Halachos of Eruv – Disqualifications

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  • #594872

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Since there was discussion about this in another thread, I wanted to post.

    BS”D:

    Rashi in Eruvin 6B D”H Reshus Harabim explicity states that in order to have a Reshus HaRabin M’Dioraysa (and thereby not able to have an Eruv), the street must be 16 Amos wide (24-32 feet), must be straight from gate to gate, and the city must have 600K individuals.

    Rav Moshe (Iggeros Moshe, OH Chelek 1, simin 140) posits that the street might not need to be physically straight, but must go from one side of the city to the other (and understands the Rosh & Mordichai (who seemingly disagree) as such as well). Rav Moshe quotes the Magen Avraham that disagrees.

    ??? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ???????

    ??????? ??? ???? ???????? ??? ???? ?????

    ??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? ??

    ???? ??

    The MA:

    ?? ???”? ??’ ??”?

    ??”? ??? ?? ???? ??”? ??????? ???? ????

    ??’ ??????? ??????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???

    ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ??”? ???”?”

    Therefore, if a city does not have a street that goes through from one end to the other, the Eruv would be Kosher according to all shittos. If it does go through, it is subject to a safek of Rav Moshe, with the Magen Avraham stating explicitly that the area is not a Reshus HaRabim.

    #740142

    apushatayid
    Participant

    The point?

    #740143

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    L’Hagdil Torah.

    Because the RBSO said “learn my Torah”.

    And this way the Olam knows the issues involved, whether they use it or not.

    #740144

    twisted
    Participant

    If I’m not mistaken, the 600k requirement for RHR is the daas yachid of Rashi, and most eruvin rely on this. Today, in my old age teshuva, I rely on nobody’s eruv, after being a checker and sometimes repairer for many years,and having developed certain sensitivities. Where I live, many places are tel hamislaket.

    #740145

    apushatayid
    Participant

    So, I better log off and go learn.

    #740146

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    The 600k according to Rav Moshe’s chiddush is the number of people living in the city. Most people understand it as the number of people traveling through the street in question.

    I think the language seems to be difficult according to Reb Moshe. Shishim Ribu bokekin bo seems to imply movement.

    One other question I have in general is why the requirement for lechis on utility poles. Why does the pole itself not serve as the lechi? The nailing of lechis to the poles is what causes all the eruv fights among the non-religious, etc. Any mevinim here who can explain? I know the wire must be directly over the lechi, but doesn’t that usually happen with the pole itself?

    #740147

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    If I’m not mistaken, the 600k requirement for RHR is the daas yachid of Rashi, and most eruvin rely on this. Today, in my old age teshuva, I rely on nobody’s eruv, after being a checker and sometimes repairer for many years,and having developed certain sensitivities. Where I live, many places are tel hamislaket.

    100% correct on the 600K individuals (I remember it being a Yesh Omrim in SA, but can’t recall at this minute). Others had pointed that out as well in the other post. I should have been more complete here (Divrei Torah Aniyim B’Makon Echad V’Ashirim B’Makom Acher). Thanks for pointing that out.

    Tel hamislaket is a halachic (and actual) cliff that ends a Reshus.

    #740148

    always here
    Participant

    there’s always been a huge machlokes here with the Flatbush eruv!

    #740149

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If I’m not mistaken, the 600k requirement for RHR is the daas yachid of Rashi, and most eruvin rely on this.

    It’s actually far from a daas yochid; many rishonim hold this way. According to the Mishna B’rurah’s calculation, there is a slight majority who hold that 600k is necessary for a r’shus harabbim. Others have a different calculation based on rishonim that the M.B. didn’t see.

    #740150

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    gavra_at_work,

    L’Hagdil Torah.

    Because the RBSO said “learn my Torah”.

    And this way the Olam knows the issues involved, whether they use it or not.

    I appreciate your opening this thread, and your reasons for doing so.

    Unfortunately, some people seem to feel that if someone expresses an opinion in halacha, it’s just to degrade anyone who disagrees or follows a different opinion.

    #740152

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Daas Yochid:

    Thank you.

    PY: Not where I live, the poles are too high to make fixing doable. Also Rashi says “Ir Shemtzuyan Bah”, not “rechov”. Look it up for yourself on E-daf.

