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Phyllis, level of what? You seem to be the one who is judging now.
“I don’t have that same need, but I can see that it is very important to others.”
so you dont mind if your son wore ripped jeans falling off and a sleeveless t shirt with flip flops and a du rag? dress does matter oomis whether or not you convince yourself it doesnt. Yidden dress like Yidden and goyim dress like goyim. period. when you start dressing like a goy you start acting like a goy. if you think a bachur (even an excellent one) is going to act the same wearing the above mentioned outfit as his bachur outfit your wrong
yossiea, pple mistaken chol hamoed with a weekday meant for trips. It is actually a yom tov, and about it is written, that one that treats it lightly has no share in the world to come…(pirkei Avos). I am not saying not to go on trips and to spend the day in shul ( which is not a bad idea), but a little respect means dressing with respect, and I think wearing a hat and jacket is very appropriate.
One thing u cant deny… there are certain behaviors u wouldn’t do in ur hat and jacket that u might do with ur sleeves rolled up…
Wearing a hat and jacket all the time is the uniform of a sociologically identifiable group, the yeshivishe velt. It announces what club they belong to and nothing else. It’s not halacha, there’s no “inyan”,it doesn’t indicate their midos, their level of Torah learning or their spiritual status. It’s just a uniform, like boy scouts. All hassidic groups have their own distinct uniform which separates them from others. There is no value in the uniform itself, it’s solely a means of group-identification.
flatbush27, just because someone is not wearing a hat and jacket, doesn’t mean they’re wearing torn jeans and a tank top.
As for behavior, I’ve seen some really bad behavior from people wearing hats and jackets (and they even go to court in their uniform) so don’t say that the uniform protects you.
onlyemes, when it comes to Yidden “group-identification” is a very big element. It is something we aught to be proud of. The problems arise when we were are not…
Phyllis, that is what a yarmulka is for, right?
“so you dont mind if your son wore ripped jeans falling off and a sleeveless t shirt with flip flops and a du rag?”
Oh please, Flatbush! What on earth would possess you to think that my son dresses that way just because he doesn’t go around 24/7 in “The Levush?” That is pure hysteria speaking, and does not even merit a response, but I felt compelled to, anyway. If my son ever dressed like that, it would clearly be Purim! Why do people who express the same opinion you just did, seem to feel it is an either-or situation? Have you never heard of the shvil hazahav?
The clothing manner that you prize so highly was once SOLELY the manner of dress of non-Jews. The fact that Jews wear it now, does not make it anything less than what it once was. I am so tired of hearing how important it is for a Yeshivah bachur to dress this way or he is not going to behave as well as he should. An awful lot of very frum-looking men dressed in the so-called proper manner have been found in extremely compromising and disgusting places committing unbecoming actions. I said it before and I will say it again – it has to do with what is inside, not what is on the outside.
It also sounds just a teensy bit arrogant to make comments no matter WHO is making them, that suggest that a person is not on a high enough level compared to another, based solely on what he is wearing. That is an offensive and divisive belief, and after 120 years, I sincerely hope that Hashem sets us all straight as to whether or not He ever felt that way. I wonder if Hillel Hazakein would agree with you. He was as poor as poor can be, and I doubt he owned “the levush.” His eagerness to learn Torah and impart it to others had nothing whatsoever to do with his clothing.
yoss: the uniform is not always going to protect. unfortunately i think we have all seen guys wearing black pants and white shirts not acting the way they should. but any Rebbi will tell you dress does matter. why do you think our yeshivas have uniforms?
wheres my other post
so i guess it wasint posted for some reason. (What wasn’t posted? YW Moderator-72)
oomis: you still never really answered the question. would you mind at all if your son dressed like that on a normal regular day? according to you he would act the same so what would be the problem. for some reason apparently you believe Yidden dont have to dress like Yidden and you would see no problem if we dressed like goyim. correct me if im wrong and i am in no way trying to be mean or nasty.
guess i thought i hit the send post button and didnt before. sorry mod72
flatbush27, you seem to believe that if someone is not wearing a hat and jacket they are wearing torn jeans and a ripped t-shirt.
That’s a problem on your end, not on mine or oomis’.
Furthermore, it’s a good thing pictures from Europe were black and white. Had they had color photographs, you’d be shocked silly at the color/style of yeshiva clothing.
yeah he’s right. did you ever see what they looked like in slobodka? check out the pictures in the reb yaakov book. (i think it’s that one)
it doesnt matter how silly and dumb the clothing may look. look at the chassidim. im just trying to point out that we dress like Yidden and not like goyim and i think clothing and appearance tells alot about a person but not in every case. i definitely dont think if your not wearing a white shirt your wearing jeans and a tee. i would see no problem if they took off their hat and jacket on a hot day but why is it a problem if they leave it on when the only excuse oomis has is she cant answer her shiksa neighbor. if they want to shvitz thats their issue unless they have horrible BO which may trigger s chillul Hashem. also if they didnt wear a white shirt and black pants while playing ball would definitely not be an issue for me as would be the case for many more instances.
