September 19, 2010 1:58 am at 1:58 am #592382
Is it only proper that a Ben Torah should always have his hat and jacket on in the street or in public?September 19, 2010 1:59 am at 1:59 am #697044so rightMember
Absolutely. Did you ever see Rav Elyashev or Rav Shteinman strolling around without one?September 19, 2010 2:08 am at 2:08 am #697045LAerMember
You know, I always thought that it was urban legend, but I saw a man MOWING HIS LAWN in a hat and jacket – with my own two eyes! – and discovered that some people really don’t go anywhere without them. Anyone else agree that doing these types of activities while wearing a hat and jacket is overkill?September 19, 2010 2:12 am at 2:12 am #697046
Nope. He may have been a Ben Torah, who wouldn’t be seen without one. (Like some people’s American Express card, LOL.)September 19, 2010 2:23 am at 2:23 am #697047Pashuteh YidMember
LAer, I know the fellow.September 19, 2010 2:36 am at 2:36 am #697048Yanky55Member
No- it’s not overkill. It’s nuts.September 19, 2010 2:41 am at 2:41 am #697049aries2756Participant
Yes that is overkill. You do not have to sit in a hat and jacket in your own home, nor in anyone else’s home. I doubt the Rabbonim named sit with their hats on in their own home or even in their own office. There is a time and a place for everything and you need to use your seichel at ALL times. Would you wear your hat and jacket while playing with your kids on the floor, or while feeding them or changing them? Do you wear your hat and jacket when you are eating or do you really just need it for benching?
If a man has his sneakers on and is going for a walk for his health do you think it is appropriate to have a hat and jacket on as he is building up his heart rate? It is kovod Hashem to wear the proper livush, but if you wear the livush at inappropriate times then is it a kovod or a busha?September 19, 2010 2:44 am at 2:44 am #697050Josh31Participant
What defines a “Ben Torah”?
To me such a title implies more than just being a Talmid Chacham, it also requires that his learning drive how he lives.
Perhaps one should have to demonstrate solid learning accomplishment and keeping of Mitzvos for a long period of time before taking such a title.
Giving this title to Bar Mitzvah boys cheapens the title.September 19, 2010 3:34 am at 3:34 am #697051rebdonielMember
The Chofetz Chaim wore overall-type garments when running his store. Chazal most likely wore clothing appropriate to whatever work they were doing in the days of the Gemara. I don’t think wearing clothing inappropriate for an activity or task at hand is meritorius. In fact, it can border on pikuach nefesh- failing to wear protective clothing when doing manual labor, etc., and even baal tashchis- wasteful consumption, as one risks damaging expensive clothing (i.e. suits) if worn during such activities which can be messy. Do you ever see a butcher not wearing a protective white oat or a painter not wearing the right clothing? Mowing a lawn might be different, but it is the same idea.September 19, 2010 3:37 am at 3:37 am #697052
I understand, and don’t disagree with wearing appropriate clothing to work tasks at hand. The issue at hand is more regarding when walking on the street.September 19, 2010 3:42 am at 3:42 am #697053aries2756Participant
If you are talking in general terms walking on the street, then you really do what your father and Rebbeim teach you to do. It is appropriate to show that you are always dressed as if you are standing before the KING, and your appearance elevates you to a higher madreigah always prepared to learn Torah and do mitzvos.
But that doesn’t mean that someone who does not wear and hat and jacket is wrong. I would say that one who does is mehudar.September 19, 2010 3:46 am at 3:46 am #697054☕️coffee addictParticipant
well said aries,
I wholly agreeSeptember 19, 2010 4:06 am at 4:06 am #697055rebdonielMember
When walking on the street, I think it is appropriate to wear full levush, except for when, let’s say, jogging or running for exercise sake.September 19, 2010 5:47 am at 5:47 am #6970582qwertyParticipant
How do we know that Avrom Avinu wore a hat and jacket wherever he went?
Well, it says: Veilech Avrom…
And do you think Avrom Avinu would go anywhere without his hat and jacket?September 19, 2010 5:50 am at 5:50 am #697059
Our Rishonim and Acharonim did not possess black hats and suits with a white shirt. Levush changes with time. A Ben Torah is a Ben Torah, regardless of his levush. And moreover, not every young man or even older man in a suit, black hat, and white shirt, is a Ben Torah by any means. Al tistakeil blkankan…September 19, 2010 5:56 am at 5:56 am #697060
Levush does change with time. Nevertheless each time had its set of levush for Bnei Torah.September 19, 2010 10:28 am at 10:28 am #697062LashonTovMember
Look at pictures from the 1950s. Men always wore hats and jackets in the street.September 19, 2010 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #697063yitzy99Member
Fred Mertz a character of the “I Love Lucy Show”(1950s) always wore a jacket, hat, and tie, even indoors. I guess if someone saw him walking down the street today in Flatbush he might think he was a Ben Torah.September 19, 2010 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #697065
always wore a jacket, hat, and tie, even indoors.