    Note: The Rashi I quoted is 6A, not 6B.

    #740153

    avi e
    Participant

    @ Pashuteh Yid

    Often the wire does go directly over the top of the pole. Sometimes, however it does not; instead, it goes on the side of the pole or on the crossbar. Therefore, in order to create tzuros ha’pesach, you need to have a lechi that comes directly underneath the wire. An excellent sefer on this is Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhoffer’s “The Contemporary Eruv: Eruvin in Major Metropolitan Areas”.

    #740154

    metrodriver
    Member

    Daas Yochid; We have to thank GAW for opening this thread and thereby showing (Indirectly) what a Talmid Chacham he really is. Some people (especially the ladies) can’t keep up with the terminology. (It almost prompted me to open another (Sub)-thread.). But there is one point in your post that we should all strive to follow. Namely. That if I follow the Daas Torah of one particular Godol, I should still respect the opinions of the other Torah Scholars. Same goes for Chassidus. Everyone can follow any Chassidic Rebbi at the same time respecting all of the others. This would be a major contribution towards Shalom and would, hopefully bring Moshiach closer.

    #740155

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Daas Yochid; We have to thank GAW for opening this thread and thereby showing (Indirectly) what a Talmid Chacham he really is.

    Good point.

    Some people (especially the ladies) can’t keep up with the terminology. (It almost prompted me to open another (Sub)-thread.).

    You’re right, but in fairness, I can’t follow the makeup and hair threads either 🙂

    Actually, I think it’s good that people should know (both men and ladies) that many of the issues in which we get so caught up in the “politics” are actually complicated halachic issues.

    But there is one point in your post that we should all strive to follow. Namely. That if I follow the Daas Torah of one particular Godol, I should still respect the opinions of the other Torah Scholars. Same goes for Chassidus. Everyone can follow any Chassidic Rebbi at the same time respecting all of the others. This would be a major contribution towards Shalom and would, hopefully bring Moshiach closer.

    !???

    #740156

    charliehall
    Participant

    “According to the Mishna B’rurah’s calculation, there is a slight majority who hold that 600k is necessary for a r’shus harabbim. “

    Rav Ovadia Yosef did a similar calculation:

    http://erub.org/hakham%20ovadia.htm

    If 600K daily *on a single street* is necessary there are no public domains today. I’ve seen the traffic counts.

    #740157

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Charlie,

    Thanks for your post; I see I had a typo; according to M.B. a slight majority hold that 600k is not necessary for a rh”r.

    Unfortunately, I can’t follow your link (filter glitch). Does Chacham Ovadiah agree or disagree with the M.B.?

    #740158

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    It is a Yesh Omrim in SA that you need 600K (345:7).

    MB also brings there not to be Moche on those who are somech on that Yesh Omrim. (touching on metrodriver)

    Also see comments there regarding 600K on the road itself (which he seemingly rejects) vs. 600K around.

    #740159

    charliehall
    Participant

    Daas Yochid,

    He counted 7 who do not require 600,000; 12 who do.

    #740160

    charliehall
    Participant

    There was an eruv in Warsaw in the 1930s. Anyone know who the posek was and what opinions they relied upon?

    #740161

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Charlie,

    Thanks.

    R’ Menachem Ziemba Zt”l H”yd?

    #740162

    MDG
    Participant

    To see a list of the poskim (Rishonim) who do/don’t require 600,000, see the BY on the Tur.

    Tosafos asks an interesting question. How do we get the number 600,000? After all that was just the men in the Midbar? The answer is that is the number the Torah gave us, so we use that number.

    #740163

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    gavra-at-work,thanks for the mature thread !!

    May I say at the outset that ,in past times in cities throughout europe, there was never a problem because there was not one street that was sixteen amos wide. If you ever visit Europe and go to the old centers, you will see that the streets were always narrow- never wide (like the Old city in Yerushalaim).Also, not one street was ever “mefulosh”-going straigth across the city -or at least having both entrance and exit lined up. The problem arose in the large squares and in the new cities. This is where the hetter of the 600,000 arose- if the other freeing details were absent. The later Poskin througout Europe took the view that we need “shshim ribui” to make a full reshus horabim and every city in europe had an eiruv,including vilna, i think! until the twentieth century, there was barely a city in the world that had six hundred thousand together- (remember, they must pass in one day!)and so ,virtually every city had an eiruv. Today, in cities like new york and london, this problem has arisen. By and large,however, it seems that the majority of later poskim held the view that you need six hundred thousand. BTW- there were many,many rabbonim in Warsaw-not only R’menachen Zembe HYD who, by the way, did not occupy a pulpit.

