'Halachic Dinner" – What do you think about it?

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  • #1083396

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It’s okay, though, to criticize someone for being critical?

    #1083397

    Phil
    Participant

    newbee,

    “My point is simple: the idea of indulging in gashmius in the name of ruchnuius is wrong. Period. End of story.”

    Aside from you, nobody claimed that the purpose of the dinner was to indulge in gashmius in the name of ruchnius.

    #1083398

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Criticism is not something people other than me are allowed to do.

    #1083399

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    newbee

    In spite of asking where did I lose you twice, you still didnt answer. This isnt an abstract conversation about “the idea of indulging in gashmius in the name of ruchnuius is wrong.” This is about a very specific event which you criticized very strongly. I oulined step by step why you are wrong. With which point do you disagree

    1) No issurim were involved in the dinner

    2) There is a level to strive towards to avoid Gashmiyus

    3) This level is dependent on the people involved.

    4) The people attending this dinner are not on your lofty level. OR more to the point – you dont know if they are

    5) Giving mussar to people regarding a level they arent holding by is inappropriate

    6) You criticized the dinner

    7) Your criticism is inappropriate

    ?

    “you just dont like me personally,”

    I dont know you, I bet in real life you are a nice rational person.

    “I did not criticize anyone specifically. I did nothing inappropriate.”

    This is a non-sequitor. There are times where criticizing groups can be inapropriate

    #1083400

    Joseph
    Participant

    A catered dinner of exotic foods is an indulgence in gashmius.

    #1083401

    newbee
    Member

    joseph: thanks.

    phil: thats right, I said it probably was, I suspected that it was for a certain number of people. Here is the menu, from my first post:

    halachic dinner: mixed greens salad topped with an esrog dressing, crispy shallot topped veal intestines stuffed with veal heart, chicken gizzards, duck liver and kidneys, truffle oil drizzled, poached brains with garbanzo beans, white pickled garlic and lemon, Moroccan cigars stuffed with duck foie gras, goat tagine with dates, dried plums, cracked Syrian olives and fava beans, braised squab with poached fennel mousseline, roasted shallots, braised artichoke hearts and fresh truffles, bison sliders with glazed onions and Israeli cracked olive paste and slow cooked ox tail with green peas and sherry wine mousseline.

    Dessert included both a dulce de leche cake in a chocolate caramel box as well as one what was undoubtedly the most exotic item of the night: Mexican chipotle chocolate covered locusts.

    PS, make sure to come because there will be a shiur given! So its all good.

    #1083402

    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    PHIL- I personally would never attend this kind of event, in part for that very reason. But that’s my personal view and I defend the choice of any Jew who wishes to attend such an event without being rebuked for it.

    Great! We’re making headway here. I think I agree that people shouldn’t be rebuked about this, sure thang.

    Btw being the great nephew of a big person is by no means a haskamah.

    #1083403

    newbee
    Member

    ubiquitin please address my points and where you disagree, tell me if you get lost:

    1) this dinner is extremely, extremely exotic, excessive, lavish and indulgent.

    2) this dinner was named a halachic dinner- which implies it is a dinner related to Torah values.

    3) it is wrong to do something in the name of being related to Torah values when this level of indulgence is inherently anti-antithetical to said Torah values.

    4) the concept of nuval bereshus hatorah applies to the every-man, and is not limited to the most elite of Jewish people.

    #1083404

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Newbee with pleasure!

    1)I disagree slightly with 1 since by definition “extremely extremely exotic excessive, lavish and indulgent” is subjective but I still follow you.

    2) is silly since “halachic” does not imply “related to Torah values” But I do see ow reosanble people can disagree, sos till with you.

    3) I agree with, though see #1 and 2

    4) Is where I lose you, since while the CONCEPT applies to every man, the practice is different. For some it is eating Meat ever, for some more than once a week etc… Without knowing the people involved how do you know what level they are on

    Your turn….

