Halachically okay to be liberal?

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  • #1697701

    The little I know
    Participant

    Conservatives are not against charity or helping the downtrodden. There is a huge chasm between charity which is voluntary and public welfare. The Torah is not against either of these, and each has its appropriate place. Liberal thinking trashes voluntary charity, and makes everything public welfare. That means the government can impose on everyone a mandatory tax to subsidize these downtrodden. This was the Machatzis Hashekel to build the Mishkan, etc. But these were far and few between. Maaser Oni was only the third and sixth year of the Shmittah cycle. Where liberal thinking went loco was the open enrollment into the category of “victims”. These now include those who are upset that they can’t enter the other gender’s rest rooms, those who are unwilling to work, illegal aliens, minorities, and lots of others. Those truly deserving of my charity should get it. Those just lining up for free money are the creation of liberal thinking.

    #1697709

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Liberal thinking trashes voluntary charity”
    This is so untrue. I’m a conservative, but I don’t see why you feel the need to make stuff up to further the agenda.
    “This was the Machatzis Hashekel to build the Mishkan”
    How is that a mashal to welfare?

    #1697707

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Being a kofer is against halacha – thus being a liberal, as defined colloquially, is against halacha.”

    If your colloquial definition of a liberal is “one who supports frivolous abortion” then yes. As you can see, many don’t hold of that definition. Being pro-life is more of a litmus test for the right than being pro-choice is for the left. If ~50% of the country is liberal (it’s actually probably more because their side has a not-voting problem), and more than half the country supports greater regulation on abortion, then it just doesn’t add up. We live in a country where the party platforms are not always fully in line with the voters thanks to special interest groups. Could it be that just like people here vote republican despite disagreeing on gun control, many people vote democrat despite disagreeing on abortion?

    #1697724

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @joseph
    I don’t support abortion for economic reasons, period. The courts have determined that it is legal. As a licensed attorney I am a Commissioner of the Superior Court in CT. Therefore, I may not like a law or ruling, but recognize it as settled law.
    I am not saying this to obfuscate or avoid a direct answer, but am bound by my office and license. This is not the same in all states.

    #1697730

    jackk
    Participant

    If you have an abortion , you have violated halacha.
    If you engage in toevah , you have violated halacha.
    If you believe the torah allows all abortions you are a kofer
    If you believe the torah allows toevah , you are a kofer.
    In America is it allowed to engage is these 2 activities. Therefore these 2 American laws validated by the Supreme Court are kefirah.

    If a Jew wants to live in a country where these 2 activities are forbidden, they can move there,
    We do not because we enjoy the freedoms of America.

    Liberals believe that if these activities are permitted by the Supreme Court of America than the laws should reflect that discriminating against people who engage in these activities is illegal.

    Just like discrimination against shomer shabbos employees is illegal.
    .

    #1697737

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Fake Yeshiva Bachur,

    “Is it possible that it’s against halacha to consider yourself a liberal, or to vote liberal? As we know, liberals are EXTREMELY pro-abortion, which is against halacha.”

    Democratic voters skew more pro life than the elected officials. Unfortunately, pro life Democratic elected officials face double trouble: getting challenged on the left in primaries, and getting challenged on the right by Republicans in general elections. But some exist. There is even an advocacy group, Democrats for Life of America.

    Both political parties are essentially conglomerations of special interest groups, and neither one is the voice of the Jewish people or the Torah. I think putting all of your eggs into just one basket is unwise, and it closes down opportunities. For example, the majority of elective abortions are done because of economic stress. Solutions that attack this financial insecurity will save more babies than base-riling rhetoric, tilting at policy windmills, and making abortion a wedge issue to get elected. With some flexibility, so-called “liberal” goals can be harnessed to aid pro life goals.

    #1697732

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @curiosity
    “Being a kofer is against halacha – thus being a liberal, as defined colloquially, is against halacha.”

    Your conclusion suffers from the faulty Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc premise: after this, therefore because of this.