Hmm. I guess it isn’t overkill afterall.September 19, 2010 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #697066mamashtakahMember
Something I’ll always remember from years ago. I was spending Shabbat at Ner Israel in Baltimore, and we came upon Rav Ruderman zt”l walking with one of his talmidim. The Rosh Yeshiva was not wearing a jacket or hat, and he actually apologized to us for seeing him that way. He told us he had not been feeling well.September 19, 2010 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #697067
Thank You for sharing that beautiful story of HaRav Ruderman zt”l. It imparts real ?????? ????????? – always be dressed appropriately with your hat and jacket, but if you see someone without it be dan lkaf zchus that there is a reason he couldn’t do so.September 19, 2010 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #697068Dr. PepperParticipant
I may have posted this before but I’m posting it again.
A shadchan called with a girl who insisted that before I go out with her I have to commit to wearing a hat and jacket 24 hours a day (I guess it was regardless of whether it worked or not).
I answered that I was willing to sleep in a hat and jacket but I refused to wear one in the shower. Is 23 hours and 45 minutes everyday good enough?
Unbelievably the shadchan asked the girl who said that she wasn’t willing to settle for anything less than 24 hours a day.
Oh well, I guess it wasn’t meant to be.September 19, 2010 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #697069ImanonovParticipant
What puzzles me is the fact that nowadays you see many yeshiva bachurim & Kollel jungerleit walking on the street with their hats IN THEIR HAND! What on earth is pshat in that? Anyone with an explanation?September 19, 2010 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #697070John DoeMember
I was in Lowes today, and saw the yuungerleit shlepping lumber for their succas with hats and jackets on!September 19, 2010 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #697071oyveykidsthesedaysMember
show me in halacha where it says there’s a chiyuv to wear an italian style fedora and an american style jacket at all times and i’ll do it. anything to be more jewish……..September 19, 2010 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #697072mexipalParticipant
the reason to carry a hat or jacket in the street is if its a hot day and you still want to show you are a ben torah who wers a hat and jacket in the street.September 19, 2010 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #697073bp13Participant
Dr. Pepper should have said if she wears a sheitel 24 hours a day then maybe, LOLSeptember 19, 2010 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #697074
“Oh well, I guess it wasn’t meant to be. “
Bullet, meet the guy who dodged you!September 19, 2010 10:54 pm at 10:54 pm #697075ImanonovParticipant
Dr Pepper: I presume that she preferred that you didn’t have a shower!September 19, 2010 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #697076yitzy99Member
I wonder if the the hat, white shirt, and jacket worn at all times pose a financial burden on families. The hats are not inexpensive and for a family with a number of young men the costs mount up. And then there is the cost of cleaning the white shirts and jackets. I believe that there is a uniform that Bnei Torah can wear to let everyone know that they are Bnei Torah. It’s called Tzitzit.September 19, 2010 11:10 pm at 11:10 pm #697077
Tzitzis isn’t an external display of our Jewishness, as Jews have always displayed. Weddings are also expensive if you have a number of children.September 20, 2010 12:36 am at 12:36 am #697078Tzadik in our timesMember
Just for the record, Fred Mertz absolutely did NOT “always [wear] a jacket, hat, and tie, even indoors.”September 20, 2010 3:56 am at 3:56 am #697079apushatayidParticipant
Mexipal. Wouldn’t it be easier to just prominently display the receipt?September 20, 2010 4:36 am at 4:36 am #697080cherrybimParticipant
“The Rosh Yeshiva was not wearing a jacket or hat”
Rav Ruderman always wore a homburg and fine kapata while walking, which he did often. In warm weather the homburg and kapata were grey while in cooler weather they were black.September 20, 2010 12:27 pm at 12:27 pm #697081SJSinNYCMember
myfriend, aren’t you supposed to wear your tzitzit strings out?September 20, 2010 12:32 pm at 12:32 pm #697082
SJS, does your husband wear his tzitzis out? If not, does that not answer what you’re getting at?September 20, 2010 1:36 pm at 1:36 pm #697083SJSinNYCMember
He often does.
But he always wears a kippah. That’s pretty visible.September 20, 2010 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #697084Dr. PepperParticipant
bp13 & Imanonov-
I’m jealous I didn’t think of that myself!September 20, 2010 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #697085mw13Participant
My only concern with wearing a hat and jacket all day is that then they lose their status of beged ha’miyuchad li’tefillah. Other than that, I have no real opinion on the matter: is one wants to wear a hat and jacket all day, kol hakavod, and one who doesn’t is certainly not doing anything wrong. I don’t see much of an issue either way.
oy vey kids these days:
“show me in halacha where it says there’s a chiyuv to wear an italian style fedora and an american style jacket at all times and i’ll do it. anything to be more jewish…”
No, there is no halacha that one must wear a hat and jacket all day, and I don’t think anybody is claiming there is. However, there is indeed an inyan to be as “jewish” as possible. We are the mamleches kohanim v’goy kadosh, and we should show our pride at the fact. We know that bnei Yisroel were redeemed from Mitzrayim because they had different clothes, langauge, and names from everybody else: It’s occurred to me more than once that if the criteria for getting out of the current golus was the same, the only ones that would make it would be the Chassdim, the Chareidim, and maybe some of the really Yeshivish…
SJSinNYC: Depends who you ask.September 20, 2010 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #697086bptParticipant
The benchmark we (and when I say we, I mean me and my boys) aim for is to always look like bnei torah. Sometimes, that means a hat and jacket (shul, walking in the street on shabbos / yomtov), sometimes it means wearing long pants when everyone else is wearing short (like bike riding, hiking).
