Halachically okay to be liberal?

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  • #1695750

    Fake Yeshiva Bachur
    Participant

    Is it possible that it’s against halacha to consider yourself a liberal, or to vote liberal? As we know, liberals are EXTREMELY pro-abortion, which is against halacha. By supporting, or even voting for liberal agendas, are you indirectly supporting abortion?

    #1695848

    1
    Participant

    Yes. But, someone will bring their 1940 ideas or yeshiva funding lies.

    #1695847

    Joseph
    Participant

    No. Of course not.

    By voting for them you’re certainly indirectly supporting their evil agenda vis-a-vis abortion, toeiva, anti-religion, etc.

    Are we next going to have a question whether it is halachicly okay to give money to abortion or toeiva organizations?

    #1695916

    King_of_BaisYisroel
    Participant

    @fakeyeshivabochur why be a fake bochur if you can be a real one?

    #1695922

    jdb
    Participant

    Liberal is a mindset. The torah is not exclusively aligned with any political party. There are many times and places that torah values align with today’s conservative values, but this isn’t exclusive, and equating any secular value system with a political outlook or party is simply untrue. The torah is unique and bigger than any secular mindset.

    #1695962

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Just the opposite

    Our Neviim tell us explicity to vote for the liberal eg:
    פְּתַח־פִּ֥יךָ לְאִלֵּ֑ם אֶל־דִּ֝֗ין כָּל־בְּנֵ֥י חֲלֽוֹף׃
    פְּתַח־פִּ֥יךָ שְׁפָט־צֶ֑דֶק וְ֝דִ֗ין עָנִ֥י וְאֶבְיֽוֹן׃
    Mishlei 31:8-9

    Compare the number of timses caring for the poor , the downtroden the yosam and almanah is mentioned in Tanach vs how many time abortion is mentioned and you will have your answer

    See this is what happens when you don’t learn Tanach

    #1695973

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    A person can have liberal opinions on specific topics without loving abortion and being liberal in all areas.

    Joseph, weren’t you in favor of common sense gun control?

    #1695966

    akuperma
    Participant

    Define “liberal”. Depending on place and time the term varies. In some countries, the “liberals” are actually the “conservatives”. Whether “liberal” or “conservative” has little to do with abortion (and related policies such as infanticide, population control, etc.).

    Whether it is acceptable for a Jew to support a movement the favors abortion other than when necessary to save the mother’s life, e.g. as a means of population control, or for the convenience of the mother, or to prevent inferiors from reproducing, etc., is a different question that support of overall economic and political policies. Whether you support (or oppose) free trade, or capitalism or democracy, has limited correlation to whether you favor killing babies that someone (not necessarily the mother) doesn’t want.

    Whether the Democrats in the 21st century are “liberals” is problematic. Certainly 19th century “liberals” in the Anglo-phonic world would be horrified at many of the policies embraced by today’s Democrats.

    #1695978

    Some Common Sense
    Participant

    No.

    #1696089

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Ubiq,

    שלמה המלך said לב כסיל לשמאל

    #1696090

    Joseph
    Participant

    Conservatives care far more for the poor , the downtrodden, the yosam and almanah whereas the liberals use them as a tool and prop for political gain while giving them no help and nothing of use or import.

    #1696111

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Conservatives care far more for the poor , the downtrodden, the yosam and almanah whereas the liberals use them as a tool and prop for political gain while giving them no help and nothing of use or import.”

    That may be true about the American Democratic party in its current state, but I don’t think that’s always been true of Liberalism. I don’t think that–all throughout history–the entire concept of liberalism has been a scam to control poor people. I think certain people today use it for that purpose.

    #1696130

    1
    Participant

    Anybody who thinks liberals care about the poor is stuck in the 1930s

    #1696124

    Joseph
    Participant

    Neville, yes, I support strong gun control and am more than fully in line with the Democrat position than Republican. I look everything issue-by-issue and don’t necessarily toe the party line. Nevertheless, especially on social issues, but even on most economic issues, those in America referred to as conservatives are far closer to a correct position — in the vast vast majority of issues — than those referred to as liberal.

