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newbee
Do You really believe somebody who “has been working on his or her eating habit and reducing the gashmius in their lives would get disheartened by this halachic dinner”?
Also please dont call your silliness emes. Denying mitzvas simchas Yom Tov is not emes. It is faltsche frumkeit at best.
newbee,
There is very little emes and zero ahavas yisrael in your posts. You used Mesillas Yesharim to criticize an entire group of people that you don’t even know.
What a shame that you twisted the words of your rebbe into a weapon with which to attack others!
newbee
that is not all you did.
You are either not aware that mesials Yesharim is by definition not miikar hadin
OR you are under the impression that it makes sense to hold people youve never met to lofty standards.
Either way you are being silly.
And yes you did deny a mitzvas aseh
when I said “”Just by eating cheesecake and baked ziti [on shavuos], and enjoying it you get schar!”
you replied “oy vey”
You said:
“Basically, you gave up on defending the main point, and started attacking me personally and about simchas yomtov- which has nothing to do with this. “
more silliness. YOU were the one who brought up yom tov: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/halachick-dinner-what-do-you-think-about-it/page/2#post-570268
You do deserve attack regarding simchas yom tov since denying it is borderline kefira. There is a very real mitzva to have physical enjoyment on Yom tov. It worries me about our chinuch system that you have trouble with this very basic idea.
newbee
“I feel like a high school rebbe”
Thats so funny. I feel you are acting like a high school Rebbe too! The problem is I am not in high school and neither are the attendants at the dinner. What might be appropriate in one context is silly in another, and most of us become a bit more sophisticated after high school. Things arent always black and white. Just because there is a level in mesilas yesharim doesnt mean it is applicable to everybody
“you and everyone else, are not even addressing my point about the halachic dinner”
I have repeatedly addressed it but will address it again. In fact since you remind me of my high school Rebbe I will walk you through it slowly. Please let me know where you get lost:
1) No issurim were involved in the dinner
2) There is a level to strive towards to avoid Gashmiyus
3) This level is dependent on the people involved.
4) The people attending this dinner are not on your lofty level. OR more to the point – you dont know if they are
5) Giving mussar to people regarding a level they arent holding by is inappropriate
6) You criticized the dinner
7) Your criticism is inappropriate
Where did I lose you?
newbee,
A group of people attended a dinner where they were served exotic dishes that aren’t usually eaten along with halachic explanations of what they were eating and why. They came together for an event of learning and enjoyment, and did not violate any Torah or Rabbinic laws.
You chose to start a thread in order to mock a group of people you never even met. You labeled them as “very wealthy MO BTs who love expensive food and Rov Joseph Ber Soloveitchik (in that order)”. You criticized them for not having attained a level of perishus that you read about in a mussar sefer.
You think you’re a ba’al mussar? You feel like a high school rebbe? Get off your high horse and realize that mussar is a tool for self-improvement, not a weapon with which to find fault with others while making yourself feel superior.
You missed the entire point of Mesillas Yesharim. You may want to begin with something easier, perhaps Rabbi Baruch Chait’s excellent Good Middos Series for children. It has plenty of pictures and easy words.
newbee
are you serious?
YOU were the one who said this is ” a common yom kippur practice in MO shules” Not R’ Moshe nor R’ Yosef. They didnt feel the need to mention that. He was asked his opinion on the matter and he gave it. Nobody is saying if someone has asked you if you though it was ok for them to attedn this dinner it would be wrong to offer your opinion.
Your very example shows how wrong you are
Oh and comparing yourself to R’ Moshe and R’ Ovadiya ?
Really?
Even if they denigrate a group of people. (Which they did not) You still wouldnt have a right too
newbee,
I’m sorry, I didn’t realize what a holy individual you are.
Please post a complete accounting of _everything_ you ate and drank over the past week, to include breakfast, lunch, dinner, snacks, etc., along with precise measurements. Not just, “I generally eat chicken and rice. Sometimes hamburgers and rice.”
As a true ba’al mussar, you certainly have this list already compiled and will welcome the opportunity to ensure that you are not chas v’shalom a menuval birshus hatorah in the slightest way.
ubiquitin: See some direct, stringent and specific criticisms about MO from Rav Ahron Kotler (in Mishnas Rabi Ahron) and Rav Shimon Schwab (in Selected Essays and Mitteilungen, the Bulletin of KAJ):
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/modern-orthodox-judaism
One thing is certain. there is nothing halachic about this discussion except that the laws of lashon hara and motsi shem ra are being violated time and time again.
Joseph
Thanks though you misunderstood. This sint about MO per se this is about needless criticism about things that aren’t assur.
Of course if you think a group has wrong then the group should be criticized.
