am
    Member

    Wolf as a Baal Kriah you should remember ??????? ?????

    ????? ?? ;??

    They must have had prisons. In the case where Beis Din starved someone to death, as in ??????? ???? ?????

    ??????? ??;?

    #720315
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf as a Baal Kriah you should remember ??????? ?????

    Yes, I remembered that. But that was an extraordinary situation where they just needed a place to put him until they determined the proper punishment. He was never meant to be kept there for any length of time.

    They must have had prisons. In the case where Beis Din starved someone to death, as in ??????? ???? ?????

    ??????? ??;?

    So, is that what they used for attempted murderers?

    The Wolf

    #720316
    Rak Od Pa'am
    Member

    If you look up ??????? ???? ?????

    ??????? ?? you will see that that was not long term either.

    If I remember correctly Beis Din used extra-judicial powers such as ??????? ???? ????? for economic crimes such as price gouging. Another possibility he was dealt with by the ??? if there was one. a ??? operated under a different set of ????? .

    not only in cases of national security (from memory, correct me)

    #720317
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    OK, so again I ask: Was this what was used for attempted murderers?

    The Wolf

    #720318
    blueprints
    Participant

    nothing? (possibly)

    does anyone have a mekor?

    #720319
    Rak Od Pa'am
    Member

    Wolf

    What did they do with a ???? who killed someone who turned out to be a ????? ? there is no ???? ???? but he still is a danger to society. If you find an answer to this question yours is answered as well.

    RR wrote;

    An answer to the Wolf’s question would be that there is no Halachic action on this person, but there are societal actions to be done. Just as setting up traffic rules and patterns are the responsibility of any government, it is not a Halacha per se (besides for Vinishmartem, Lo Saamod, Vechay Achicha Imach…).

    perhaps that was the function of ???

    #720320
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    What did they do with a ???? who killed someone who turned out to be a ????? ? there is no ???? ???? but he still is a danger to society. If you find an answer to this question yours is answered as well.

    Good question. I’m not sure they did anything. Witness Shimon ben Shetach’s frustration (Sanhedrin 37) at not being able to do anything about someone whom he was 100% sure was a murderer. In that particular case, HKBH handled the matter immediately, but I hardly think that that was the universal rule. Had Shimon ben Shetach had some extra-judicial way to mete out justice, I don’t think he would have been so frustrated at his inability to punish the murderer.

    The Wolf

    #720321
    JustHold
    Member

    Rav Belsky was once asked about circumstantial evidence (DNA, Video surveillance, etc.)in a beis din murder trial when the beis din will be reinstated, and he answered that we would probably lock him up for life. I would assume that this means that beis din had long term prisons and that they will when Moshiach comes and beis din is reinstated.

    #720322
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    But circumstantial evidence is not valid in Bais Din. If circumstantial evidence were valid to punish someone, why was Shimon ben Shetach so frustrated about his inability to punish the murderer based on circumstantial evidence?

    The Wolf

    #720323

    JustHold: Post-Moshiach, I’m not sure Yidden will be sinning anymore.

    #720324
    Health
    Participant

    Wolf- It is valid. Maybe the case of Shimon ben Shetach was that there wasn’t even circumstantial evidence, but somehow he knew this guy was a murderer.

    #720325
    RSRH
    Member

    Wolf,

    Batei Din that are either made up of dayanim mumchim (which we do not have in present times), or that are appointed and accepted by the community over which they exert jurisdiction, have extra-legal authority to do as they see fit to maintain social order. (See Tur and Shulchan Aruch, Choshen Mishpat, Siman 3).

    When acting on such authority, a beis din can punish crimes not punishable at all under Torah law, or impose punishments not sanctioned by the Torah for violations of Torah laws in accordance with their understanding of the needs of the community. Additionally, batei din acting in this extra-legal capacity are not bound by the ordinary rules of evidence; they may accept testimony from otherwise invalid witnesses or circumstantial evidence.

    The important point here is that the extra-legal rulings of batei din acting under “Siman 3” authority are not halachik decisions, and have no precedential value. They apply only to the particular circumstances in which they are issued. Also, the members of the beis din are strongly cautioned to use this great power with the utmost care – every precarious step must be taken with a mind towards their obligations to God and the community, and the kavod habrios due any defendant must never leave their mind.

    Also, importantly, this extraordinary authority is limited by the need to maintain communal support. In modern times a beis din only has “Siman 3” authority if it acts with the consent of the community over which it exerts jurisdiction. It must temper its rulings to meet the approval of the community – it cannot be too strict or too lenient – because as soon as the court no longer enjoys popular assent, it no longer has any authority to act in an extra-legal capacity.

    #720326
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Maybe the case of Shimon ben Shetach was that there wasn’t even circumstantial evidence, but somehow he knew this guy was a murderer.

    He most certainly did have circumstantial evidence. He had very compelling circumstantial evidence.

    He saw a person chase another person into an alley. When he got to the alley, he saw the chaser standing over the pursued with a bloody knife in his hand. He expressed his frustration that even though he knew the guy was a murderer, he could not punish him because he did not witness the actual murder — even though it was very clear what happened.

    The Wolf

    #720327
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    RSRH,

    Thank you for the information. So, to make sure I understand you correctly, a Bais Din *could* punish an attempted murderer with death by using extralegal measures. Is that correct?

