'Halachic Dinner" – What do you think about it?

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  • #1083345
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    newbee

    Do You really believe somebody who “has been working on his or her eating habit and reducing the gashmius in their lives would get disheartened by this halachic dinner”?

    Also please dont call your silliness emes. Denying mitzvas simchas Yom Tov is not emes. It is faltsche frumkeit at best.

    #1083346
    newbee
    Member

    “Also please dont call your silliness emes.”

    All I did was quote mesilas yesharim and a gemara at the end of Pesachim. So I suppose you consider that silly. Then again, the Ramchal was put in cherem wasn’t he.

    I never denied simchas yom tov. And the halachic dinner had nothing to do with yom tov or shabbos. If I made you feel guilty about eating that 6th hotdog or that 4th plate of chullent, I’m sorry.

    Basically, you gave up on defending the main point, and started attacking me personally and about simchas yomtov- which has nothing to do with this. This is getting tiring. If I dont respond, please dont mistake my silence for agreement. Nothing I have said did I personally make up, I have either read or heard my rebbe say everything I am saying.

    #1083348
    Phil
    Participant

    newbee,

    There is very little emes and zero ahavas yisrael in your posts. You used Mesillas Yesharim to criticize an entire group of people that you don’t even know.

    What a shame that you twisted the words of your rebbe into a weapon with which to attack others!

    #1083349
    newbee
    Member

    phil: you and everyone else, are not even addressing my point about the halachic dinner, you are only saying its not nice or mean or attacking me personally. You say “very little emes” when you know everything I am saying deep down is 100% emes. And its hard to twist words when you quote basically word for word.

    I feel like a high school rebbe being jumped on by all the teenage students in an MO school because they dont like what he has to say.

    #1083350
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    newbee

    that is not all you did.

    You are either not aware that mesials Yesharim is by definition not miikar hadin

    OR you are under the impression that it makes sense to hold people youve never met to lofty standards.

    Either way you are being silly.

    And yes you did deny a mitzvas aseh

    when I said “”Just by eating cheesecake and baked ziti [on shavuos], and enjoying it you get schar!”

    you replied “oy vey”

    You said:

    “Basically, you gave up on defending the main point, and started attacking me personally and about simchas yomtov- which has nothing to do with this. “

    more silliness. YOU were the one who brought up yom tov: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/halachick-dinner-what-do-you-think-about-it/page/2#post-570268

    You do deserve attack regarding simchas yom tov since denying it is borderline kefira. There is a very real mitzva to have physical enjoyment on Yom tov. It worries me about our chinuch system that you have trouble with this very basic idea.

    #1083351
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    newbee

    “I feel like a high school rebbe”

    Thats so funny. I feel you are acting like a high school Rebbe too! The problem is I am not in high school and neither are the attendants at the dinner. What might be appropriate in one context is silly in another, and most of us become a bit more sophisticated after high school. Things arent always black and white. Just because there is a level in mesilas yesharim doesnt mean it is applicable to everybody

    “you and everyone else, are not even addressing my point about the halachic dinner”

    I have repeatedly addressed it but will address it again. In fact since you remind me of my high school Rebbe I will walk you through it slowly. Please let me know where you get lost:

    1) No issurim were involved in the dinner

    2) There is a level to strive towards to avoid Gashmiyus

    3) This level is dependent on the people involved.

    4) The people attending this dinner are not on your lofty level. OR more to the point – you dont know if they are

    5) Giving mussar to people regarding a level they arent holding by is inappropriate

    6) You criticized the dinner

    7) Your criticism is inappropriate

    Where did I lose you?

    #1083352
    Phil
    Participant

    newbee,

    A group of people attended a dinner where they were served exotic dishes that aren’t usually eaten along with halachic explanations of what they were eating and why. They came together for an event of learning and enjoyment, and did not violate any Torah or Rabbinic laws.

    You chose to start a thread in order to mock a group of people you never even met. You labeled them as “very wealthy MO BTs who love expensive food and Rov Joseph Ber Soloveitchik (in that order)”. You criticized them for not having attained a level of perishus that you read about in a mussar sefer.

    You think you’re a ba’al mussar? You feel like a high school rebbe? Get off your high horse and realize that mussar is a tool for self-improvement, not a weapon with which to find fault with others while making yourself feel superior.