    #1083405

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Newbee

    I just had another thought you are missing a step someplace just because something is a torah value doesn’t mean if someone doesn’t follow it he deserves criticism.

    For example I assume you agree their is a level of learning torah every free second. That doesnt automatically mean anybody who spends anytime on ywn is automatically a batlan. It depends on their level, and without knowing the persin youd be wrong to criticize.

    And along the lines of your number 3 above… dont get me started on calling “batalah world news” by the name “yeshiva world news”.

    (That last line was a joke btw)

    #1083406

    Sam2
    Participant

    newbee: 2) this dinner was named a halachic dinner- which implies it is a dinner related to Torah values.

    No, it implies it’s related to Halachah. Most (maybe all) of the foods on the menu have some sort of Sugya related to them. Maybe that’s why it’s called a Halachic dinner.

    #1083407

    Phil
    Participant

    newbee,

    “PS, make sure to come because there will be a shiur given! So its all good”

    I’m not disagreeing that it was an elegant dinner but nobody, aside from you, ever billed it as a ruchniyus event. And ubiquitin is correct, for one person eating steak every day may be nivul birshus hatorah, while for another it may be putting butter on his bread. If we picked apart your entire menu (still waiting for it), I’m sure we could find items that would be considered nivul for some, even if you decide that they’re not nivul for you. Kedoshim Tihyu is a personal standard that individual Jews must set for themselves without criticism from others.

    oyyoyyoy,

    “Btw being the great nephew of a big person is by no means a haskamah”

    I never claimed that R. Meir Soloveichik’s being a great nephew was a haskamah. My point was that he, a talmid chacham and yorei shamayim in his own right, would never use his great uncle to “push liberal agendas that are detrimental to authentic Jewish practice”.

    #1083408

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    newbee,

    The fact is, there are many MO, OO or whatever you want to call them who have attempted to use Rov Yoseph Ber to push liberal agendas that are detrimental to authentic Jewish practice i.e the masorah.

    While the dinner in question may have been pushing something (what that was seems to be the debate in this thread), given that veal and fois gras were on the menu, it certainly wasn’t a liberal agenda!

    #1083409

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “A catered dinner of exotic foods is an indulgence in gashmius.”

    Then I guess you have a problem with many weddings, organizational dinners including those for the finest yeshivos and mosdos and just about every yom tov program available to the general public.

    #1083410

    apushatayid
    Participant

    What is liberal about animal brains, kosher lizards and some of the other unpronounceable items on the menu? How does serving it or indulging in it further a liberal agenda?

    #1083411

    newbee
    Member

    ubiquitin: ok, pretty good, lets address this before going further. Out of my 4 arguments number 4 is where you disagree. I am glad you agreed with me on number 2, or at least were able to see my point how an “halachic dinner”, also known as a “masorah dinner” can be viewed as, well… representing authentic Jewish masorah. Lets take at number 4 then:

    “4) the concept of nuval bereshus hatorah applies to the every-man, and is not limited to the most elite of Jewish people.”

    You responded: “the practice is different. For some it is eating Meat ever, for some more than once a week etc… ”

    Lets take a look at the Ramban:

    ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ???????? ??????? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?????, ?”? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? … ?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ???, ????? ?????? ??? ??????, ??? ????? ????? ?? ?????, ???? ???? ??? ????? ?????:

    ???”? ????? ??? ??

    The word ?????? means glutton. To be gluttonous, to indulge oneself in meat. Now, kindly re-read the menu. If the word cannot apply to a meal like this, it cannot apply to any meal. Thank you, good day.

    #1083412

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    newbee

    to be clear you are dead wrong on point 2 as Sam2 points out, I just see how you were led to your mistake.

    Again I’m npot saying there is no level to strive towards to avoid this meal. I am questioning the Tochacha for those not on the level. (much like critiscing spending time on ywn instead of learning)

    Now having explained precisely in your mistaken train of thought where I lose you, Here is mine For the 4th? 5th? time:

    1) No issurim were involved in the dinner

    2) There is a level to strive towards to avoid Gashmiyus

    3) This level is dependent on the people involved.

