Hats and jackets in the street

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  • #1562836

    New Yorker at heart
    Participant

    I am writing this post because I am overcome by this terrible trend hitting bnei Torah and Rebbiem,

    Not that long ago all yungerleit and rabbeim had this inborn shtultz to never walk in the streets without a hat and jacket ,

    Just like a soldier in the army has to wear his uniform at all times when he is on duty or else he will get court marshaled,
    So too yungerliet and rabbeim who are on duty 24/7- 365 should have to wear their hats and jackets whenever they step out into the street.

    Where has our kavod HaTorah fallen to????

    #1563157

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Why do you confuse dress style with kavod hatorah? A yeshiva bochur can be dressed in clean and well-fitting pants and shirt with a kipa and project a considerably more respectful image than some of the guys dressed in rumpled dark suits and smoking etc.

    #1563156

    laskern
    Participant

    This has caused that people don’t daven with a hat and a jacket because they daven like they go on the street, see MB O”CH 91:12.

    #1563141

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    What about trolls:
    how often are they on duty?
    do they have to wear a uniform or face court martial?

    #1563291

    DovidBT
    Participant

    Just like a soldier in the army has to wear his uniform at all times when he is on duty or else he will get court marshaled,
    So too yungerliet and rabbeim who are on duty 24/7- 365 should have to wear their hats and jackets whenever they step out into the street.

    What about the Nazis? They wore uniforms. Are you saying that we should be like the Nazis?

    #1563491

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    In europe , unless you were a rebbe or rosh yeshiva, buchurim did not dress in a hat in the street. Some may have worn jackets in the cold but on a hot summer day they generally did not.

    #1563506

    Joseph
    Participant

    In Europe no frum male Bar Mitzvah or older would walk outside without his hat and jacket. The same was the case, and still is in many places, in America.

    #1563527

    Geordie613
    Participant

    Just popping in for a moment to say this; I heard the following in about 2002 from Rav Yaakov Yehuda Salomon, son of Rav Matisyahu Shlit”a. His father said that the change for bochurim and yungerleit to stop wearing hats and jackets in the street happened so fast, that we couldn’t catch the trend and reverse it. It was just a few years and the street looked different.
    I think he was talking about Gateshead, but could be Lakewood as well.

    #1563560

    Redleg
    Participant

    Most people have seen pre-war photos of bachurim from Mir, Slabodka and other yeshivos. Note that most are clean shaven and are wearing light colored jackets and hats in the fashion of the time. Yes, bachurim wore jackests and hats in der gass and were indistinguishable from the hamon am.

    #1563617

    Joseph
    Participant

    Redleg: The hamon am also dressed in the street distinguishable like Yidden.

    #1563614

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Most of those photos were not candid. Most candid photos show the opposite.

    #1563729

    laskern
    Participant

    The MB 91:12 mentioned above says כובע בראשו כדרך שהולך ברחוב. He should put a hat on by davenen the way he walks on the street. We see they wore hats on the street.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 4 weeks ago by  laskern.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 4 weeks ago by  laskern.
    #1563743

    huju
    Participant

    Why can’t bochurim dress like Moses and Yehoshua in hot weather?

    #1563736

    Redleg
    Participant

    Very insightful, Joseph

    #1563735

    Joseph
    Participant

    Candid shows them with hats and jackets in the street. Bochorim, yungerman and hamon hoam.

    #1563749

    laskern
    Participant

    As a historical note the discontinuation of wearing hats came with the arrival of President Kennedy. Cristziansich Yudensich. We follow the umas haolom.

    #1563787

    DWKL1
    Participant

    the now famous picture of non other then the chofetz chaim ztl shows him attending the kenissa gedola in a polish “peasants” hat
    so if your coming from a kovod hatora view the MB himself didnt seem to be busy with his outside appearance vs-vs how the outside world would preceive him.
    he didnt need a hamburg and kapoto to know who he was
    seems its only today when we are emptish inside that we feel the need to impress and command respect by our mode of dress .
    if you want to brand yourself as a yeshivaman or ben torah then perhaps their is a point in dressing a certain way
    then again some are way overboard when they take a walk in 90 degree weather together with their wife and still feel the need to wear a jacket and tie too .
    i always want to remind them they forgot their hat but always mind my own business but being the question was posed
    i can air my personal view on the issue

    #1563939

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    laskern: and where did bekeshehs and streimels come from? The Polish aristocracy.

    #1563986

    Joseph
    Participant

    The Polish aristocracy never wore anything even closely resembling a shtreimal or bekeshe.

    #1564001

    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    Joseph, the shtriemel was related to fur hats worn by Russian and Eastern European nobility.

    #1563994

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Ask around from someone from the alte heim and they will tell you that regular buchrim did NOT dress in hat and jacket to walk in the street, unless they were going dsven or learn.