    You missed the entire point of Mesillas Yesharim. You may want to begin with something easier, perhaps Rabbi Baruch Chait’s excellent Good Middos Series for children. It has plenty of pictures and easy words.

    #1083353
    newbee
    Member

    ????”? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ??????? ???????, ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????, ????? ???????? ?? ?????, ??? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ????, ??????? ???? ??? ????? ?????

    ??”? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ? ???? ?

    Regarding a common yom kippur practice in MO shules on yom kippur:

    ????? ????? ?????? ?????”? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??????, ????? ????? ???? ????? ??. ?????”? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????

    ????? ???? ????”? ???? ???? ???? ??? – ??? ????? ??????

    I guess this is also assur to say since it insults people and the Torah allows for it.

    #1083354
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    newbee

    are you serious?

    YOU were the one who said this is ” a common yom kippur practice in MO shules” Not R’ Moshe nor R’ Yosef. They didnt feel the need to mention that. He was asked his opinion on the matter and he gave it. Nobody is saying if someone has asked you if you though it was ok for them to attedn this dinner it would be wrong to offer your opinion.

    Your very example shows how wrong you are

    Oh and comparing yourself to R’ Moshe and R’ Ovadiya ?

    Really?

    Even if they denigrate a group of people. (Which they did not) You still wouldnt have a right too

    #1083355
    Phil
    Participant

    newbee,

    I’m sorry, I didn’t realize what a holy individual you are.

    Please post a complete accounting of _everything_ you ate and drank over the past week, to include breakfast, lunch, dinner, snacks, etc., along with precise measurements. Not just, “I generally eat chicken and rice. Sometimes hamburgers and rice.”

    As a true ba’al mussar, you certainly have this list already compiled and will welcome the opportunity to ensure that you are not chas v’shalom a menuval birshus hatorah in the slightest way.

    #1083356
    Joseph
    Participant

    ubiquitin: See some direct, stringent and specific criticisms about MO from Rav Ahron Kotler (in Mishnas Rabi Ahron) and Rav Shimon Schwab (in Selected Essays and Mitteilungen, the Bulletin of KAJ):

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/modern-orthodox-judaism

    #1083357
    apushatayid
    Participant

    One thing is certain. there is nothing halachic about this discussion except that the laws of lashon hara and motsi shem ra are being violated time and time again.

    #1083358
    newbee
    Member

    Phil: I have no idea what you are talking about at this point. This has nothing to do with me I never said I was holy.

    I am simply repeating the words of the gedolim word for word. Sorry you can’t appreciate the emes. This is only common in MO shules but individual people are all different. It’s the act of it, not about individuals. Its horrible you think you know more than the gedolim.

    #1083359
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Joseph

    Thanks though you misunderstood. This sint about MO per se this is about needless criticism about things that aren’t assur.

    Of course if you think a group has wrong then the group should be criticized.

    I dont think we are arguing, on the thread you posted on tochacha you seemed to be in agreement regarding tochacha for a mussar ideal. Did I misunderstand?

    Newbee

    “I am simply repeating the words of the gedolim word for word.”

    Ok where did any gadol write the following ” a common yom kippur practice in MO shules on yom kippur” Or this “MO BTs who love expensive food and Rov Joseph Ber Soloveitchik (in that order)”

    Please dont call anything you say emes, when you twist the truth so much. At any rate, with your constant dodging of truth (regarding simchas yom tov, misrepresenting Gedolim, etc etc) I think youve lost track of what we are discussing.

    Earlier I broke it down for you very simply, i’ll repost it here:

    Please let me know where you get lost:

    1) No issurim were involved in the dinner

    2) There is a level to strive towards to avoid Gashmiyus

    3) This level is dependent on the people involved.

    4) The people attending this dinner are not on your lofty level. OR more to the point – you dont know if they are

    5) Giving mussar to people regarding a level they arent holding by is inappropriate

    6) You criticized the dinner

    7) Your criticism is inappropriate

    Where did I lose you?

    #1083360
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    So let me get this straight. Everyone thinks they are above the gedolim. Newbee is the gedolim?