Standing in line at Lowes or Home depot, would mean for the boys to dress like bnei torah, and for me (who wears colored shirts – GASP!)to act in a manner that is consistant with boys who are bnei torah.
Not a direct answer to the quiestion, pehaps, but those are my 2 centsSeptember 20, 2010 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #697087Feif UnParticipant
mw13, it wasn’t that they had different names, language, and clothing – it was that they didn’t change it.
Chassidish levush comes from the dress of the nobles in Europe. Hats and jackets also were adapted from recent culture (although I’m not sure exactly where). Language? Yiddish was adapted mostly from German, with other European languages thrown in. Definitely not Jewish in origin. Names are the only thing that remained mostly the same – and even some names are taken from other sources. The name Gittel comes from German for “good”. I recently heard from someone named Shira who was told by R’ Chaim Kanievsky to switch her name to Sarah, as Shira is not really a Jewish name – it’s just a Hebrew word that people decided to use as a name. Many names we use now have no basis in Judaism.September 20, 2010 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #697088cherrybimParticipant
“..aren’t you supposed to wear your tzitzit strings out?”
I once asked a world renowned Rav and Tzadik why he didn’t wear his tzitzis out. His response was that he was not on the madreiga to do it.September 20, 2010 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #697089dakruiseMember
hat and jackets are great and are a symbol of what a ben torah looks like today, you wouldn’t find a big time rabbi or kollel guy davening or walking around in the street but if its not practical situation then i won’t e.g. if it’s 90 degrees outside or if the shul is too stuffy. wearing a hat and jacket while mowing the lawn is ridiculous and you most certainly not find a rabbi mowing the lawn and he probably wouldn’t wear a hat and jacket if he would mow by himself.September 20, 2010 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #697090apushatayidParticipant
About 30 years ago, when my father and I were looking into a mesivta, we were told about one in particular, “the guys in this yeshiva are so “greasy” (is that term used anymore?) they dont take off their hat and jacket, even in the bathroom. I thought it was weird then, and I still think it is weird that one would mow his lawn wearing his hat and jacket. I’m not sure what the guys in this mesivta do in 2010.September 20, 2010 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #697091
Yidden always dressed different than goyim. And a Yid could always be identified by his dress on the street.September 21, 2010 2:26 am at 2:26 am #697092mw13Participant
Feif Un: It makes no difference what the origin of an article of clothing is; the point is what it is associated with today. Today if somebody would wear a bekeshah and shtreimel on Purim I would imagine most people would assume that he is dressing up as a chassid, not as a 16th century polish noble. The idea is that we should have a unique mode of dress and language, one that nobody else uses today; not that we need to build our own ones from scratch. I have heard that the mogen david was not originally a Jewish symbol: does that mean that it is any less a Jewish symbol today?September 21, 2010 4:39 am at 4:39 am #697093HalelujahMember
Is wearing a hat and jacket on a trip to the zoo in ninety degree weather really more of an honorable thing to do? I think gentiles will consider that a bizarre and quite radical activity, not a respectfeul one. One who dresses nicely, wears a yarmulkah, and ACTS (this is a big one, and it counts, I see many jewish looking people act in a way I’m ashamed to affiliate myself with them)like a mensch, isn’t that a jew?!
Don’t worry, his modest and respectful dresscode and behavior will definitely be noticed and linked to his judaism when everyone else is dressed for the beach and yelling like they’re on a roller coaster…September 21, 2010 4:42 am at 4:42 am #697094
It is a very honorable thing to do. (Though not to say one who doesn’t do so, is less than honorable.) Who cares what the goyim think. They hate us for just wearing a yarmulka.September 21, 2010 4:59 am at 4:59 am #697095
R’ Chaim Kanievsky to switch her name to Sarah, as Shira is not really a Jewish name – it’s just a Hebrew word that people decided to use as a name. Many names we use now have no basis in Judaism. “
I wonder what he would say about Gila, Rina, Ditzah, and Chedvah!
Still, it’s better to take a word from the Torah and call someone’s name by that word, than to use the German word for that same word. “Gittel” is Tova, and Tova is LOSHON HAKODESH, not Gittel, in spite of what some of us may think. The fact that a lot of Torah was learned and disseminated in Yiddish, as well as Yiddish being a unifying language for European Jewry, is not as compelling as it once was, IMO, as a great great deal of Torah is now learned in ENGLISH, the new Yiddish, and most Jews in the USA today speak English. Just ask anyone who learns with an Artscroll Sefer, if English has not become their “heilige” language. Perhaps people should start naming their children Brian, instead of Boruch, by the same logic that compelled their grandparents to opt for a German/Yiddish name versus Loshon Kodesh. Just a thought…
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