“im just trying to point out that we dress like Yidden and not like goyim.. “
I guess Fred Mertz (I Love Lucy Show) was a frum Yid. In every episode he is seen in his apartment wearing a white shirt and tie. He even wore a hat when he went out!
not every, yitzy! (ok, that doesn’t make him a goy… just not so frum 😉 like the rest of the world…)
I’m surprised there are people saing there IS a problem with wearing a hat & jacket, at least in Lakewood & Flatbush. If they (non-frum) can have dreadlocks with caps, Amish hats, and Muslim Burkas all over the NYC area, why not a Stetson (or a look-a-like, as popularized in modern culture by Jack Abramoff).
On the other side, those who don’t want to wear a hat may feel the need to “keep up with the Cohenses (sic)” regarding religiousity (or your child may not get a shidduch), as hats have practicaly become a must-wear as not wearing one is Bad For Shidduchim.
There is no reason for anyone to feel forced to do something that is not even a minhag, let alone a halacha. That however, is the sorry state of our society (which B”H still follows Torah & Mitzvos), which has the crisis’ (Shidduchim & Yeshivos/Tuition/OTD) that force us into uniformity.
So be it. At least here B”H I can still sit next to my wife in the front half of the bus.
and obama wears a white shirt and jacket. guess hes a frum Yid.
gaw: so you oppose seperate seating on buses
Of course Pres. Obama is Frum, he even is involved in Kiruv, as he invited non-frum people to his Pesach Seder 🙂
flatbush, you sure he only wears white?
when I received the Moderators handbook I noticed it had a clause specifically relating to dress code during Moderation.
without giving out to much info
section Ches, Dress Code; sub-section aleph: “…a white dress shirt, black suit and/or navy suit (pin stripes optional), polished shoes, black/blue socks, polished shoes, tie and hat…” sub-section beis “…e’Shabbos/Yom Tov and m’Shabbos/Yom Tov french cuffs are mandatory…”
forget it. i’ll NEVER get to be a moderator… i’d have to log off and shower every 15 minutes…
what about mod-55 then?
“oomis: you still never really answered the question. would you mind at all if your son dressed like that on a normal regular day? according to you he would act the same so what would be the problem. for some reason apparently you believe Yidden dont have to dress like Yidden and you would see no problem if we dressed like goyim. correct me if im wrong and i am in no way trying to be mean or nasty. “
I thought my answer had been as plain as day. I specifically said that if I ever saw him dressed that way, I would know it has to be Purim, because he otherwise would NEVER dress like that. He does not like to look like a slob, and that has nothing to do with frumkeit, but everything to do with wanting to look neat and presentable. And when he does dress up on Purim, he never loses sight of who he is. He makes sure to be up early for the minyan, calls all his rebbeim to wish them a chag sameach, and helps to serve and clean up at the seudah. He could be wearing a convict uniform, but he behaves like a Ben Torah. And FTR, what YOU believe constitutes “dressed like Yidden” and what I believe it to be, are not necessarily the same. That does not make either of us correct.
Ultimately a frum Yid ideally dresses in clean, tzniusdig clothing, whatever the style may be.
Lately I’m feeling that I’m not living in the heart of a frum neighborhood in Brooklyn, but rather I’m in a medieval European town. The men, this their flat, round black hats, hoods which look like enormous cowls, and long black overcoats make me feel that I’m among monks hurrying to perform their service. Ironic, isn’t it?
I think there are a few issues here…
1) I don’t see why it should bother the next person if they see someone wearing a suit and a hat… What’s it it you? Let them be hot- it was obviously their conscious choice. Goyim have seen Yidden, they know this is the way some dress, and they are pretty accepting of it.. (It doesn’t bother them) I think it bothers their Jewish “brethren” (for lack of a better word) Who don’t necessarily wear the same levush who have more of an problem, and who are more sensitive. –> Which gets me to my second issue.
2) I believe that people who see these men wearing hats and jackets out of the beis medrash or shul, don’t necessarily have their best interests at heart. What’s bothering them is not that they look hot and they feel bad that they are wearing a few extra layers. They are self conscious that they themselves choose not to dress that way (not making a statement that they should or shouldn’t) and that because these men are making a statement, they feel that it reflects poorly on them and their level of frumkeit. The problem is when people think that the hat and jacket creates the ben torah… And that if you are missing the hat and the jacket then you can’t possible be a ben torah (Which is not true)
People see it as these men are looking to be superior and better because they are dressing in a certain way. (Which my or may not be true depending on the person)
But the most important thing is that however you dress YOU ARE DRESSING TO IMPRESS THE SHECHINA, NOT THE SHECHUNA and as “heilige” as you want to dress on the outside, make sure that your insides match…
Just my 2-sense
Take it for what its worth..