    4) The people attending this dinner are not on your lofty level. OR more to the point – you dont know if they are

    5) Giving mussar to people regarding a level they arent holding by is inappropriate

    6) You criticized the dinner

    7) Your criticism is inappropriate

    Where Do I lose you.

    I’ll even help you analyze each step:

    1) I think we agree on this, I beleive you said so explicitly.

    2) We deffinitly agree

    3) Do you beleive everybody is at the same level? (Obviously not)

    4) Do you know the level the people at the dinner are on? (Obviously not)

    5) Do you think it is appropriate to give people mussar regarding a level they arent on? (Proably not?)

    6) We arent disagreeing on this one.

    7) Is the only conclusion I reach following the train of thought above.

    With which point do you disagree?

    #1083413

    Phil
    Participant

    newbee,

    So now you’re calling an entire group of Jews you never met, “gluttons”?

    The words “?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ???” do not refer to someone who eats a single, sumptuous meal but to someone who makes a regular practice of doing so.

    Although perhaps, for someone on your high level a single, sumptuous meal would qualify as “nivul”. The panel will decide once you post what you have consumed over the past week.

    #1083414

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    So many untruths, where to begin?

    #1083415

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Begin by pointing out that newbee did not call people gluttons, he called the menu gluttonous.

    Continue by pointing out the hypocrisy of posters hypercriticizing him for being critical.

    Then remind everyone that he is not so much criticizing the fact that people enjoy a good meal, but that by calling it “halachic”, they are idealizing it when it should not be idealized.

    #1083416

    Phil
    Participant

    Once again, aside from newbee, nobody idealized the meal.

    The promotion merely stated, “Rabbi Soloveichik will entertain and enlighten with a special lecture over dinner. We’ll learn about some far out there kosher foods, and we’ll eat a few of them too.”

    It’s called a “Halakhic Dinner” because halachos are taught about what is eaten.

    #1083417

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    “Continue by pointing out the hypocrisy of posters hypercriticizing him for being critical.”

    Thats silly. I dont think anybody here said criticizing is wrong. In fact a thread was started as an ofshoot of this to that affect.

    The only question is whether criticism is appropriate in this case.

    #1083418

    newbee
    Member

    ubiquitin: I really want to first finish my numbers, because thats my point you and others are attacking and the one I am defending.

    For #2)

    You disagree that a “masorah dinner” does not imply that it represnts or is in line with the Jewish masorah? These dinners are also called masorah dinners.

    “Again I’m npot saying there is no level to strive towards to avoid this meal. I am questioning the Tochacha for those not on the level.”

    No no no- you are cheating. I never referred to giving tochacha in my list. Thats not #4. (I dont want this to turn into a conversation about proper speech and when and when not to say things- that belongs in a different thread. This is regarding the validity of my words in the first place- not freedom of speech). And I am talking about the hypocrisy of the dinner.

    #4 is… the concept of nuval bereshus hatorah applies to the every-man, and is not limited to the most elite of Jewish people.

    ubiquitin: out of those numbers you gave me 12456 are not worth discussing as they dont relate to my point or are obvious. for number 3- this level in terms of a nuval is somewhat subjective to a certain degree but like a said, a dinner like this is certainly included.

    #1083419

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Ubiquitin, http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/halachick-dinner-what-do-you-think-about-it/page/3#post-570296, for example.

    Phil, calling it “halachic” makes it sound like a mitzvah.

    Newbee, I haven’t been to either, but this doesn’t sound like the same thing as mesorah dinners.

    #1083420

    newbee
    Member

    “aside from newbee, nobody idealized the meal.”

    A previous dinner similar to this was titled “An Education with Every Bite!”

    Another one was titled ” A dinner of extreme halachic importance!”