    Today, of course,

    #740164

    charliehall
    Participant

    Rabbi of Berlin,

    Warsaw had a population of over 600,000 before 1900. (Russian Empire Census of 1897 said 626,000.)

    #740165

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    charliehall- you (almost) prove my point. The vast majority of cities (and villages) were small. Only very few cities had a population large enough to bring this question into play. And remember that those 600,000 had to be in ONE place during that day. That clearly would be the requisite condition. It is highly unlikely that even in Warsaw, ALL the population passed through one city fare during one day. Today, of course, it is more prevalent in the world’s largest cities and this is why in New York, London and others, the eiruv is problematic and relies upon other kulos.

    #740166

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    David 1999 said:

    I believe David is talking about Halachic Mechitzos that exist in some cities, like rivers, than can be used for an Eruv.

    My understanding is that there are areas in brooklyn near Coney Island that use this concept.

    And PBA is correct that the MB says that if possible, not to be somech on 600K.

    #740167

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    AviE, are you a talmid of Rabbi Bechhofer? What is his background in these inyanim?

    #740168

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I believe David is talking about Halachic Mechitzos that exist in some cities, like rivers, than can be used for an Eruv.

    I’m not sure which mechitzos he’s referring to; maybe tzuras hapesach?

    Either way, If I understand PBA’s point correctly, he’s saying that if we consider it a r’shus harabim, mechitzos don’t help.

    I believe that this part of the discussion took place in the kosher Subway thread.

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/kosher-subway/page/5#post-207059

    #740169

    david1999
    Member

    gavra_at_work:

    #740170

    david1999
    Member

    Pashuteh Yid:”The 600k according to Rav Moshe’s chiddush is the number of people living in the city. Most people understand it as the number of people traveling through the street in question.

    I think the language seems to be difficult according to Reb Moshe. Shishim Ribu bokekin bo seems to imply movement.

    One other question I have in general is why the requirement for lechis on utility poles. Why does the pole itself not serve as the lechi? The nailing of lechis to the poles is what causes all the eruv fights among the non-religious, etc. Any mevinim here who can explain? I know the wire must be directly over the lechi, but doesn’t that usually happen with the pole itself?”

    The language of the Shulchan Aruch is difficult according to Rav Moshe because there is no mention of a population of 3,000,000, and twelve mil by twelve mil.

    Because of tzuras hapesach min hatzad.

    #740171

    david1999
    Member
    #740172

    david1999
    Member

    charliehall:

    Actually Rav Ovadia shlita in his Yabia Omer (9:33) mentions seven who oppose the criterion of shishim ribo and over thirty who accept the criterion.

    #740174

    david1999
    Member

    rabbiofberlin:

    Actually the machlokas between the Bais Ephraim and the Mishkenos Yaakov (which was about two hundred years ago) was regarding this fact, most city streets were over 16 amos wide so they had to rely on shishim ribo. There were cities prior to the 20th century that contained shishim ribo such as London and Paris (if you want a list I can look it up).

    #740175

    david1999
    Member

    Until now the argument was do we rely on the criterion of shishim ribo at all. Since you agree that shishim ribo is dependent on a street and not a city there is no reshus harabbim today. No street would meet this requirement. Moreover there are additional reasons to allow an eruv such as mechitzos, which is not a kula at all.

    #740176

    charliehall
    Participant

    “And remember that those 600,000 had to be in ONE place during that day. That clearly would be the requisite condition. It is highly unlikely that even in Warsaw, ALL the population passed through one city fare during one day. Today, of course, it is more prevalent in the world’s largest cities and this is why in New York, London and others, the eiruv is problematic and relies upon other kulos.”

    This is not true. The ONLY place in New York City that has 600,000 people in one day is Penn Station, which is indoors. And even that is misleading, because that is the passenger count: Most of those passengers actually are double counted because they arrive in the morning and return home in the evening. 600,000 people is an enormous number.

