Hatzulas Nefashos vs. Hatzalah

There is a big difference if people are competing to change your flat tire vs competing to provide potentially life saving care – oh, when one side is woefully unprepared for the task…… although one side does have a cyber truck so………

This is a shvere issue and I don’t know what the proper approach should be.

Rabbonim should step in and force competing organizations to cooperate when necessary. For example, if one of them can handle simple cases but not complicated ones, they should refer potentially complicated cases to their competitor. This is done. We have competing kashrus organizations certifying each other’s ingredients, for example.

If, and IF the competition would be adequately trained and qualified for the job, the only thing that it could bring is good, as it’s rival would strive to show they’re better at the job, to which the competition would reply in kind etc, up-ending the bar of quality in the service they provide.
Competition per se is a very good thing, just it needs to be done proper.
I’d imagine that they can’t get the licence and certification from their respective authorities unless they meet a certain base standard….?

Modern,

You ignore the instances where the patients cannot afford the time it takes to reach the hospital and also where the lack of ALS prevents the crew from transporting to an appropriate hospital that may be further away.

Furthermore, diagnosing active heart attacks and activating the cardiac cath team cannot be done on a BLS level.

These are just a few of many instances where lacking ALS integration may be detrimental to patient outcomes.

As long as they are not offering these services or regularly treating and resuscitating sick patients, it is not offering a competitive service to the community.

@UJM, I fail to see your point. Hatzalah of Lakewood changed their name to Hatzala of Central Jersey for political reasons too.

As someone who spoke to the guy whose son choking was the catalyst for HN being opened, it is true that the then Hatzalah of Lakewood had a huge issue of not having enough members to cover the area, despite fully qualified members who had moved into the area requesting to become members. I’m not getting into the “why” of it. If you want to believe it’s because of the levush/lifestyle of the person I’m not going to stop you because there is some evidence of that, but it’s beside the point.

Reality is that the person who started HN is known to be a doer, and also known to respond to threats, put-downs, and attacks by becoming more determined and not backing down. So when Hatzalah responded to them opening by complaining and attacking him, he went further and made sure to really make it a big project and yes, also did some things that were petty. But anyone who knows him would’ve told you that.

Hatzalah begrudgingly put one, then another bus in the area, which wasn’t nearly enough. There wouldn’t be the amount of Hatzalah coverage in the outer communities if not for HN. It’s just a shame that Hatzalah’s ego didn’t allow them to swallow their pride and work together with the new neighborhood members.

One side has well known respected rabbonim (lit is hand chasidish) backing them and the other does not. I know nothing more about the issue but that’s all I need to know.

In the long run, competition will force Hatzalah to be at the top of their game.

In the short term, Hashem yishmor from the bad outcomes which would seem likely when there’s an inexperienced organization responding to serious medical emergencies.

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Establishment? These are choshove busy rabbonim that have better things to do with their time than play politics. R’ Chaim Meir Roth, Reb SB Cohen and the Skverer Dayan wrote a letter because they meant what they wrote, not because they are “the establishment”. I have no idea who the fellow that opened HN is but if he feels it’s worthy to fight with rabbonim, that honestly tells me all I need to know.

Does “establishment” make chosheve rabbonim ois rov? Ridiculous and shameful!!!!

@UJM, at this point? no. The guy who started HN has that kind of attitude unfortunately, once you treat him terribly, he will never forgive you. But initially? Of course he would’ve. That’s what the community was begging for from day 1. Take our members into Hatzalah, even though they are chasidim.

Pony, right, so the original Hatzolah might call the new one to beis din. Bava Basra discusses that a professional guild can regulate their members, but if there is a Talmid Chacham, they should go to him for a ruling. Maybe, Hatzolah will be limited to their own losses, and they do not have a standing to defend community standards?

Why is this such a big deal- if you don’t want to use an organization because you like a different one better, or for any personal reason, then in case of need reach out to the one you are more comfortable with. Besides, why would Hatzalah mind if others step up to the plate, if their goal is to save lives. Hatzalah has B”H successfully served the various Jewish communities for decades. If/when another group proves their level of professionalism to YOU, and you would prefer, call them.

So why would ‘Hatzalah’ mind

So, let me get this straight. I’m involved c”v in a car accident where I sustain $5000 in damages and the other , frum guy , is 100% at fault, I’m not supposed to file a claim ? Where is he going to get the money?

pekak > we accept that they will take care of things for us.

So, this is what is done “in town”. I presume even those here who are tzadikim gemurim and practice defensive and kosher driving, still heard about other people getting in trouble. So, do people rely on insurance or go to B’D? say, one person’s daas Torah is for insurance path, and another – for B’D – do we get a B’D to resolve this?

Also, in reality, many people often pay off the other side to avoid going thru insurance or sometimes do not have it – are these cases going thru B’D or people simple settle on their own?

“In the long run, competition will force Hatzalah to be at the top of their game.
In the short term, Hashem yishmor from the bad outcomes which would seem likely when there’s an inexperienced organization responding to serious medical emergencies.”
So, by your own admission, it’s shortsighted to block all competition indefinitely.

“Because less experienced responders could lead to bad outcomes ch”v”
This is exactly what the pre-existing EMT services said when Hatzalah was being created. Hatzalah itself is the best piece of evidence against this argument. Aside from that, volunteer EMTs and firemen are extremely common in rural areas and they don’t “cause people to die” all the time. You seem to have a general distrust of non-government organizations and have made an exception in this davka for Hatzalah, but refuse to do so for anyone else. This is hypocritical and intellectually dishonest. Frum yidden love to talk the talk of fiscal conservatism and competition helping the consumer… until they talk about this. Then–all the sudden–any mention of free market competition and you might as well be told to go to the back of the bread line at the gulag.

“Because they want people to live, not die…”
Absurd and emotionalist argument that warrants no response. This echoes what Corona fanatics said in 2020 about anyone who questioned Fauci. It’s not your business what risks other people chose to take with their lives. Nobody is stopping you from using Hatzalah if you think it’s safer.

pekak, we are supposed to go to Beis Din when dealing with each other. Put aside for now hard cases involving medical, but a simple damage case. If my bull gores your bull or if my car bumps up your car – wouldn’t B’D be the place to resolve it? Possibly, B’D will tell you to go to the insurance company, or even give a general psak to do that. Again, I understand there are different views, I am asking how people do it in practice. Anyone in town here? A lot of people surely sound like they are!