November 9, 2014 12:21 am at 12:21 am #614189richashuParticipant
Am I the only one that sees the clear and obvious parallel between the modern day zionist vs Haredi debate in regards to Har Habayis as mirroring the debate that the baryonim had with the Perushim during the Roman Seige before the Bais Hamikdosh was destroyed? During those times the Baryonim, the nationalist ones, felt that we as Jews should stand up for ourselves and fight the Romans, while the Perushim felt that we should not stoke a conflict with the Romans. It was pretty clear from that Gemara who was right in that debate and waht the outcome was of the Baryonims actions. Is there anyone else who feels that this is a repeat of history?November 9, 2014 1:05 am at 1:05 am #1041008JosephParticipant
richashu: +1. I completely agree with you.November 9, 2014 1:17 am at 1:17 am #1041009ShalomMember
I’ve been saying this for yearsNovember 9, 2014 1:19 am at 1:19 am #1041010ShalomMember
Those fools are putting Jewish lives in jeopardy thanks to their incitement of the Arabs in East Jerusalem.November 9, 2014 1:38 am at 1:38 am #1041011frumnotyeshivishParticipant
I am bothered by the confusion of the issues. There’s a halachic issue and a political issue.
It would seem to me, that if this discussion would be about davening at the kosel, all but some neturei karta-like people would say something like “bleep” the arabs.
Which moves us on the the halachic issue. I am unlearned in this area and have no direct opinion as to whether to risk relying on heteirim here other than to encourage all to ask their rabbi their halachic questions.November 10, 2014 12:15 pm at 12:15 pm #1041014northwardbMember
I do not think the historical analogy is so clear-cut.
However, there is a mindset on the part of some who champion going up to Hat Habayit that scorns anyone who won’t go up to Har Bayit (and won’t join them in poking their opponents in the eye) as some kind of Galut-mentality weaklings who kowtow to the goyim. Rabbonim who oppose going up to Har Bayit (including some very notable Zionist rabbonim) are simply ignored.
A friend of mine goes up to Har Habayit on occasion. But he told me that he goes to daven, not to make a point, and that he sees his visits to Har Habayit as very personal & very private and nobody else’s business. I contrast this with the parade of politicians to Har Habayit who go not to commune with Borei Olam but to make a point, to get their names in the headlines and bolster their political standing among whatever constituency they cater to, and burden the police who must allocate resources (that could be used elsewhere, say, in the war against crime) to protect them.
The gratuitous, triumphalist let’s-rub-the-Arabs’-noses-in-it aspect of it reminds me of those Protestant Orangemen in northern Ireland who periodically march through some completely Catholic neighborhood to mark some medieval battle in which the Catholics were routed. Ugh.November 10, 2014 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #1041015DaMosheParticipant
I don’t think it’s the same. As frumnotyeshivish said, there are two parts to this – halachic and political. If your Rav holds it’s assur to go up, then don’t! But there are many big Rabbonim who hold that with the proper preparations, you can go on certain parts of the Har HaBayis. If you follow one of those Rabbonim, there is no reason not to go. Obviously you shouldn’t shop around for a heter!
The political question is a different one. My personal belief is that the Arabs claim it incites violence, but they’re really just looking for an excuse. If it wasn’t this, it would be something else. They want to kill Jews, plain and simple.November 10, 2014 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #1041016Avi KParticipant
There is no analogy. This is a halachic debate with major poskim on both sides. Most opinions turn around the question of whether or not there are areas where a tamei met can definitely walk and whether those who go can keep the halachot of moreh hamikdash. Whether or not we should “provoke” Moslems (as if our very existence is not already a “provocation) is a political and military question and thus the legitimate purview of politicians and military leaders.
Frumnotyeshivish is correct. When the British tried to pressure Rav Kook and Rav Sonnenfeld into conceding that the Kotel belongs to the Arabs both steadfastly refused. BTW, according “Ish al HaHoma”, when Rav Sonnenfeld was asked why he used Shaar Shechem to enter the Old City he said “kibush Eretz Yisrael”.November 10, 2014 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #1041017richashuParticipant
Halacha and politics have a way to get intertwined. Today, just as in the times of the Baryonim, there were Halachic authorities that ruled in favor of either side. I am positive that no one ever made a political claim, without some sort of halachic backing.
If halacha and politics were so clearly distinct, you wouldnt have the halachik issue of whether ascending to the Har Habayis split almost perfectly down political lines.November 10, 2014 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #1041018tzviki16Member
kahana was right!November 10, 2014 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #1041019rabbiofberlinParticipant
It is impossible to equate an event of two thousand years ago, of which we only have a fraction of knowledgde to today. BTW, when Bar Kochba started his uprising some eighty yeards later, the Tanoim of that genaration supported him wholeheartedly, so one cannot compare events,let alone something that is happening two thousand years later.As some posters have written, there are two issues here, the halachic one, upon which there certainly are different valid opinions , and the political one. Politically, it is imperative that we assert Jewish sovereignty over every inch of Jerushalaim and Jehuda Veshomron. To forbid visits to the har habayit wold only be the firat step to giving up sovereignty obver Eretz Yisroel.November 10, 2014 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #1041020northwardbMember
tzviki16, you mean, of course, Rav Kahana Mi-Pum-Nahara, the 3rd-4th generation Amora from Bavel, right? Please tell us what he teaches about Har Habayit. Thanks!November 11, 2014 4:35 am at 4:35 am #1041021showjoeParticipant
avi k:”Whether or not we should “provoke” Moslems (as if our very existence is not already a “provocation) is a political and military question and thus the legitimate purview of politicians and military leaders.”
to avi k, and all thoses who think that gedolim dont think about political issues when paskening halacha:
a quote from that article:
quotes from that article:
“not to mention they cause terror attacks”
“This leads to hatred”
and on many ywn article about jews on har habis, the article concludes:
“on Sukkos former Israeli President Shimon Peres paid a visit to the Sukka of Maran HaGaon Rav Elyashiv ZATZAL, where Rav Elyashiv called on the President to prevent Jews from visiting Har Habayis, stating it is an act that that is viewed as extremely provocative by the goyim. Maran stated everything possible must be done to avoid a religious war, and the provocateurs are playing with fire.
Maran is quoted as explaining to the president that Halacha forbids going onto Har Habayis but today, it is more than this, it is an act that may lead to a religious war and bloodshed.”
again “stating it is an act that that is viewed as extremely provocative by the goyimstating it is an act that that is viewed as extremely provocative by the goyim”
“it is more than this, it is an act that may lead to a religious war and bloodshed.”
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