I dont think we are arguing, on the thread you posted on tochacha you seemed to be in agreement regarding tochacha for a mussar ideal. Did I misunderstand?
Newbee
“I am simply repeating the words of the gedolim word for word.”
Ok where did any gadol write the following ” a common yom kippur practice in MO shules on yom kippur” Or this “MO BTs who love expensive food and Rov Joseph Ber Soloveitchik (in that order)”
Please dont call anything you say emes, when you twist the truth so much. At any rate, with your constant dodging of truth (regarding simchas yom tov, misrepresenting Gedolim, etc etc) I think youve lost track of what we are discussing.
Earlier I broke it down for you very simply, i’ll repost it here:
Please let me know where you get lost:
1) No issurim were involved in the dinner
2) There is a level to strive towards to avoid Gashmiyus
3) This level is dependent on the people involved.
4) The people attending this dinner are not on your lofty level. OR more to the point – you dont know if they are
5) Giving mussar to people regarding a level they arent holding by is inappropriate
6) You criticized the dinner
7) Your criticism is inappropriate
Where did I lose you?
So let me get this straight. Everyone thinks they are above the gedolim. Newbee is the gedolim?
Houses in Brooklyn can easily cost over $1 Million dollars especially in Borough Park. You ask anyone outside of NY and they will tell you how Gashmius that is (They wont use the word Gashmius, but they will use the english equivelent)
You can live other places for alot cheaper
Overall housing and the cost of living costs far more in Teaneck or the Five Towns. Talking about gashmius.
The problem is not with the words of the gedolim. The problem is the way you are using those words to criticize and label Jews you never met for not having attained a certain level of perishus.
Let’s see if you are truly worthy of rebuking others. Once again, please post a complete accounting of _everything_ you ate and drank over the past week, to include breakfast, lunch, dinner, snacks, etc., along with precise measurements. Not just, “I generally eat chicken and rice. Sometimes hamburgers and rice.”
What are you afraid of?
I don’t think some of the criticisms here are fair. Newbee is not demanding everyone be on the level of the Mesilas Yesharim, he is merely pointing out that the glorification of indulgence is not a Torah value.
As far as cost of housing, that’s not necessarily indicative of decadence, just of geographic desirability and supply and demand.
Houses in Brooklyn usually costs more than 5 Towns or Teaneck, the taxes are higher in the 5 towns or Teaneck than Brooklyn. Brooklyn is considered more deseriable than 5 towns or Teaneck. However in Monsey area the houses cost similar to Teaneck or 5 towns and the taxes are similar amounts
There is no less gashmius in Teaneck or the 5T than in Brooklyn.
“the glorification of indulgence is not a Torah value”
The real question, and appropriate discussion is, was this dinner a glorification of indulgence. The next question is, if you believe it is, is this the proper forum to give tochacha (or a mussar shmooze) to those who attended. Finally, is it necessary or even appropriate to use terms such as MO when offering that tochacha (or mussar schmooze).
As I’ve said before, even if refraining from indulging in everything you see is not considered a chiyuv, by having such a dinner an organization and its rabbi are essentially saying this is OK. Which is essentially not OK.
I don’t scream at people for not being on a high level of yiras shamayim. I am definitely someone who is severely lacking in the midah of not being a behaimah. But I am also someone who admits and knows there is a problem and I strive for reaching the true level of being a mentsh. And i believe when truth is being spit on i should stand up for it. Sorry but that should not be considered feeling holier than thou.
Others feel the same way. You simply disagree on what the truth is.
The real question, and appropriate discussion is, was this dinner a glorification of indulgence.
Kinda. Some believe there’s nothing wrong with glorifying something which isn’t assur in the SH”A (which i’m still not so convinced of).
The next question is, if you believe it is, is this the proper forum to give tochacha (or a mussar shmooze) to those who attended.
Not sure about that but it surely is the right place to complain about “a dinner somewhere”.
oyyoyyoy,
“I am definitely someone who is severely lacking in the midah of not being a behaimah”
Then keep working on yourself. But are you really suggesting that Rabbi Meir Soloveichik, a huge talmid chacham and yorei shamayim, spat upon the truth? He has an absolute right to decide what is proper for his following and I have a feeling that your learning and yiras shamayim is nowhere near his. It would take a true gadol to say such a thing.
Finally, is it necessary or even appropriate to use terms such as MO when offering that tochacha (or mussar schmooze).
I agree with this point. I think it’s fine to discuss whether a public event is in accord with Torah values, but there is no point in making such generalizations.
newbee,
You could have limited yourself to pointing out that the glorification of indulgence is not a Torah value.
Instead, you chose to start a thread in order to mock a group of Jews you never even met. You labeled them as “very wealthy MO BTs who love expensive food and Rov Joseph Ber Soloveitchik (in that order)”.