    I am a Liberal, therefore I am Kofer and against Halacha.
    Not every Liberal agrees with the items you post. There is no Liberal manifesto to which all Liberals subscribe. These items you call ideals, are not considered ideals by all who call themselves Liberal.
    I am far more Liberal in terms of Civil and economic rights than abortion and Toeiva.
    I was a Justice of the Peace until 2018, I never performed a Toeiva wedding ceremony and CT courts do not compel us to do so. I also never performed an intermarriage between a known (to me) Jew and an non-Jew. The few marriages I performed over the years with non-Jew to non-Jew, usually one participant having been a Catholic who had been divorced and was not free to marry again within the church.

    #1697754

    Joseph
    Participant

    CTL: Would you support a Constitutional Amendment or SCOTUS outlawing abortion for purely economic, non-medical, reasons?

    #1697767

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @joseph
    I would not support such an amendment. I do not believe that the legislature should violate separation of powers by passing legislation to overrule decisions if the court.

    This is probably not the reason you thought would govern my opinion. The Court changes over time and state decisis is not absolute; Dred Scott, Plessey v. Ferguson are two glaring examples. If the country truly swings to oppose non-medically required abortion the court will react over time.

    #2 It is very easy to get a doctor to say something is medically necessary and sidestep your proposed amendment.
    I know many people whose doctors were happy to sign handicapped parking permit applications or excuses from gym class

    #1697764

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    joseph

    “On that token you should be advocating for the legalization of homicide since, to borrow your argument, Halacha and lehavdil secular law have very different approaches to determine what is self-defense”

    you made that foolish argument before.

    Is this a problem in frum communities, do you know of anyone who was prevented from protecting himself in self defense due to this “very different approach” ?

    “Do you support making illegal abortion for purely economic, non-medically necessary, reasons?”

    no. In theory I would support making abortion purely in the hands of the rabbinate. In practice in the US (aside for that being impractical) would set a bad precedent and thus I support the next best thing
    namely allowing the woman to choose
    alos note, I dont support abortion that late in a pregnancy. However I am mevatel my daas to the Torah and if halacha allows it then although I dont understand it, who am I to argue.

    TLIK
    “Maaser Oni was only the third and sixth year of the Shmittah cycle”
    Lol! of the what cycle?
    can you elaborate what this Shmittah is ? I bet it was every conservative’s dream come true

    Avi, we can add shemita to the long list we came up with of Torah economic policies that are clearly anti-capitalist

    #1697828

    lakewhut
    Participant

    CTLawyer that makes it even worse. You’re part of a force that allows abortion. “Settled law” doesn’t change the issue. You’re an example why Jews shouldn’t be lawyers.

    #1697842

    jackk
    Participant

    lakewhut and Joseph,

    Should we make a constitutional amendment/SCOTUS to outlaw toeavah behavior ?
    When are you going to stop demanding that American law be in complete agreement with the Torah ?
    Should we outlaw these Torah prohibitions – inter-marriage ? Adultery ? Avodah Zara ?

    #1697862

    bk613
    Participant

    CTlawyer how can you compare a doctor liberally signing handicap stickers and school notes to allowing the termination (murder) of a fetus? Do you honestly think they are the same?
    An auditing system that could go back and review these decisions should serve as deterrent, especially if the penalty for allowing a non necessary abortion was stiff.

    #1697868

    bk613
    Participant

    @ubiquitin
    Why is the next best thing allowing a woman to snuff out a life? What about carrying to term and giving the baby up for adoption?

    #1697882

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    ubiquitin,

    “In practice in the US (aside for that being impractical) would set a bad precedent and thus I support the next best thing
    namely allowing the woman to choose”

    Is it really the next best thing? The notion that we must support unlimited, unfettered access to abortion on demand (as opposed to limits that account for medical issues) because we are concerned about an extremely unlikely scenario where expert medical opinion would hold that an abortion is unnecessary whereas halacha holds that it is necessary seems like a cop-out. An excuse to be full-throatedly pro-choice while making it look like a Torah position.