    #1696159

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “I look everything issue-by-issue and don’t necessarily toe the party line.”
    Same here, but your original comment seemed to suggest that there’s a wholesale issur on all liberalism. It sounds like you actually just hold it’s assur to be liberal on the specific issues where liberals go contrary to halachah, which is not such a big chiddush. Maybe I just misunderstood your first comment.

    “Anybody who thinks liberals care about the poor is stuck in the 1930s”
    I think the populist liberals do (as wrong as their approaches may be) and the establishment liberals don’t. Same as on the conservative side. I think anyone who thinks 2019 politics are about liberal vs. conservative rather than populist vs. establishmentarian are stuck in the 1990’s.

    #1696171

    Heargod
    Participant

    Mr fake yeshiva buchor.
    As long as u follow halachah what does it matter if the rest of the country is following the Constitution. In following the laws of the country, u must be more machmer but u can’t be more maikel
    The Torah said no on abortion, end of story.
    This question is very similar to aisuvs question on miser for salt. I see where u get ur screen name from. Lol

    #1696177

    Halachically okay to be Socially liberal?
    Halachically okay to be observant ,but support others chillul shabbos?
    Halachically okay to be pro mafial?

    #1696297

    Amil Zola
    Participant

    Is it halachically okay to be a Libertarian? A Green? An independent?

    #1696307

    chiefshmerel
    Participant

    I read the entire Torah.

    There was no commandment of ‘thou shalt not be liberal’.

    #1696330

    Amil Zola
    Participant

    Joseph those republicans that are for the poor will be suggesting cuts in SNAP, cuts in TANF and a 6 child limit, cuts in HUD section 8 funding and cuts in WIC, cuts in SSDI, and limiting support for special needs individuals, cuts in medicaid for children and adults. These cuts would prove disastrous to many in the frum community who depend on these public benefits for survival.

    #1696348

    Joseph
    Participant

    Amil: Complete hogwas and grossly inaccurate.

    Do you believe there is no maximum amount the government should provide in welfare or that restrictions on who should qualify cannot be modified? If a previous government set welfare rates to pay $40,000/year for anyone making under $80,000 year, you believe a subsequent government cannot lower such standards? The amounts are hypothetical but the point is obviously everyone agrees some point is too much; and if it was set for too much for political reasons by a previous government, a later government would be morally right to adjust it lower.

    #1696353

    avreichamshlomo
    Participant

    ליב רעל. Liberalm Poison heart.
    Kamala harris- קמ על ה הרס. Getting up against Hashem to destroy.
    Ilhan omar- the eitz hadaas is speaking
    Rashida tlaib-רשעי דעת לב

    #1696398

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Im liberal when it comes to giving tzdaka.
    Im liberal when it comes to eating food.
    Im liberal when i buy shabbos food.
    Im liberal when it comes to davening.
    Im liberal when it comes to drinking on purim.

    Anyone wanna vote for me?

    #1696396

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    ACS
    I love this game!

    conservative: כאן סר טיב, here good is removed

    (though I’m a bit surprised that you referred to Ilan Omar as the tree of knowledge, I’m not so sure ou thought that one through)

    #1696412

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Can we get an Ilhan Omar-themed omer calendar this year?

    #1696521

    laskern
    Participant

    Joseph, about abortion look up ‘אהלות פרק ז’ משנה ו, אשה שהיא מקשה לילד מחתכין את הולד במעיה וכו

    #1696565

    charliehall
    Participant

    “liberals are EXTREMELY pro-abortion, which is against halacha”

    Not so simple. First, some liberals aren’t. Second, some abortions are NOT against halachah. I was just talking to an obstetrician at the medical complex where I work and asked about the abortions they perform there. They don’t perform many but the ones they do are usually awful situations where either the mother has a serious medical problem that would be made worse by continuing the pregnancy or the fetus has a serious issue. She said that some of the families desperately wanted to have a child and were devastated when things did not work out. One can seriously argue that it is not halachically okay to follow the Evangelical/Catholic position that would prohibit most of these abortions.

    #1696566

    charliehall
    Participant

    Ubiquitin,

    It isn’t just in Nach. It is in Chazal and Rishonim. See for example the draconian business regulations found in Bavli Bava Metzia and the mandated support for the poor in Yerushalmi Peah that Rambam codifies as halachah. On economic matters real Judaism is to the left of Bernie Sanders. (I bet he never learned any of that at his socialist kibbutz.)