    #1083361
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Houses in Brooklyn can easily cost over $1 Million dollars especially in Borough Park. You ask anyone outside of NY and they will tell you how Gashmius that is (They wont use the word Gashmius, but they will use the english equivelent)

    You can live other places for alot cheaper

    #1083362
    Joseph
    Participant

    Overall housing and the cost of living costs far more in Teaneck or the Five Towns. Talking about gashmius.

    #1083363
    Phil
    Participant

    The problem is not with the words of the gedolim. The problem is the way you are using those words to criticize and label Jews you never met for not having attained a certain level of perishus.

    Let’s see if you are truly worthy of rebuking others. Once again, please post a complete accounting of _everything_ you ate and drank over the past week, to include breakfast, lunch, dinner, snacks, etc., along with precise measurements. Not just, “I generally eat chicken and rice. Sometimes hamburgers and rice.”

    What are you afraid of?

    #1083364
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t think some of the criticisms here are fair. Newbee is not demanding everyone be on the level of the Mesilas Yesharim, he is merely pointing out that the glorification of indulgence is not a Torah value.

    As far as cost of housing, that’s not necessarily indicative of decadence, just of geographic desirability and supply and demand.

    #1083365
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Houses in Brooklyn usually costs more than 5 Towns or Teaneck, the taxes are higher in the 5 towns or Teaneck than Brooklyn. Brooklyn is considered more deseriable than 5 towns or Teaneck. However in Monsey area the houses cost similar to Teaneck or 5 towns and the taxes are similar amounts

    #1083366
    Joseph
    Participant

    There is no less gashmius in Teaneck or the 5T than in Brooklyn.

    #1083367
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “the glorification of indulgence is not a Torah value”

    The real question, and appropriate discussion is, was this dinner a glorification of indulgence. The next question is, if you believe it is, is this the proper forum to give tochacha (or a mussar shmooze) to those who attended. Finally, is it necessary or even appropriate to use terms such as MO when offering that tochacha (or mussar schmooze).

    #1083368
    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    As I’ve said before, even if refraining from indulging in everything you see is not considered a chiyuv, by having such a dinner an organization and its rabbi are essentially saying this is OK. Which is essentially not OK.

    I don’t scream at people for not being on a high level of yiras shamayim. I am definitely someone who is severely lacking in the midah of not being a behaimah. But I am also someone who admits and knows there is a problem and I strive for reaching the true level of being a mentsh. And i believe when truth is being spit on i should stand up for it. Sorry but that should not be considered feeling holier than thou.

    #1083369
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Others feel the same way. You simply disagree on what the truth is.

    #1083370
    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    The real question, and appropriate discussion is, was this dinner a glorification of indulgence.

    Kinda. Some believe there’s nothing wrong with glorifying something which isn’t assur in the SH”A (which i’m still not so convinced of).

    The next question is, if you believe it is, is this the proper forum to give tochacha (or a mussar shmooze) to those who attended.

    Not sure about that but it surely is the right place to complain about “a dinner somewhere”.

    #1083371
    Phil
    Participant

    oyyoyyoy,

    “I am definitely someone who is severely lacking in the midah of not being a behaimah”

    Then keep working on yourself. But are you really suggesting that Rabbi Meir Soloveichik, a huge talmid chacham and yorei shamayim, spat upon the truth? He has an absolute right to decide what is proper for his following and I have a feeling that your learning and yiras shamayim is nowhere near his. It would take a true gadol to say such a thing.

    #1083372
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Finally, is it necessary or even appropriate to use terms such as MO when offering that tochacha (or mussar schmooze).

    I agree with this point. I think it’s fine to discuss whether a public event is in accord with Torah values, but there is no point in making such generalizations.

    #1083373
    newbee
    Member

    “a common yom kippur practice in MO shules on yom kippur”

    I was saying that this is a practical issue in shules- mostly which happen to be MO. I was not criticizing MO people. Lest you say I have never heard of people doing this in my shule.

    “Newbee is not demanding everyone be on the level of the Mesilas Yesharim, he is merely pointing out that the glorification of indulgence is not a Torah value.”

    Thank you!

    #1083374
    Phil
    Participant

    newbee,

    You could have limited yourself to pointing out that the glorification of indulgence is not a Torah value.