    I am much more concerned about the opposite: families being strongly pressured to abort their babies due to expert medical opinion that is contrary to halachic guidelines. This type of pressure is already commonplace, and I think for Torah observant Jews, the greater concern is the prospect for laws that require abortion in these cases R”L, especially as “death with dignity” gains legal and cultural traction.

    #1697889

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    jackk,

    “When are you going to stop demanding that American law be in complete agreement with the Torah ?”

    I think laws geared towards protecting human life fit in with American ideals, such as the unalienable rights enumerated in the Declaration of Independence.

    #1697895

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    bk613
    “Why is the next best thing allowing a woman to snuff out a life?, What about carrying to term and giving the baby up for adoption?”

    1. Nobody will adopt an anecephalic baby
    2. If thats what her Rav tells her to do, thats wha tshe should do

    Avram
    “because we are concerned about an extremely unlikely scenario where expert medical opinion would hold that an abortion is unnecessary whereas halacha holds that it is necessary seems like a cop-out. ”

    Extremely unlikely???? It isn’t my field but I know of several such cases. I have spoken to those who are directly in the field and they say “extremely likely” is an understatement. “routine” is a better descriptor

    (though granted if you meant late in pregnancy then I do not know of such a case and it is in fact very unlikely, I personally oppose abortions once a fetus is viable outside the womb, but again although I do not understand it if a competent Rav where to allow it I am mevatel my daas. )

    “I am much more concerned about the opposite: families being strongly pressured to abort their babies due to expert medical opinion that is contrary to halachic guidelines.”

    That is concerning. Though I have to tell you ,not only , havent I heard of that before, I never even heard of that argument before, thus I am skeptical that it is ” already commonplace”

    ” the greater concern is the prospect for laws that require abortion in these cases R”L”
    That would be very concerning, which yet another reason to support the mother’s right to choose. Keep the government out of it they shouldn’t force people to carry nor to abort .

    Keep it between a woman and her doctor (and ideally her Rabbi)

    #1697896

    jackk
    Participant

    Avram in MD,

    You are one of the few people who post whose opinion I value.
    You are only referring to abortion and not to the other aveira that was being talked about. What would you do with that avaira?
    Regarding abortion – I will argue with you because the debate of when life starts is at the crux of the abortion issue. Only in the Torah do we find a fetus is a human life.
    Every non-jew living in America does not need to be restricted based on the Torah’s definition of when life starts.

    #1697897

    CTL,
    come out and admit that you like the present social status quo & skip political roundabouts

    How about right to Kill/ euphemism right to die

    #1697910

    lakewhut
    Participant

    jackk take some fish oil supplements.

    #1697914

    “When are you going to stop demanding that American law be in complete agreement with the Torah ?”

    When the Torah tells us to and not a moment sooner.
    “politics is the art of the possible “and while that purports to be our goal and desire,
    obviously pushing too much in one decade or generation will do more damage then positive

    What happened to the classic modern Orthodox premise that they’re here to uplift the world
    ‘ Confrontation’ and all that
    Might we at least have an acknowledgement that it was Largely disingenuous,[ little more than a useful cudgel Viz a Viz those in the black hat insular Communities]Never meant to be actualized in real terms?

    ?

    #1697921

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @bk13
    I am not comparing, I am giving examples of doctors doing what is asked of them.
    Medical decisions are opinions, doctors will not be dettered by review. The reviewer was not there and did not meet with the patient at the time. Don’t forget the mental health of the woman…Psychiatrists are MDs and could certify medical need.
    Too easy to get around, doctors prescribed alcohol for nerves and other ailments during Prohibition

    #1697974

    jackk
    Participant

    Lakewhut ,

    Stop trolling.

    #1697943

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @lakwhut….
    I am not part of any force, period.
    I don’t allow or forbid abortion, it is not in my power.
    I accept the rulings of the courts of this land. If I didn’t I would choose to live elsewhere.
    I don’t support non-medically necessary abortion, but also support Separation of Powers
    This is not mutually exclusive
    Next time your shul or cemetery or Mikve or Yeshiva needs some representation you’ll be glad there are some Jewish Lawyers

    #1697973

    jackk
    Participant

    It is Time for Truth

    For arguments sake, since I know you will never be able to answer, where does the torah say this ?