    On social matters of course halachah is very conservative.

    #1696567

    Avi K
    Participant

    Amil, I guess they will just have to learn English, and other pertinent secular subjects, get jobs and have the size families they can support. Chazal, in fact, presume that a normal person is embarrassed to take charity. They call it נהמא דכיסופא (bread of shame). Publicly taking from non-Jews is an actual prohibition. The highest form of tzedaka is to give someone productive work. this is best done by the free enterprise system.

    #1696667

    Amil Zola
    Participant

    Avi I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately this isn’t a situation that will be quickly turned around. Work requirements (for women and men) will help change things in the long run. In the meantime without adequate secular/vocational education may of these folks will need assistance. In cases like KY, it’s unlikely that chessed will be able to support their needs once TANF is reduced or timed out.

    Joseph, I’m not going to chase your strawmen.

    Good shabbos to all.

    #1696674

    chiefshmerel,

    Read it again
    Later Nach especially

    Discover Our obligation to the world and our Purpose

    ,Amil Zola,

    Tikkun Olam Is part of our ethos and therefore no

    Not we should allow ourselves to be too closely Affiliated with
    Any political affiliation
    We ought to be & are much bigger than

    #1696676

    Tanchuma RE’eh

    Some drowned in the flood even if they themselves weren’t degenerate for their disinterest in the moral degeneracy

    #1696677

    akuperma
    Participant

    Isn’t the question you are really discussing, “Halachically okay to be Democrat in the21st century?”

    Note that “D” is capitalized refering to the “party” not the idea (which increasingly conflict), and is limited by time, and implicitly by place to contemporary United States.

    Whether the Democratic party is “liberal” is a different issue. I suspect many of the liberals of the 19th and early 20th century would suggest that are clsoer to socialists and fascists than to liberals.

    #1696679

    Joseph
    Participant

    “On social matters of course halachah is very conservative.”

    WB Charlie.

    Having recognized that Halacha is “very conservative” on social matters, would you say that you are very conservative on social matters — in accordance with Halacha?

    #1696901

    Avi K
    Participant

    Amil, you are correct that they will have to be weaned off. That can be achieved by a law reducing benefits by a certain percentage each year coupled with mandatory professional training.

    #1696978

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @FakeYeshivaBochur
    “liberals are EXTREMELY pro-abortion,”

    Keep posting lies.
    I am politically Liberal, but fiscally conservative. Have been active in Democratic Party Politics at local and state levels for decades, delegate to national conventions. elected official, etc.

    I don’t know a single liberal who is pro-abortion. I know many liberals who are pro-choice. They believe it is the individual woman’s right to choose, not society’s right to demand that she carry a pregnancy to term.

    Personally, I do not believe in abortions of convenience. If it is medically necessary to save the life of the mother, I believe it should be an avenue for consideration.

    I serve on my local Democratic Town Committee. There are more than 50 members. At least half are Catholic and oppose abortion, period. They still consider themselves liberal. Abortion is not the litmus test that determines if one is liberal.
    I am pro-civil rights, education, universal healthcare, etc. BUT I am not Pro-Abortion, certainly not extremely so.

    More than 60 years ago when my late MIL was in the local Catholic hospital (closest to her home) to give birth to Mrs. CTL things were not going well. The administrator said to my late FIL, we have to save the baby and not your wife because the baby is free from sin. My FIL informed the admin that we Jews did not believe that way and they were to save both mother and child. They did.
    Today, I am on the board of that hospital. No elective abortions are performed there, only those critically medically necessary to spare major medical damage or death to/of the mother.
    This standard is considered liberal by Catholic authorities, but when a hospital serves a diverse population it must serve them, not dictate that their religious policy trumps sound medical advice.

    #1696984

    1
    Participant

    Your CT town of 100 people is stuck in the 1990s

    #1697078

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @1
    More Falsehoods from the peanut gallery
    My town has more than 30,000 residents and less than 100,000
    It is not stuck in the 1990s, but is modern without destroying traditions. The main part of my home was built in 1803 and there are many older homes than that in town, along with new McMansions in recently developed neighborhoods.
    We are near a large city, but don’t consider ourselves a suburb. Many residents make their livelihood here and many large corporations are in our industrial and office parks. What we do have is a nice racial and ethnic mix that gets along and respects all traditions and practices.

