October 21, 2010 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #592723
I recently was in the supermarket looking to buy wraps. I found one with a valid hasgocha on it, it also said that the brocha is mezones. I have two questions – A) Does this mean that thw rav hamachsir is the one saying its mezonos, or is it the bal habus that owns the company. (included in shailo A is all products that besides for if the ingredients are koseher there are problems like, yayin nesech on a natrul grape product… So just because it has a OU does it mean its not yayin nesech?) B) Also I happen to know hilchos brochos abit and Its pretty clear that if you are being kovaia seudah even if the substance is made out of apple juice you should be making a homotzie. So lihuneach the bal hachshir is the one stating the product is mezonos. So now that I am disagreeing with him legabey the brocha, does it mean I cant turst his hechser because kilapi me hse doeent know halacha.October 21, 2010 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #703357mghanooniMember
From you post, it seems that the wraps were made from apple juice. That being the case, I don’t see why they should not write that the bracha is mezonot. They are selling you wraps and not the whole seuda.
I think that they assume that you know your shita for keviat seuda and they are not going to pasken for you. Is keviat seuda a subjective amount (until one is full) or an objective amount (weight of 3,4,7, or 22 “eggs”)? How much does one “egg” weigh? Do you include the food eaten with the mezonot or not? I don’t think that they can include that whole discussion on the side of a box of wraps.October 21, 2010 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #703358arcParticipant
A little effort in spelling would make your post readable. sorry.October 21, 2010 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #703359
A wrap may not have tzuras hapas, and if so would not be hamotzi even if you were kovea seuda.October 21, 2010 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #703360
hello99 – Thats not true even if you eat a bunch of cookies to be koveah seudah. you are mechyuv on hamotzei. arc – sorry about the spellingOctober 21, 2010 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #703361apushatayidParticipant
Could you work on the punctuation?October 21, 2010 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #703362
mghooni – I dont know of anyone that eats the wraps just plain, Thus being the case they sholud be more specific because everyone will end up being kovei seudah.October 21, 2010 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #703363chesednameParticipant
the fact it says mezonos doesn’t mean the rav is agreeing with it, although if they had any seichal or guts they would pull the hechsher, for false and misleading information.October 21, 2010 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #703364
I usually try to assume the rav hamachshir is not taking responsibility for the bracha.
For the record, for Ashkenazim:
Bread is hamotzi.
Pizza bagels are hamotzi.
While there are circumstances which could change the above, you may rest assured that the one you are buying is hamotzi.October 21, 2010 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #703365
cookies have tzuras hapas, a wrap is so thin it may not.October 21, 2010 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #703366not IMember
I guess it would be similar to an eiruv. Some people hold by them bichlal, others not at all. So one is under the hashgacha of so-and-so..
Some people are makpid about washing even on ‘mezonos bread’ etc..October 21, 2010 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #703367
hello99 – matza is also thin!October 21, 2010 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm #703368WIYMember
When traveling in the summer months it is very common for one to want to
buy mezonos rolls to avoid washing. However, as will be explained below, these
rolls are not mezonos.
The Shulchan Aruch3 says, (based on the opinion of the Rambam),4 if dough is
kneaded with honey, milk or fruit juice, and the fruit juice is recognizable in the
bread, the beracha on the bread is mezonos. The Rama5 disagrees, and says such
juice or spices, in which case the beracha would be mezonos. The Mishnah Berurah,6 as
well as many other poskim, maintain that the fruit juice, etc has to be most of the
mixture, and one has to actually taste it in the bread in order for the beracha to be
a mezonos.7 Others say that although it does not have to be most of the mixture, it
needs to be a lot.8
has mostly fruit juice then one does not need to taste it in the mixture. However,
Torah is only going according to the opinion of the Shulchan Aruch and not the
to specific kinds of juice none of which are currently used in baking. Thus one
following only one part of that opinion while arbitrarily rejecting the other. That
is an amazing feat more probably the province of jugglers and circus performers
3. 168:7, see Bais Yosef, Bach, Elya Rabbah 14.
4. Hilchos Berochos 3:9.
5. 168:7, see Darchei Moshe 20, Levush 6.
7. Shulchan Aruch Harav 11,Yalkut Yosef 168:12, Chai Moshe page 77.
10. Refer to Mesora 1:pages 32-33.
12. Horav Yisroel Belsky Shlita.
2 | HAlAchicAllY SpeAKiNg
Some claim that the aforementioned reasoning can be extended to mezonos
rolls causing their beracha to be a mezonos.13 However such reasoning is fallacious
and causes thousands of people on a daily basis not to wash and bentch properly,14
since the taste of most items with fruit juice is not significantly different than
that of regular bread. Additionally, people eat the roll in order to have the same
experience as eating regular bread. It is strange to say that it can be called cake
and one can avoid washing by eating this mezonos bread,15 especially since one
is being kovea seuda on it.16 Even Sefardim who follow the opinion of the Mechaber17
should wash and bentch in this situation since one cannot tell the difference
between this bread and other breads.18
Additionally, most apple juice is made from concentrate which does not have
the same status as complete fruit juice, since water is added to reconstitute the
juice.19 Accordingly, the rolls from a bakery that use apple juice from concentrate,
are mostly made with water, and one would be required to wash and bentch
according to everyone.20
14. Horav Yisroel Belsky Shlita as expressed in Mesora 1:page 35, see ibid pages 29-43 for a detailed discussion on
Gavriel Nesuin 2:26:7:footnote 7, Rivevos Ephraim 1:146:1, 3:109, 8:285:page 164, Chut Shuni Shabbos 1:page
47:footnote 80, Pischei Halacha (Michtavim) 28:pages 278-279 quoting the opinion of Horav Chaim Kanievesky
all situations. The Sdei Chemed bercohos 1:10:page 246 says if bread is made not to be kovea seuda on then one would
always eats the roll as a seuda (Horav Yisroel Belsky Shlita, see Mesora 1:page 36). Furthermore, virtually all poskim
16. Horav Yisroel Belsky Shlita, refer to Magen Avraham 168:13, Shulchan Aruch Harav 8, Mishnah Berurah 24,
20. Refer to Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society Spring 1990:page 39:footnote 19.
summer halachos | 3
In conclusion, the practice of giving out mezonos rolls on airplanes and at simchas
rolls cannot co-exist.22 This is even if it says on the wrapper that the beracha is
Fortunate are those hechsherim which do not allow bakeries to make mezonos rolls.