    #1698021

    tgsm
    Participant

    I DONT SUPPORT LIBERALISM BECAUSE 2 THINGS: 1) IT SAYS IN THE TORAH NOT TO KILL. 2) TO BE MISHKAV ZACHAR IS COMPLETELY ASSUR. LIBERALS ARE AMALEK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    #1698195

    “For arguments sake, since I know you will never be able to answer, where”
    ספרי n2nd verse of שמע

    ראשוני on Bereishis, chapter 34

    Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky-
    we are obligated to support a candidate stands for public morality even if they are anti-Semitic over A candidate who is anti traditional morality-
    as dictated to David Eidensohn (Psychotherapist & Rabbi) of Monsey
    Rabbi Shimon Schwab said similar in 1992 Due to our national and Global responsibility

    הרב אהרונ soloveitchik
    Recent publication from his son

    Rebbe of חבד
    תוספות יום טוב
    אבות
    And
    הלכות מלכים

    Note:Possible also Author of אגרות משה As per his letter We are perforce obligated to Proclaim
    ידוע לכל העמים שעם השם שונאי תועבה’

    #1698388

    er
    Participant

    There’s a larger perspective very few are addressing here: Even though the democratic party today stands for some issues that many of us fee uncomfortable with, Jews have benefited much from liberal values and still do. If your non-frum employer gives you Saturday off (and even Sunday), this is directly or indirectly the result of a liberal movement. The fact that an employer is not supposed to discriminate against you based on your being a Jew is due to laws supported by “liberals.” Or the ability to shop in a store, for that matter. It’s the conservative movement which pushes back, arguing for rights of the individual over the inclusion of non-Christians to take part in mainstream American society. We have it so good in America compared to the past and too many of us have forgotten. Political parties aren’t sports teams. You can find your own way and not be pressured by cnn or fox to be a card-carrying anything. Why not be an independent? Especially as a Jew, as another poster says, the Torah isn’t necessarily conservative or liberal., it’s the Torah. Although it’s hard swallow some positions, the maalah of ‘live and let live’ policies is that at least we’ll have more of a place in America. For sure, it’s a balance.

    #1698339

    lakewhut
    Participant

    CTL yes you are Because if it came down to it you’d have to support abortion in a court of law

    #1698328

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    ubiquitin,

    “Extremely unlikely???? It isn’t my field but I know of several such cases. I have spoken to those who are directly in the field and they say “extremely likely” is an understatement. “routine” is a better descriptor”

    I’m not sure we’re referring to the same thing. I’m not referring to pregnancy complications where the medical establishment would advise abortion, R”L. I’m referring to an intersectional case where Torah authorities would require abortion, but the medical establishment (psychological and medical) deems it unnecessary. That specific scenario, which is the linchpin of your pro-choice is consistent with Torah argument, seems incredibly unlikely to me.

    #1698367

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Jackk:

    It’s a Torah issur for a goy to get an abortion. There’s even room to say it’s assur for them in life-threatening situations because of the lack of mitzvah of pikuach nefesh.

    Also, the halachah does not exactly define a fetus as human life. That’s sort of a distortion that right-wingers have created. For example, with the recent controversy about killing the baby after it’s born, conservatives were asked why it’s any worse than normal abortion if a fetus is human life. I heard Ben Shapiro claim that abortion is just as bad, which is totally contrary to the Torah’s opinion. It is a bigger issur to kill an already born human than to get an abortion.

    #1698373

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    jackk,

    “You are only referring to abortion and not to the other aveira that was being talked about. What would you do with that avaira?”

    I am admittedly less knowledgeable about the nuances and ramifications of that debate, so this question may seem naive, but why are the states and Federal government involved with marriage at all, when it is primarily a religiously defined status (holy matrimony)? Why not do away with marriage licenses and laws completely, and allow people to choose whoever they want to be their beneficiaries, power of attorney, etc? People can do that now; legal marriage just sets the spouse as the default.