But, I feel like worrying about the hat and jacket isn’t what’s going to make moshiach come sooner, rather we should be working on becoming better and growing in our Yiddishkeit, and be accepting of other Yidden who are being Ovdei Hashem, but maybe not the exact way as you.
Ironically, I was at Chuck E. on Pesach. However, maybe it is true that it’s not a place to be on Chol Hamoed Pesach. Maybe if you are in a place where a hat and jacket look so incongruous, it’s not the attire that is a problem but the place you are at. An extreme example would be a movie theater. Sometimes there are a lot of non-Jews in CEC and maybe a hat and jacket type shouldn’t be there mixing with the goyim.
oomis- how many is an awful lot of men dressed in the so-called proper manner…? Although the numbers of such people are unfortunately growing it is still negligible. What about men who dress like your son? Are there none of them in unsavory places? There are bad apples in every lot.
outoftowner: While I agree with you that the reason it bothers the less yeshivish crowd when the more yeshivish crowd wears hats and jackets the reason is not because they feel bad that they are so hot.
I do not however believe that the reason it bothers them is because they dont wear it and they deep down feel they should, rather I believe the reason is because when a nonjew sees jews all over wearing the black hats and jackets and white shirt black pants, that is what they come to associate jews with, and since it looks really weird (and dont tell me its not because walking around in 90+ weather in a hat and jacket looks weird) they are afraid that nonjews may look at them the same just because they are jewish (and the less yeshivish usually have more interaction with nonjews than the more yeshivish). Im not really that good at putting down my thoughts into word so this probably didnt come out right. Oh well.
Outoftowner- You said it so well, the bottom line is don`t judge other people let Hashem judge us.
If the definition of tznius is to dress in a way that does NOT attract attention, then “the Yeshivishe levush” is counterproductive,a s is chassidic garb, which originally came from the goyim, too.
Joyous, there ARE bad apples in every lot, but when they clearly look like frum Jews, it is FAR, FAR worse. I cringe when I see a news report and there are frum-looking Jews on it, in case one of them may have committed a chillul Hashem (which is often the case, unfortunately).
I agree with Out-of-Towner (you said it very well), however I don’t feel that I or my family members should be dressing the way the Yeshivish crowd does. We dress properly, and I have no aspirations to look yeshivish. I want to look menschlech. I truly DO feel uncomfortable physically for someone who is dressed in a way that has to be making him shvitz inside.
It doesnt bother me when people wear hats and jackets in 90 degree weather, I just do think it looks stupid.
If taking off your hat and jacket (especially in a situation that is not relating to davening or learning) makes you throw off halacha, then your Judaism is only suit deep. To me that is very sad.
I laugh at the fact that non-Jewish clothing is the symbol of “Jewish garb” – look back at WHY the chasidim started wearing the clothing of Polish royalty and you may enjoy the joke with me.
joyous, i really agree with you that if you are in a place where a hat a jacket seem out of place, it might not be an appropriate place for you to be. I think that on Chol Hamoed thats the appropriate attire for a man.
yankdownunder- just remember Hashem judges us the way we judge others
oomis: “I don’t feel that I or my family members should be dressing the way the Yeshivish crowd does”
I’m not saying you should feel the need to dress that way- The problem comes when people associate a person’s level of frumkeit with accessories they adorn… I wonder if it would bother you if someone felt you were less frum because you weren’t wearing a hat and jacket (not saying you should or shouldn’t- that’s for another thread) I think people see people in hats in jackets in sweltering weather, and maybe think in the back of their minds “Oh, so you think you are better than me because you are wearing a hat and jacket at the zoo in 9o degrees.” Where it may look silly to them, like I said… Who cares, that’s between them and the Ribono Shel Olam… Not you
aussieboy: “reason is not because they feel bad that they are so hot.”
I was being facetious… people said they believed it looked silly to be shvitzing in the zoo in 90+ weather in a hat and jacket– I know they aren’t sympathetic towards how hot they are 😉
SJSinNYC, do u think it looks stupid to wear a skirt instead of shorts in 90 degree weather, well to some pple it may look stupid. Or how about pple that wear knee socks/tights only instead of anklets, does that look stupid? U have to be proud that u are a jew and not worry about “looking stupid”.
I’m not sure why this is such an issue.
I see Jewish guys dressed like Yeshiva guys in places where jeans and a t-shirt are more appropriate, but I don’t think they should lower their “standards” to dress that way just because others do.