    Instead, you chose to start a thread in order to mock a group of Jews you never even met. You labeled them as “very wealthy MO BTs who love expensive food and Rov Joseph Ber Soloveitchik (in that order)”.

    We’re still waiting for you to account for everything you ate and drank over the past week.

    #1083375
    newbee
    Member

    Phil- Why do you want a list of what I eat and drank? It just makes you look ridiculous. This has nothing to do with me, and I never claimed I was a tzadik balle mussar. Even if I was, I would not keep such a list list.

    “Instead, you chose to start a thread in order to mock a group of Jews you never even met.”

    No I did not, I said the people who made it probably had in mind to gear it towards those types of people, thats not to say that so and so who went fits that description at all. The fact is, there are many MO, OO or whatever you want to call them who have attempted to use Rov Yoseph Ber to push liberal agendas that are detrimental to authentic Jewish practice i.e the masorah. Particularly disregarding the concept of “nuval bereshus hatorah” and glorifying the idea of “elevating gashmius” which doesn’t work (my own rebbe says this). That remark stems from this.

    I wish I was so original! My own rebbe said this very thing about this very dinner!

    #1083376
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    newbee

    Your Rebbe wasted time on this?

    Did he criticise them or encourage you to be above it? (yes there is a difference)

    Also, if you dont mind my asking what level Rebbe are we dealing with? Elementary school? high School? Beis Medrash? etc

    Also

    #1083377
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Phil- Why do you want a list of what I eat and drank? It just makes you look ridiculous. This has nothing to do with me, and I never claimed I was a tzadik balle mussar. Even if I was, I would not keep such a list list.

    Do as I say, not do as I do

    #1083378
    Phil
    Participant

    newbee,

    The organizer of this event was R. Meir Soloveichik, great nephew of Rov Yoseph Ber Soloveichik. So now you are accusing him of using “Rov Yoseph Ber to push liberal agendas that are detrimental to authentic Jewish practice i.e the masorah”? And of “particularly disregarding the concept of ‘nuval bereshus hatorah’ and glorifying the idea of ‘elevating gashmius'”?

    Nice.

    #1083379
    newbee
    Member

    Do as I say, not do as I do

    I dont go to halachic dinners.

    #1083380
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    But you do eat fancy food

    #1083381
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Particularly disregarding the concept of “nuval bereshus hatorah” and glorifying the idea of “elevating gashmius” which doesn’t work”

    since you mention your Rebbe discussing this topic, I am curious what your Rebbe has said/taught about the new trend in kosher supermarkets especially in the non MO enclaves of NYC that have elevated “food” to a whole new level of nuval bereshus hatorah.

    #1083382
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    They sell Sushi in Williamsburg and Borough Park, Why not condem them for eating “Fancy Food”

    #1083383
    newbee
    Member

    “But you do eat fancy food”

    I do? And I say its a dinner of kedusha and tahara and talmud torah?

    apushatayid: he probably would not say very good things. But I am not even talking about that, I am referring to this specific case of:

    INDULGING IN GASHMIUS AND CLAIMING IT TO BE RUCHNIUS

    ADMIT WHAT YOU DO AND CALL IT FOR WHAT IT IS

    #1083384
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Newbee

    why do you keep ignoring my questions?

    nobody besides you said this was a dinner of kedusha vetahara. As for Talmud Torah, well I know you dont care much for that, but I’m sorry it was a dinner of Talmud Torah.

    Out of curiosity if the dinner took place with a similar menu but without the “Halchic food” aspect of it what percentage of people do you guess would have gone? (Youve been guessing as to motivations throughout the post, so please dont now claim you dont want to guess)

    I can speak for myself, though I haven’t yet gone partaking of one of these “mesora dinners” is on my “to-do-list” I don’t eat at fancy restaraunts generally, but this would be an exception. Dont downplay the talmud Troah I’d guess more than half were attracted by that aspect.

    #1083385
    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    PHIL-

    Then keep working on yourself

    shkoyach

    But are you really suggesting that Rabbi Meir Soloveichik, a huge talmid chacham and yorei shamayim, spat upon the truth?