    #1083421

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    I dont follow, in the very post you cite, I mention Tochahcah is sometimes appropriate. My only critique is that in THIS case tochacha for a musar-ideal when you dont know the people involved or the level they are at is inappropriate.

    Newbee

    “No no no- you are cheating. I never referred to giving tochacha in my list. Thats not #4.”

    I’m not sure what you mean. I know you never reffered to it, yet that is the main thing (only thing?) we disagree on namely: Is tochacha appropriate regarding mussar ideals when people are not on the level.

    I have been saying this over and over.

    Granted as DY points out, there were some posts where you indicate that your main concern was the “hypocricy” of this dinner. But that was not your inital post nor your only concern: “At first I thought it was a joke, but then I realized it was probably geared towards very wealthy MO BTs who love expensive food and Rov Joseph Ber Soloveitchik (in that order)- so then I said yea, I guess this makes sense.”

    “#4 is… the concept of nuval bereshus hatorah applies to the every-man, and is not limited to the most elite of Jewish people.”

    Depending on their level, what is one person’s nivul is another’s tuesday. Keep in mind this event isnt a every day event. Like it says on their website “Thank you to our sponsors and patrons whose generosity enabled us to make this UNIQUE OPPURTUNITYy as inclusive as possible:”

    Seems silly to describe this as nivul bershus hatorah (depending on their level)

    #1083422

    Phil
    Participant

    newbee,

    “A previous dinner similar to this was titled ‘An Education with Every Bite!’ Another one was titled ‘A dinner of extreme halachic importance!'”

    R. Meir Soloveichik, whom you named when you began this thread, did not promote it that way.

    DY,

    “calling it ‘halachic’ makes it sound like a mitzvah.”

    Maybe in your mind it does but for those who read the actual promotion, it doesn’t. So this entire thread was started to criticize unknown Jews over what one word may or may not convey and what a group of people should or should not be eating?

    Perhaps we all need to concentrate a bit more on judging ourselves than on judging others.

    #1083423

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Ubiquitin, precisely which halachah in Shulchan Aruch has newbee violated by expressing his displeasure at this dinner?

    Phil, I read some of the material.

    Perhaps we all need to concentrate a bit more on judging ourselves than on judging others.

    Go for it.

    #1083424

    newbee
    Member

    ubiquitin: my initial post was the menu. what I said about “in that order” was pointing out the hypocrisy of the dinner, and I said probably (i.e. look they called it an halachic dinner, thats a holy thing, when they are really gearing it towards a crowd thats not going for the halachic aspect of it so why try and make it seem like a holy thing? Not the those people who went are wrong per-se, but the concept of calling it torahdik is wrong.

    #1083425

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    Lots Being Dan lekaf zechus, lo seilech rachel beamecha, Motzi shem ra

    Newbee

    “Not the those people who went are wrong per-se, “

    I can live with that.

    #1083426

    Sam2
    Participant

    DY and newbee: No. “Halachic” and “Mesorah” dinners are common terms in certain communities. They mean dinners in which Halachos relevant to foods are discussed. Foods for these need to be more exotic because everyone knows relevant Halachos to everyday food. You guys (newbee much more than DY) are willfully misinterpreting the phrase and using that misinterpretation to claim that people are going counter to Halachic values while claiming to endorse them.

    #1083427

    newbee
    Member

    One of the most important battles we face in Judaism today is fighting the terribly damaging idea of “elevating gashmius”- which does not work 90% of the time. The is mikshal so many people and causes so much damage. This idea has somehow become very, very popular in certain communities. If you want to pass judgement on me, and be critical for being critical of a completely hypocritical RIDICULOUS and BLATANTLY GLUTTONIS dinner such as this- I cant stop you.

    #1083428

    always here
    Participant

    RE: “completely hypocritical RIDICULOUS and BLATANTLY GLUTTONIS (sp.) dinner’ ~

    as Phil stated correctly: “The promotion merely stated, “Rabbi Soloveichik will entertain and enlighten with a special lecture over dinner. We’ll learn about some far out there kosher foods, and we’ll eat a few of them too.”