    Regarding abortion – I will argue with you because the debate of when life starts is at the crux of the abortion issue. Only in the Torah do we find a fetus is a human life.

    Nah. Go to the library and check out any secular week-by-week style pregnancy book. They all refer to the baby with the language of personhood. The only time a baby becomes a non-human, non-living fetus is when discussing abortion.

    Every non-jew living in America does not need to be restricted based on the Torah’s definition of when life starts.”

    Pardon the slippery slope argument, but would you hold the same way if America decided that “life” starts at 4 months of age? For the first three months of life, in many ways, babies act more like fetuses than “sentient” beings. This is not a purely hypothetical question – there are “intellectuals” out there who make arguments such as this.

    #1698415

    Avi K
    Participant

    CTL,
    1. “I do not believe that the legislature should violate separation of powers by passing legislation to overrule decisions if the court.” What about the Eleventh and Sixteenth amendments?
    2. Shmittah is not anti-capitalist. It is simply taking a year off to recharge one’s spiritual batteries. The land remains the property of its owner. As for the gifts to the poor (I assume those are the rest of your long list), in every case the poor must do some work for their gifts. Terumot and maaserot are compensation for engaging in spiritual
    work. In fact, the Torah presumes private ownership and even prohibits favoring the poor in a court case where the law is with the rich person.

    ER, Jews have been hurt more than helped by liberal values. Anti-discrimination laws prohibit preferring a fellow Jew in employment, have destroyed the separate institutions (clubs, neighborhoods, etc.) that kept non-observant Jews at least culturally Jewish and therefor kept the intermarriage rate low (even Jewish gangsters and communists almost never married out). Now even campus religious groups may not exclude non-believers. The laws that protect Sabbath observers (which, BTW, have more holes than Swiss cheese) can also be construed as conservative as they encourage religion.

    #1698426

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @lakewhut
    What utter nonsense you post!
    “Because if it came down to it you’d have to support abortion in a court of law”

    No, I would not have to support anything in a court of law.
    #1 I am my own boss, owner of the firm and I get to take or reject cases, they are not assigned to me by a boss
    #2 I don’t do any criminal law work
    #3 Although I am admitted in the First, Second and Eleventh Federal Districts I haven’t argued a case there in decades (since I opened my own form and specialized in Family Law, Estates, Will, Trusts and contracts involving those clients
    #4 There is no slavery or servitude in the US, I don’t have to do anything as you suggest.

    #1698494

    lakewhut
    Participant

    What did you mean by “I am a Commissioner of the Superior Court in CT.” ?

    #1698510

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Avi
    “2. Shmittah is not anti-capitalist. It is simply taking a year off to recharge one’s spiritual batteries”

    Love it! A law reqiring taking a year off of work isnt anticapitalist

    ” As for the gifts to the poor (I assume those are the rest of your long list),”
    nope those were some I can’t find the thread that we came up with but off the top of my head :
    ribbis is assur
    Hassagas gvul (unfettered competition) is assur
    Land can’t be sold permanently
    Loans are cancelled at maximum seven years.
    (there were more I’ll look for the thread)

    sure there are some “workarounds” for some of these, but that doesnt change the fact that the Torah abhors pure market capitalism

    #1698507

    er
    Participant

    CT:
    Exactly, it’s a trade-off and I’m so I’m not defending liberalism 100%, and also as times change so must the measures. On discrimination laws, yes, the concern is assimilation. My understanding is Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi supported the czar over Napolean for this very reason. Having said that, most of the examples you gave wouldn’t effect a religious Jew (except for showing favoritism in hiring). But if your view is that it is better to live with precarious rights in order to encourage a more wholesome or halachic America, maybe that’s a discussion worth having some time. Finally, you say, “The laws that protect Sabbath observers (which, BTW, have more holes than Swiss cheese) can also be construed as conservative as they encourage religion.” The big point to make on your statement is that whether you can “construe” something as conservative ignores the reality that it’s generally only the liberal groups that have pushed for these things. By the way, yes , there are cutouts: why should I be entitled to a job at a bar if all their business is on a Saturday? Makes sense. Anyway, there are things like abortion we don’t like but there are things on the right that could also be against halacha or dangerous to a Jew. It seems as orthodox Jews have gotten more comfortable and affluent, they are automatically willing to take a sledgehammer to the laws that have benefited them rather than fix them with a scalpel. Personally, I believe many of us don’t have an adequate background perspective of history and how this country works, so it’s not something done on purpose; much of the inflexible conservative hype we hear is a result of a dangerous business model the oligarchal media companies re using, preying on less educated folks, but that’s for a different day.