    Your baiting and insults show how shallow you are. You could not reply to my comments so you instead post an insult.

    As I have stated before, I’ll not address anything you say more than once in any one thread

    #1697095

    bk613
    Participant

    CTL you are being misleading. Every single major Democrat supports late term abortions. Most abortions are abortions of convenience and not medically necessary. Disguising your support for abortion as a “womans right to choose, not society’s right to demand that she carry a pregnancy to term” is pathetic. Answer this, why does society have the right to demand people not murder each other. What would you say if you where asked to defend a client who decided that they can no longer afford to keep their child so they injected the child with digoxin to stop his heart (the method used in late term abortions) Why is abortion, especially late term abortion when the baby can survive outside the womb any different?
    I agree that when the mothers life is in danger you must perform an abortion, the baby is considered a rodef. But as a simple matter of convenience abortion is disgusting.

    #1697115

    1
    Participant

    And CTL plays his word games to make his party look good.

    #1697131

    Joseph
    Participant

    Mods, did my comment beginning with “cut to the chase” posted several hours ago not come through?

    I trashed it.

    #1697133

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    bk613
    “I agree that when the mothers life is in danger you must perform an abortion, the baby is considered a rodef.”

    who do you want to make that determination?

    #1697228

    bk613
    Participant

    @ubiquitib
    Competent medical professionals. In the frum world a Rav should be involved as well.

    #1697227

    Joseph
    Participant

    “I trashed it.”

    Mod, what was the objection? It was very pareve.

    I disagree. The tone was off and the questions were already answered in his previous post.

    #1697353

    Fiscally conservative socially left liberal
    Zu midas Sodom
    cf.Avos 5:13;Bereishis 13:13
    Fiscally big government socialist socially left hippie liberal
    Zu midas am ha’aretz Or midas Cana’an

    cf. ibid.; Medrash acc.to
    R’Dovid Kronglass

    #1697514

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Bk613

    Very well put.
    The problem is the only way to achieve “In the frum world a Rav should be involved as well.” Is to allow the woman to choose.
    Halacha and lehavdil secular law have very different approaches to determine “when the mothers life is in danger”

    #1697469

    Avi K
    Participant

    CTL, what is a suburb? Of course a white woman can define herself as black or Native American so a town can define itself as it pleases.

    Time, FYI fiscal conservatives
    1. Promote the highest form of tzedaka
    2. Are by and large very generous with their own money. Other people’s money is not theirs with which to be generous.
    3. See Gittin 45a regarding public money.

    #1697558

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @AviK
    “A suburb is a residential district located on the outskirts of a city. If you live in the suburbs, you probably travel to the city for work” from dictionary.com
    Our town is near a major CT city but has about as much residential as non-residential acreage. Fewer than 20% of the population work in that city, in fact more residents of the city commute to our town to work than vice versa. Of those residents who do not work in our town (my office is here) 5% commute to NYC and the rest are likely to work in other small towns within 25 miles.
    This is different than the bedroom communities that grew up on the train lines to NYC or new (post WWII) suburbs such as Levittown in NY. They were planned for commuters and to be suburbs.
    We are not inferior (Sub) the city, nor economically dependent upon them. They receive far more in tax dollars than they send to Hartford and we receive less, subsidizing their existence.

    #1697584

    Curiosity
    Participant

    Many liberal ideals (toeiva “marriage”, abortion, etc…) run against halacha. If you believe these ideals are valid and good despite being against halacha then you are kofer against the Torah, against Chazal, and against the omniscience of God to be the arbiter of what is truly valid and good. Being a kofer is against halacha – thus being a liberal, as defined colloquially, is against halacha.

    #1697607

    Joseph
    Participant

    ubiq: On that token you should be advocating for the legalization of homicide since, to borrow your argument, Halacha and lehavdil secular law have very different approaches to determine what is self-defense. The only way to insure that if someone kills someone in a halachicly justifiably self-defense that secular law will deem to be homicide is to legalize homicide much as you advocate to legalize most abortion. Do you support making illegal abortion for purely economic, non-medically necessary, reasons?

    CTL: Do you support that abortion in the first trimester for exclusively economic (non-medically necessary) reasons should be legal? If so you negate your earlier argument.

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