    The Wolf

    #720328
    RuffRuff
    Member

    That extra-Halachic stuff is for extra circumstances. Chazal say that when murder was rampant, they’d kill even when it didn’t fit the bill. You can’t make a rule out of that.

    #720329
    Health
    Participant

    Wolf – (Sanhedrin) ??, ? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ???? ????? ???????? ???? (?????? ?) ??? ?? ???? ???:

    ?? ??, ? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???????? ??????? ??? ??????? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ?????: ???????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???: ??? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ??????? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ??????:

    Shimon ben Shetach didn’t hold like this Taana, but we pasken like this Mishna, not like SbS!

    #720330
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Health, RuffRuff and RSRH,

    Thanks for the info. Greatly appreciated.

    If they could do this for an attempted murderer, could they also do it for an attempted suicide (which, at its core, is really a form of attempted murder). Would Bais Din take an attempted suicide (assuming him to be fully competent and all that) and put him in the Kippah to kill him?

    The Wolf

    #720331
    Health
    Participant

    Wolf – You answered you own question – Of course they would. It’s just in our generation, due to the prevelance of mental illness, that most poskim hold that suicide & attempted suicide are Putter – that they have a Din of Shoitah!

    #720332
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf – You answered you own question – Of course they would.

    So if someone who was competent wanted to die badly enough, all he had to do was make sure someone saw him. If he succeeded, then he succeeded. If he didn’t, Bais Din would finish the job for him.

    The Wolf

    #720333
    Health
    Participant

    Wolf – Actually, I don’t agree with you on this one, because psych

    plays a part even back then. If a mentally competent Jew wanted to commit suicide, he would try to make sure noone saw him. Why? Why not let Bais Din finish the job, if he doesn’t succeed? Because even though he wants to commit suicide, most humans want to do it with the least amount of pain. If he isn’t successful, he wants to try it again himself; he doesn’t want Bais Din to do it for him, because their method of death was extremely Painful!

    #720334
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    If a mentally competent Jew wanted to commit suicide, he would try to make sure noone saw him. Why? Why not let Bais Din finish the job, if he doesn’t succeed? Because even though he wants to commit suicide, most humans want to do it with the least amount of pain. If he isn’t successful, he wants to try it again himself; he doesn’t want Bais Din to do it for him, because their method of death was extremely Painful!

    Maybe. Sometimes, however, people just need for others to do the job for them. Witness the phenomenon known as suicide-by-cop. I’m sure that being shot by a cop (who usually isn’t intentionally shooting to kill) isn’t terribly pleasant either.

    The Wolf

    #720335
    blueprints
    Participant

    interesting this story of shimon ben shotach

    cos recently i learned in makos that shimon ben shotach swore (ereh benechomo) that he didn’t take an innocent life by killing one eid zomiffied alone.

    #720336
    Health
    Participant

    Wolf – Why do you always repeat the post? Why not just address the poster by name, like I do? As far as suicide by cop or by themselves. The person would prefer the cop because it’s the same bullet which is the same pain as shooting yourself, but you don’t have to go through that emotion of firing a gun at yourself. Bais Din killing the guy is severe pain. You can just imagine the pain of the person’s belly exploding!

    #720337
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf – Why do you always repeat the post? Why not just address the poster by name, like I do?

    So that other readers don’t have to go searching for the last thing you said. They can see what I’m responding to here in the post.

    Bais Din killing the guy is severe pain. You can just imagine the pain of the person’s belly exploding!

    Not everyone who commits suicide looks for the easiest way out. Plenty of people hang themselves — which is neither quick nor painless when they could probably find other, less painful and quick ways to go.

    If someone wants to die, they aren’t necessarily looking for the quickest, most painless way to go. They might be, but in no way can you say that they always or even generally do.

    The Wolf

    #720338
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    i learned in makos that shimon ben shotach swore (ereh benechomo) that he didn’t take an innocent life by killing one eid zomiffied alone.

    Let’s also not forget that Shimon ben Shetach, through a life experience of his own, had good motivation to make sure that a convicted criminal was truly guilty before executing him.

    The Wolf

    #720339
    Health
    Participant

    Wolf -Of course I can because any normal person who wants to commit suicide looks for the most pain free way possible. I don’t know if hanging is pain free or not, I never tried it, but if it’s painful, then only the abnormal would want to die this way!

    #720341
    RuffRuff
    Member

    If he really wants to die, why doesn’t he just not breathe?

    #720342
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    If he really wants to die, why doesn’t he just not breathe?

    You cannot commit suicide by holding your breath.

    The Wolf

    #720343
    Health
    Participant

    Maybe a dog like Ruffruff can, but us humans can’t hold our breath till we die!

    #720344
    klach
    Member

    no normal person wants to commit suicide.

    Furthermore, there ae well documented of people who commited suicide by fire, for example, like some indian priests who burned themselves in the street publicly as a form of protest.

    #720345
    ronrsr
    Member

    dear RuffRuff: Though we have some voluntary control over it, breathing is involuntary. it is surprisingly hard to die by not breathing. After a while you would pass out and begin to breathe again.

    Try it! you’ll see. make sure you are lying down when you try this because it is easy to hurt yourself when you fall after passing out.

    #720346
    RuffRuff
    Member

    Are you sure, or should I be “safe” and write a will, first?

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