    It’s called a “Halakhic Dinner” because halachos are taught about what is eaten. “

    I saw photos of the foods served. although not your usual fare, it all looked like regular restaurant food (except for the locusts).. of course, described in effusive language as upscale restaurants do.

    the dinner was geared for a bunch of Yidden to try kosher, uncommon foods. and learn the sources for them. period.

    #1083429

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    It’s an intellectual experience.

    #1083430

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Lots Being Dan lekaf zechus, lo seilech rachel beamecha, Motzi shem ra

    Oh, please. It’s a discussion about values, using one specific event as a springboard for discussion. If you disagree with newbee, fine, but don’t forget that there’s also something called onoas devorim.

    #1083431

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It’s called a “Halakhic Dinner” because halachos are taught about what is eaten.

    The word “entertain” in this context doesn’t bother you?

    #1083432

    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: If there’s anyone on this thread being Over on Onaas Devarim, it’s the one calling people gluttonous.

    #1083433

    always here
    Participant

    thread title: ”Halachic Dinner” – What do you think about it?’ = discussion about a specific event. JMHO

    #1083434

    newbee
    Member

    Besides calling me and my ideas silly, and phil continually interrogating me over what I eat this week- I can only image what other people have called me that the mods were kind enough to block.

    Daas Yochid = practical to-the-point common sense.

    Other people = literal fascism

    The fact that this got SO many passionate responses tells me it hits very close to home and I hit a nerve. I dont think further dialog will be beneficial. All the points have been made.

    #1083435

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam, that may or may not be true (I suppose that depends if any of the 225 or so attendees are reading), but there’s clearly worse going on here.

    Always here, as I said, that’s the springboard for a discussion about values.

    #1083436

    Phil
    Participant

    newbee,

    To sum it up a different way:

    Daas Yochid = agreed with you

    Other people = didn’t agree with you

    In regards to “literal fascism” and “passionate responses”, interestingly, the most glaring examples were posted by you –

    on Page 1 of this thread:

    “it was probably geared towards very wealthy MO BTs who love expensive food and Rov Joseph Ber Soloveitchik (in that order)”

    and on this page:

    “completely hypocritical RIDICULOUS and BLATANTLY GLUTTONIS”

    #1083437

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    I never said I was never oiver an issur in this thread just that ” hypercriticizing him for being critical.” isn’t hypocritical since in one case it was warranted and not the other.

    That said I accept your tochacha and will work on avoiding name calling in the future. Though it is very hard for me especially with some posters.

    Kudos to you though, I think you disagreed with every comment I ever posted, and yet can recall few times where you resorted to name-calling (I think the last time was regarding the shiduch crises which I cant believe you buy into the “age gap”

    JK)

    #1083438

    Sam2
    Participant

    Let me just point out the debate tactic that newbee just took.

    Step 1: Make an assertion.

    Step 2: Expand on that assertion and refuse to discuss claims made against said assertion.

    Step 3: Continue to bait people by throwing insults then acting defensive and *still* never discussing claims.

    Step 4: Call opponents fascists and use their passion to prove the point that they are wrong (somehow).

    Step 5: /drops mic

    #1083439

    newbee
    Member

    Phil: “What a shame that you twisted the words of your rebbe into a weapon with which to attack others!”

    Phil: “Please include a comprehensive list of everything you have eaten over the past week in your next post. We’re still waiting.”

    Phil: “You think you’re a ba’al mussar? You feel like a high school rebbe? Get off your high horse and realize that mussar is a tool for self-improvement, not a weapon with which to find fault with others while making yourself feel superior.”

    Phil: “The panel will decide once you post what you have consumed over the past week.”

    Phil: “You missed the entire point of Mesillas Yesharim. You may want to begin with something easier, perhaps Rabbi Baruch Chait’s excellent Good Middos Series for children. It has plenty of pictures and easy words.”

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