Now, I personally may not believe that dressing in black and white and hat makes a person more religious (I don’t think it matters where the dress originated from, it’s the message that it sends to everybody else when Yeshiva guys dress a certain way…)but I do believe that if a person feels that his dressing this way makes them a better person, then all the power to them.
Maybe this is what keeps them mentally religous? Maybe this is their way of reminding themselves that they represent Jews and they must act a certain way in public?
It may make us hot looking at them dressed in this way, but it’s their life and their choices.
I wouldn’t worrry so much about a Chilul Hashem, as long as their behavior is appropriate.
Jewess,
It’s nice to read such a grounded comment.
SJSinNYC, do u think it looks stupid to wear a skirt instead of shorts in 90 degree weather, well to some pple it may look stupid. Or how about pple that wear knee socks/tights only instead of anklets, does that look stupid? U have to be proud that u are a jew and not worry about “looking stupid”.
When there is nothing halachic involved, yes I do think its stupid to add an extra jacket to make you sweat more. At least a hat you could argue is protection from the sun or something…there is a big difference between making sure you are following halacha and following a uniform. So yes, in my opinion, wearing a jacket in 90 degree weather is stupid. If thats what they need to be frum, then great, but its not halachic in nature so its nothing that I am going to look at someone and say “Oh, I respect them for ensuring that they are being stringent in halcha.” I would say that about someone who wore tights in the summer even though its hot because to them its halacha. Do you understand the difference?
And I am proud to be Jewish, but it doesnt mean I have to be proud of non-halachic things other people do.
“I wonder if it would bother you if someone felt you were less frum because you weren’t wearing a hat and jacket (not saying you should or shouldn’t- that’s for another thread) I think people see people in hats in jackets in sweltering weather, and maybe think in the back of their minds “Oh, so you think you are better than me because you are wearing a hat and jacket at the zoo in 9o degrees.”
Of course it would bother me if someone wearing a hat and jacket felt I was not as frum as they because I do not dress that way. I doubt that most other people would be as judgmental. It would bother me, because people in that mindset tend to think my kashrus is less than their own, my religious observance is questionable, and my kids are not frum enough. I have experienced that firsthand when someone more rightwing expressed shock that I knew a certain halacha and could discuss it at length, because, “YOU went to a Yeshivah???” I was wearing a long dark skirt, simple dark long-sleeved shirt and had on a snood. I could not have looked more obviously frum. The judgment was made because I mentioned a certain TV show (some medical drama), so I was already “nisht kosher.”
The second part of your paragraph is correct to an extent. I am sure there are those who feel that way. But it does not mitigate then fact that a person who is dressed like that in sweltering heat is a hatzalah call waiting to happen. That is their prerogative, but it does make me feel very uncomfortable physically to see this.
Up until about the mid 1960’s, people (non-Jews and Jews alike) would “dress up” when going in public. This included going out to shop; or when attending classes in college; or even to a ball game: men would go out in public in their fedoras, dress slacks, jacket and tie; similar for women.
This did not change in hot weather; only the type and thickness of the cloth: Hats were of straw instead of felt; short sleeve shirts; suits were of the lighter seersucker type.
cherrybim, you are correct that standards of dress have changed in the past 50-60 years. However, in those days it was also considered very rude for men to wear hats indoors.
Except for davening, I still don’t think it’s always appropriate to wear a hat indoors, especially when at a shiur and your hat is blocking the view of those behind you…you can’t get much ruder than that.
post of the week (read full argument to appreciate):
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yankdownunder- just remember Hashem judges us the way we judge others
perhaps i missed something from the past 3 pages of insane posts. but isnt it maris ayin to go to chucky chesse? i would love to hear these answers
What hectsher does CC have any way? The question is in my mind is there a problem if my Grandchildren use the Slide and Monkey Bars outside Mickey Dons, would this an example of maris ayin?
insuranceguy,
I’m no posek but I wouldn’t think its maris ayin. Its not a restaurant which happens to have some stuff for kids to play on so they don’t get bored, its mainly an entertainment facility which happens to have a food counter on the side.
gaw: i didnt ask in the case of if it would cause a chillul Hashem although to stand up for what the Gedolim say (whether you believe the Gedolim said it…)then it wouldnt be a chillul Hashem in front of the anti frum zionists. so lets ‘forget’ about the Gedolim, and lets say it doesnt cause a chillul Hashem then do you oppose it
oomis: its getting comical how you are always bashing the ‘frummy black hatters yeshivish type’ that they are so judgemental on you. you are so judgemental on us! you think we are all judging you! you stereotype all of us as if we all look down upon you because you dont fit the ‘mold’ that others do! give the benefit of the doubt to people. maybe her comment came out differently as wanted and she didnt mean that or you took it the wrong way.
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