    #1564010

    Haimy
    Participant

    As Ravi Avigdor Miller said; Today, a bar mitzvah bachurs new hat is as important as his new tefillin. His hat let’s him & everyone around him know that he’s different. He follows a different code of conduct.
    A hat & jacket are important parts of preserving our yiddishkeit.

    #1564040

    Joseph
    Participant

    I’ve asked many Yidden who survived the war and every one of them said it was the standard for every bochorim, yungerman and regular Yid to wear his hat and jacket when in public. It is also like this in many places in America. And it was like this in America in more places that lately got lax about it.

    The shtriemel had nothing to do with any fur hats worn by Russian or Eastern European nobility.

    #1564047

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    So hats are simply outdated?

    #1564050

    DovidBT
    Participant

    Men used to wear coats and ties when they went shopping, or to baseball games, or to most public places.

    #1564307

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “The shtriemel had nothing to do with any fur hats worn by Russian or Eastern European nobility.”

    This is demonstrably false Look up monomaks cap. Look at pictures of Russian and Tatar’s hats

    “As a historical note the discontinuation of wearing hats came with the arrival of President Kennedy.”
    It preceded Kennedy, Kennedy (who did wear a top hat to his inauguration) merely followed the trend

    #1564334

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    laskern,

    “As a historical note the discontinuation of wearing hats came with the arrival of President Kennedy. Cristziansich Yudensich. We follow the umas haolom.”

    I doubt that. I’m not a sociologist, but if I were to guess, I think the rise of the automobile as a primary mode of transportation, especially once they became climate controlled, is what led to hats falling into disuse. The ability to travel or commute in a dry cabin with comfortable temperatures reduced the need for the hat’s functionality, and the low ceiling and lack of space made hats inconvenient to bring along in the car.

    #1564348

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    New Yorker at heart,

    “I am overcome by this terrible trend hitting bnei Torah and Rebbiem”

    Overcome? Isn’t that a bit of hyperbole?

    “Just like a soldier in the army has to wear his uniform at all times when he is on duty or else he will get court marshaled,
    So too yungerliet and rabbeim who are on duty 24/7- 365 should have to wear their hats and jackets whenever they step out into the street.”

    Using your army moshol, the rabbeim are equivalent to our officers, and it’s failure to follow their orders that would result in a court marshal. If they are not objecting to a change in uniform standards on the base, what exactly is your problem?

    #1564421

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    I am pretty sure that the כובע בראשו mentioned are not the current fedoras we have today. Hamon am at that time wore caps.

    #1564402

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    I will go back to my original question….there still is too much focus on the dust cover of the book rather than its contents. If wearing clean and well-fitting dark pants, white shirt and kipah allow a bochur to be more comfortable and focus on his lamdus, why is having him “dress up” as if he were living in the alte heim going to enhance the quality and ruchniyus of his shteiging.. Does that mean it would be assur for him to use one of the newer variable height shtenders that go up/down at the press of a button and are made of recycled materials (since those were not found in a beis medrash in the alte heim either)..

    #1564470

    150
    Participant

    @ New Yorker At Heart

    Out of pure curiosity were you by Rav Ginzberg’s schmooze on the bottom floor of Beis Shalom Leil Tisha B’Av. Or this post pure coincidence?

    #1564560

    5ish
    Participant

    All of you who don’t know anything about history and about Europe and about America and everything quit your yakking.

    #1565056

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Rosh yeshivas and buchurim smoked cigarettes in the streets too. Why dont we see it today.?
    Who care that it causes lung cancer. Mesora is mesora. !שומר פתיים השם

    #1565152

    Midwest2
    Participant

    Neat slacks, sport shirt and regular-sized yarmulkeh or cap – that’s all that’s needed. The rest is all branding – look at me I’m a “whatever.” A yeshivah bachur doesn’t need a “uniform.” What makes him what he is, is what’s inside him and how he acts. A suit, hat, tie, white shirt will not help him if he doesn’t have the pnimius. Worry about what counts, not what your mental selfie shows.

    #1565185

    laskern
    Participant

    The chitzoniyos reflects the penimoyus which reflects the yeshiva.

    #1565192

    Arielski
    Participant

    In hot weather a fresh shirt and washable trousers are far more comfortable than a dark suit that might not get dry-cleaned often enough. You know what I mean, right?

    #1565194

    New Yorker at heart
    Participant

    @150
    I do not live in Lakewood and I was just posting Something that has been on my heart for the longest of time

    #1565991

    Joseph
    Participant

    150 — How did Rav Ginzburg shlita propose correcting the problem identified in the OP of Yidden walking in the streets without a hat and jacket?

    Perhaps other rabbonim should also raise this issue when speaking to their kehilos.

    #1568923

    Joseph
    Participant

    150?

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