    #1698512

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @lakewhut
    “Commissioner of the Superior Court” is an office/title granted to all attorneys admitted to the CT Bar. It gives certain rights and privileges. For example if you have a form that says the signature needs to be verified by a notary public, in CT it will also say Commissioner of the Superior Court. Any CT licensed attorney can sign and we don’t have to have notaries in our employ in our offices. It also subjects us to certain, rules, regulations and Ethical standards of the court.
    At times we can sit as masters or magistrates in small claims court which is a division of Superior Court. Rulings by such a magistrate are not considered rulings that can be cited as decided law in other court cases,

    #1698521

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Avi
    great news!
    Ifound it

    Another glorious nonsensical back and forth between Health and Ubiquitin

    the lis t we came up with includes:

    hasagas gvul
    ribbis
    Onaas maamon
    undoing land sales at yovel

    We can add Shemtia

    #1698522

    er
    Participant

    Correction: Previous response should have directed to Avi K. Apologies, CTL. Hi there Avi.

    #1698531

    Joseph
    Participant

    er: Your facts are incorrect. It was not the Democrats/liberals that pushed for laws that protect Sabbath observers and other minorities. Those laws came thanks to Republicans. Well into the 1960s the Democrats were still a racist party supporting the subjugation of blacks and other minorities whereas it was the Republicans who from the Civil War era through the 1960s pushed for minority rights against Democrat racists.

    Secondly, even if the Democrats had some good positions 50+ years ago, that has nothing to do with today. Today is a different world. Democrats then were often KKK members (i.e. Democrat Senator Robert Byrd, etc.). Democrats then actually often opposed abortion. Today virtually no conservatives and no Republicans support allowing employers to fire employees who are Sabbath observers. In fact, it is the Democrats who have increasingly become anti-religion in recent years, often supporting laws forcing religious people to violate their religion in order not to discriminate against immoral lifestyles.

    #1698533

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Avram
    ( I posted a more detailed reply that might not make it through the mods)
    “I’m not referring to pregnancy complications where the medical establishment would advise abortion, R”L.”

    Me neither, those are straight forward and not even really controversial, sure the talking heads stir the pot once in a while, even catholic hospitals perform those under a pseudonym (not an “abortion” but an “extraction” or something or encourage the patient to go somewhere that will, it is hard to imagine that changing

    ” I’m referring to an intersectional case where Torah authorities would require abortion,… ”

    So I’m not talking about where they would “require” per se, but rather where they would ALLOW

    ” That specific scenario, which is the linchpin of your pro-choice is consistent with Torah argument, seems incredibly unlikely to me.”

    It might seem that way but I know of several, and colleagues who deal with this say it is “routine” (of course routine is relative a colleague estimates 1 in 2-3 weeks (that he encounters) .

    The bottom line is who should decide in those cases? the Government or the individual (with consultation w/ her Dr(s) and Rabbi)

    #1698548

    Er,

    Reality is past the basic minimum it’s Law of diminishing Returns
    The more

    ‘tolerant’ we try to be and demand the more intolerant they’ll eventually become
    So it was eg Weimar So it will be
    Bereishis 27: 40 comm.
    Second,
    Sure it was easier and Logical to be a knee-jerk paradoxically high-minded liberal in the 19th /beginning of the 20th century
    We ought to have matured since However
    The Impressive legal Moral edifice and structure
    that we were up against was more precarious and fragile in retrospect than we realized. we went Too far in battling to the nth degree blue laws,Economic discrimination laws, and ex fortiori what came after

    Furthermore,worth noting that your position is predicated on Self-centeredness. Thus proving Even to the on the fence straddlers that anti-semites money uber alles to be correct

    #1698622

    jackk
    Participant

    Avram in MD,

    Not everyone gets married in holy matrimony. Besides death beneficiary, the Married status also affects many other purely secular legal and financial issues. Once example is insurance coverage. Another is taxes.