    #740177

    charliehall
    Participant

    “No street would meet this requirement.”

    The busiest “street” in New York is the George Washington Bridge, which is used by about 300,000 vehicles a day. The majority are single-occupancy vehicles and many of those are counted twice because they are daily commuters.

    #740178

    charliehall
    Participant

    More on the George Washington Bridge: It has fourteen lanes and still isn’t anywhere close to having 600,000 people. Ordinary surface streets simply don’t have the capacity to have 600,000, even theoretically.

    #740179

    charliehall
    Participant

    I tried to calculate how large an area this is. Assuming a mil is 2000 amot, by the most stringent opinion that would be not more than 4000 feet. Therefore 12 mil would be 48,000 feet, or 9.09 miles. 12 mil by 12 mil would therefore be 82.64 square miles. The entirety of Brooklyn is 96.9 square miles, with 2.5 million people. So by that logic Rav Moshe would permit an eruv in Brooklyn. Manhattan has far fewer people.

    What am I missing?

    #740180

    charliehall
    Participant

    “There were cities prior to the 20th century that contained

    shishim ribo such as London and Paris “

    Manhattan had > 600,000 people before 1860; Brooklyn (still an independent city) around 1880; Chicago by 1890.

    #740181

    charliehall
    Participant

    Just looked up the daytime population of Manhattan: 2,874,003 according to the US Census Bureau. If Rav Moshe z’tz’l required 3,000,000 to disqualify an area for an eruv, Manhattan would not be disqualified.

    #740182

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Charlie: Do you know how many people drive on the major roads in NY, like the FDR or the BQE. It may be more than the GWB even though the GWB is denser, because they are longer and most people don’t drive the entire length.

    I tried googling, but I’m not good enough at it.

    #740183

    david1999
    Member

    charliehall –

    Rav Moshe did not object to an eruv in Manhattan because of its population, since it was encompassed by mechitzos. There were ancillary reason such as shitos haRashba and his chiddush regarding delasos on the bridges.

    #740184

    david1999
    Member

    charliehall: “Manhattan had > 600,000 people before 1860; Brooklyn (still an independent city) around 1880; Chicago by 1890.”

    I know that there are other cities as well. I believe that Bombay had more than shishim ribo and I remember that some say Rome had in the time of the Mishnah at least shishim ribo, but I have to look it up.

    #740185

    charliehall
    Participant

    david,

    The US census estimate for the daytime population of Brooklyn is 2,231,776, which is *smaller* than the resident population. That “someone” misled Rav Moshe.

    #740186

    charliehall
    Participant

    popa,

    The NY State Department of Transportation has a new traffic data viewer! Formerly you had to page through volumes of numbers to get the information you wanted, and to know the unpublished route numbers for some major roads. The busiest part of the BQE (between the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel and the Prospect Expressway) gets about 170,000 vehicles/day and the busiest part of the FDR Drive (Upper East Side) about 180,000 vehicles/day. Neither have much bus traffic. Those two roads just don’t have enough lanes to handle enough traffic to get up to 600,000.

    The Lincoln Tunnel gets about 115,000 vehicles a day, and unlike every other major highway, many of them are buses. But remembering that most of those are commuters who are double counted it is doubtful that even it would have 600,000. And it is really three separate roads, not one. (Three tunnels, each with its own approach roads on the Manhattan side.)

    #740187

    charliehall
    Participant

    I’m surprised that nobody has brought up the issue of sechirat reshut.

    #740188

    charliehall
    Participant

    The busiest section of the Long Island Expressway is right near Kew Gardens Hills, just east of the Van Wyck Expressway, with about 185,000 vehicles a day. And you can carry across it on Shabat!

    #740189

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Charlie:

    Cool. Thanks.

    Now, do we only count the people in a specific area, or does the whole length of the road combine?

    #740190

    AZ
    Participant

    For the sake of the OP

    The oilam has left out 50% of the disucssion i.e. Asi Rabbim umivatli mehcitzta.

    In discussion on the topic of the halachic feasability of city wide eruvin the two central questions are

    1. Definition of R”H

    2. Asi Rabim on a tzuras Hapesach

    #740191

    david1999
    Member
    #740192

    david1999
    Member

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