    That was about people (like you? i dont know, you never really explained what you hold, mostly whined about not giving mussar and tried to be newbee”s nutritionist) trying to make believe the mitzva of kedoshim tihyu doesn’t exist. Not him.

    He has an absolute right to decide what is proper for his following

    if his following is indeed on a lower level then enough said. if not, well i have my gadol and he says different so theres no use in having this argument. I’m just surprised that this is his position, don’t know much about him though so it doesnt hold so much weight to me.

    #1083386
    Phil
    Participant

    newbee,

    You’re the only person claiming that it was billed as a “dinner of kedusha and tahara”.

    The promotion merely stated, “Rabbi Soloveichik will entertain and enlighten with a special lecture over dinner. We’ll learn about some far out there kosher foods, and we’ll eat a few of them too.”

    It’s called a “Halakhic Dinner” because halachos are taught about what is eaten.

    Was this entire thread just a straw-man argument for you to criticize other Jews and thereby feel good about yourself?

    #1083387
    newbee
    Member

    ubiquitin: “Dont downplay the talmud Troah I’d guess more than half were attracted by that aspect.”

    That means people who would not normally eat exotic foods went and only eat the exotic food for this event. I hope for those people on the fence they dont start making a habit of eating exotic and luxurious delicacies.

    They should video the shiur and post it on Torah Anytime for people who want to learn the Torah of it. Or maybe he can give over the shiur again in his shule. Or maybe people can pick up the artscroll gem or listen to the hundreds of shiurim on yu torah or other sites or go to the many many shiurim given on a daily basis.

    Sorry for not responding.

    #1083388
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Hard to believe.

    #1083389
    Phil
    Participant

    oyyoyyoy,

    I never claimed the mitzva of kedoshim tihyu doesn’t exist and I personally would never attend this kind of event, in part for that very reason. But that’s my personal view and I defend the choice of any Jew who wishes to attend such an event without being rebuked for it.

    The spiritual level of R. Meir Soloveichik’s following is his business and while he doesn’t need anyone’s approval, he also doesn’t deserve criticism. Especially from those who don’t come anywhere near him in learning and yiras shamaim.

    #1083390
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Newbee

    “They should video the shiur…”

    Agreed!

    Though there is simething to be said for expericing first hand. When learning chulin you cant compare a shiur or sichas chulin or even chulin illuminated to seeing a shechita.

    Plus the food sounds good.

    No need to be sorry. The question is Still there. Which step in the ones outlined did I lose you?

    #1083391
    newbee
    Member

    “The question is Still there. Which step in the ones outlined did I lose you?”

    Im not sure what you mean

    “Agreed!”

    Great, we agree on something.

    #1083392
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    newbee

    I too am glad we can agree. Though I find it troubling that we cant agree that there is a mitzvah of simcha on yom Tov.

    “Im not sure what you mean”

    I’ll repost it a third time:

    “Please let me know where you get lost:

    1) No issurim were involved in the dinner

    2) There is a level to strive towards to avoid Gashmiyus

    3) This level is dependent on the people involved.

    4) The people attending this dinner are not on your lofty level. OR more to the point – you dont know if they are

    5) Giving mussar to people regarding a level they arent holding by is inappropriate

    6) You criticized the dinner

    7) Your criticism is inappropriate

    Where did I lose you?”

    #1083393
    newbee
    Member

    ubiquitin: there is no need to repeat yourself “where did I lose you” you said it twice alone in your previous post.

    I never said there is no simchas yom tov. All i said was “oy vey” when I implied to your statement that anyone who eats cake on yontif no matter what will get schar even if he has no idea what he is doing and just likes to eat cheese cake and eats it on yom tov. But I dont want to talk about this since it really does not belong on this thread.

    Im not on a lofty level. I dont want to talk about me. And this is really what this is about, you dont have a problem with my points, you just dont like me personally, which is fine. I dont care if you like me, I just care that my point is heard. I did not criticize anyone specifically. I did nothing inappropriate.

    My point is simple: the idea of indulging in gashmius in the name of ruchnuius is wrong. Period. End of story.

    Thank you

    #1083394
    Joseph
    Participant

    Well said, newbee.

    #1083395
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    But criticizing others is something only I am allowed to do.

Viewing 50 posts - 151 through 200 (of 244 total)
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