We’re still waiting for you to account for everything you ate and drank over the past week.
newbee
Your Rebbe wasted time on this?
Did he criticise them or encourage you to be above it? (yes there is a difference)
Also, if you dont mind my asking what level Rebbe are we dealing with? Elementary school? high School? Beis Medrash? etc
Also
Phil- Why do you want a list of what I eat and drank? It just makes you look ridiculous. This has nothing to do with me, and I never claimed I was a tzadik balle mussar. Even if I was, I would not keep such a list list.
Do as I say, not do as I do
newbee,
The organizer of this event was R. Meir Soloveichik, great nephew of Rov Yoseph Ber Soloveichik. So now you are accusing him of using “Rov Yoseph Ber to push liberal agendas that are detrimental to authentic Jewish practice i.e the masorah”? And of “particularly disregarding the concept of ‘nuval bereshus hatorah’ and glorifying the idea of ‘elevating gashmius'”?
Nice.
But you do eat fancy food
“Particularly disregarding the concept of “nuval bereshus hatorah” and glorifying the idea of “elevating gashmius” which doesn’t work”
since you mention your Rebbe discussing this topic, I am curious what your Rebbe has said/taught about the new trend in kosher supermarkets especially in the non MO enclaves of NYC that have elevated “food” to a whole new level of nuval bereshus hatorah.
They sell Sushi in Williamsburg and Borough Park, Why not condem them for eating “Fancy Food”
Newbee
why do you keep ignoring my questions?
nobody besides you said this was a dinner of kedusha vetahara. As for Talmud Torah, well I know you dont care much for that, but I’m sorry it was a dinner of Talmud Torah.
Out of curiosity if the dinner took place with a similar menu but without the “Halchic food” aspect of it what percentage of people do you guess would have gone? (Youve been guessing as to motivations throughout the post, so please dont now claim you dont want to guess)
I can speak for myself, though I haven’t yet gone partaking of one of these “mesora dinners” is on my “to-do-list” I don’t eat at fancy restaraunts generally, but this would be an exception. Dont downplay the talmud Troah I’d guess more than half were attracted by that aspect.
PHIL-
Then keep working on yourself
shkoyach
But are you really suggesting that Rabbi Meir Soloveichik, a huge talmid chacham and yorei shamayim, spat upon the truth?
That was about people (like you? i dont know, you never really explained what you hold, mostly whined about not giving mussar and tried to be newbee”s nutritionist) trying to make believe the mitzva of kedoshim tihyu doesn’t exist. Not him.
He has an absolute right to decide what is proper for his following
if his following is indeed on a lower level then enough said. if not, well i have my gadol and he says different so theres no use in having this argument. I’m just surprised that this is his position, don’t know much about him though so it doesnt hold so much weight to me.
newbee,
You’re the only person claiming that it was billed as a “dinner of kedusha and tahara”.
The promotion merely stated, “Rabbi Soloveichik will entertain and enlighten with a special lecture over dinner. We’ll learn about some far out there kosher foods, and we’ll eat a few of them too.”
It’s called a “Halakhic Dinner” because halachos are taught about what is eaten.
Was this entire thread just a straw-man argument for you to criticize other Jews and thereby feel good about yourself?
Hard to believe.
oyyoyyoy,
I never claimed the mitzva of kedoshim tihyu doesn’t exist and I personally would never attend this kind of event, in part for that very reason. But that’s my personal view and I defend the choice of any Jew who wishes to attend such an event without being rebuked for it.
The spiritual level of R. Meir Soloveichik’s following is his business and while he doesn’t need anyone’s approval, he also doesn’t deserve criticism. Especially from those who don’t come anywhere near him in learning and yiras shamaim.
Newbee
“They should video the shiur…”
Agreed!
Though there is simething to be said for expericing first hand. When learning chulin you cant compare a shiur or sichas chulin or even chulin illuminated to seeing a shechita.
Plus the food sounds good.
No need to be sorry. The question is Still there. Which step in the ones outlined did I lose you?
newbee
I too am glad we can agree. Though I find it troubling that we cant agree that there is a mitzvah of simcha on yom Tov.
“Im not sure what you mean”
I’ll repost it a third time:
“Please let me know where you get lost:
1) No issurim were involved in the dinner
2) There is a level to strive towards to avoid Gashmiyus
3) This level is dependent on the people involved.
4) The people attending this dinner are not on your lofty level. OR more to the point – you dont know if they are
5) Giving mussar to people regarding a level they arent holding by is inappropriate
6) You criticized the dinner
7) Your criticism is inappropriate
Where did I lose you?”
Well said, newbee.
But criticizing others is something only I am allowed to do.
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