and bentching. However, in reality this is not the din and one must wash and bentch.23
Many poskim say that such rolls should only be eaten during a meal where one has
washed on regular bread.24October 21, 2010 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #703369
I think wraps are hamotzi even if you eat only a little bit.
Am I incorrect?
The only ways I was aware of to get a baked, grain and water mixture, out of hamotzi are:
A. Subsequently cooked in liquid, subject to conditions.
B. Baked with a filling which renders it not a meal food.
C. Dry and brittle like crackers. Or like avim yevaishim.
Wraps are grain and water, are baked, have no filling, are not dry, and are not subsequently cooked.
What would get them out of hamotzi?October 21, 2010 11:16 pm at 11:16 pm #703370
Matza has tzuras hapas, wraps not necesarily. That answers pba as well, it is similar to a crepe or wafer.October 22, 2010 1:03 am at 1:03 am #703371
So hence that the wraper says the wrap was mezonos, and assuming that the baal hamchsir is giving the hasgocha on that as well, Can we trust his hecsher regarding the kashrus (has he lost his chezkas kashrus)?October 22, 2010 1:19 am at 1:19 am #703372Josh31Participant
I doubt kashrus certifying agencies review the packaging writing and pictures at all. They probably just give permission to use their trademark based upon the food content. This time of the year there are candies with both pictures of goblins and reliable kashrus marks.October 22, 2010 5:52 am at 5:52 am #703373
So how can some grubba am haretz that owns the company decide on what bracha to make, and be machsil gantz klal yisrael?October 24, 2010 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #703374Shouldnt be hereMember
here is official OU policy By: Rabbi Yaakov Luban
The OU does not authorize the production or marketing of Mezonos rolls and Mezonos pita by caterers, restaurants, and bakeries. This decision is based on two considerations:
a. A true mezonos roll must have a taste and texture which is significantly different from bread and very similar to cake. Most so-called mezonos rolls do not meet this criteria. The presence of a fruit juice, even when it is the majority of the liquid content, does not automatically render the roll mezonos.
b. Mezonos rolls are generally eaten as part of a meal.. Even if they are true mezonos rolls, when eaten as part of a meal, the bracha may change to Hamotzi.
My friend who spent a lot of time in Toronto told me that in all of Toronto there is only one bakery that sells mezonos rolls and they use so much apple juice you don’t know whether you are eating rolls or apples. The COR airline meals gave a sticker on the rolls advising the counselor either to wash or “enjoy it later”
All the major mainstream Kashruth orgs have websites where this is contact infoOctober 24, 2010 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #703375Shouldnt be hereMember
All the major mainstream Kashruth orgs have websites where there is contact info go ahead them and ask them for their policy.
Why ask a bunch of “innocent” or “ignorant” bystanders?October 25, 2010 3:19 am at 3:19 am #703376
Wafers are not hamotzi because they are “avim yevaishim”. I don’t know what avim means, but yevaishim means dry.
I don’t see how that would apply to wraps.October 25, 2010 3:20 am at 3:20 am #703377
I doubt there is any way this chasidishe hechser has a website!October 25, 2010 3:58 am at 3:58 am #703378
My wraps dont look, taste, or smell like wafers.October 25, 2010 4:26 am at 4:26 am #703379
pba No. Wafers are the vaflatkes etc discussed in the Poskim.October 25, 2010 11:31 am at 11:31 am #703380BP ZaidehMember
true but there is a phone bookOctober 25, 2010 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #703381BP ZaidehMember
THE HAKHEL COMMUNITY AWARENESS BULLETIN
Reviewed by HaRav Yisroel Belsky, Shlita Volume III, Number 3
The purpose of this Bulletin is to alert the public regarding important issues, so that the informed
g. Wraps Over the course of the last year or so, a new food item has become popularized in
and then baking it. Typically, the Wrap is then filled with food, much like a pita. The question that arises is what is the brocha rishona, and by extension what is the brocha achrona on a Wrap? Is the brocha an
absolute borei minei mezonos (akin to a very thin liquid batter dough – see Mishne Berurah, Orach Chayim
168, seif katan 38), or is the Wrap to be treated like Pas HaBa’ah B’Kisnin (akin to the flat bread referred to
in Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chayim 168:7) and would accordingly follows those rules? Or, notwithstanding
that it does not have the typical form or shape of bread, is the brocha always a Hamotzi? In Eretz Yisroel,
where Wraps have not yet been popularized, many Poskim have never seen or heard of a Wrap. Rabbi
Moshe Shternbuch, Shlita, however, who was shown a Wrap, poskened that it should be treated like Pas
HaBa’ah B’Kisnin. Rabbi Yisroel Belsky, Shlita, poskens that the brocha is always Hamotzi, because it is
baked in the same manner as bread, tastes and feels like bread, is made of a heavy, bread-like dough and
serves to fill and satisfy, just as bread does . A person is advised to consult his Rav before partaking of a
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