    Regarding Abortion – I doubt that you think that the SCOTUS never read any books. They allowed it with full knowledge of what it says in the science books.

    Regarding your hypothetical question about life staring at 4 months – whenever I debate this issue with strong minded , women’s lib oriented people they are astonished that anyone could even think of such a situation. They are amazed that someone can compare a fetus in a woman’s body to a baby outside it.

    Non pro lifers are further amazed at the callousness that pro lifers show to adult humans who are living but they are refugees, immigrants or of a lower financial status.

    #1698631

    Joseph
    Participant

    The same people who support abortion often support pulling the plug on old sick people that they think isn’t worth the medical expense to keep alive.

    Sometimes they’ll even insist on pulling the plug against the family’s wishes.

    And it is generally the same people who support abortion that also support legalized doctor assisted suicide.

    #1698626

    er
    Participant

    UJM: I believe it was Roosevelt administration behind 5-day work week (a democrat), along with other protections through the unions. If I am mistaken please let me know how. Some employers I read were already giving off Sundays. With increased Jewish immigration it became a popular idea politically to make it 2 days. Having said that, yes agreed. Things change. Neither party has the emes. Only Torah can offer that. And yes, some democrats hold sterotypes of Jews that we hope aren’t true or don’t look good, and the expanding rights they create are ridiculous (and yes, it’s self-serving). But I can tell you as someone who has traveled extensively to “red-states” that republicans can also be anti-semetic, and very often put this on display, even out of ignorance. A big difference is they are the only remaining pro-Israel party and have typically supported family values.
    It’s Time for Truth: similar response, good points, I think I noted this. But don’t understand your last point.

    #1698640

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @AviK
    ##2 Shmittah
    I NEVER mentioned Shmittah….I think you mean this for someone else

    #1 Eleventh Amendment did not violate Separation of Powers: i.e. It did not set new law overruling a decision of the court, It set Parameters of the Judiciary”s Power
    Sixteenth Amendment..Federal Income Tax authority bestowed upon Congress, again this did not violate Stare Decisis, in fact the Lincoln Administration levied an income tax back in 1861 to finance the Civil War

    None of this has anything to do with the subject of this thread

    #1698643

    Joseph
    Participant

    er: The five day workweek is a separate thing from making it illegal to fire people who don’t want to work on their religious holidays or day of rest. Even after the advent of a five day workweek it was still legal to fire a worker who wouldn’t or couldn’t work on a certain day of the week due to religion. That protection came later.

    In libeal circles (universities, minority rights movements, BDS and other left-wing circles), anti-semitism is openly tolerated. Sometimes they call it anti-Israel and sometimes they don’t bother. And these groups are officially tolerated, coddled to and accepted by official Democrat politicians.

    #1698661

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    jackk,

    “I debate this issue with strong minded , women’s lib oriented people they are astonished that anyone could even think of such a situation. They are amazed that someone can compare a fetus in a woman’s body to a baby outside it.”

    What happens when a fetus survives an abortion attempt?

    “Non pro lifers are further amazed at the callousness that pro lifers show to adult humans who are living but they are refugees, immigrants or of a lower financial status.”

    Why are you pigeonholing me into a political stereotype? I believe in upholding life and human dignity at all stages.

    #1698771

    Curiosity
    Participant

    CTL, Neville,
    You guys can play lawyer and wiggle and squirm regarding what your personal definition of “liberal” is and how you take personal exception to the generally accepted definition of the term, but you are just playing semantics. When the OP used the word “liberal,” he/she didn’t specify exclusions to specific platform ideals. Therefore, it is only fair to assume he means “liberal” in the publicly used colloquial sense, which is being far left of center on everything, not in your personal sphere of influence’s highly unusual definition.

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