Have we argued enough about Chanukah?

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  • #618883

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Does anyone find it ironic that the holiday that celebrates victory over assimilation is often celebrated with traditions taken from the goyim, such as baking cookies and throwing parties?

    #1206019

    Moshe1994
    Participant

    Hmm baking cookies very Goyish…

    #1206020

    no we obviously have not argued enough about chanukah yet because we have still not arrived at the chanukas of the 3rd bais hamikdosh with mashiachs arrival.

    time to each ask ourselves what might be some of reasons why we are not ready for the geula yet? let us know what you feel is your honest opinion why we are still in golus.

    Why isn't Mashiach here yet?

    may this year chanuka arrive with mashiach coming & us lighting the 7 branch menora in the bais Hamikdosh

    #1206021

    shebbesonian
    Participant

    Nope. Nobody.

    #1206022

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    baking cookies

    I had no idea that when I bake cookies I am violating the lav of “U’v’chukosaihem lo sailaichu.” 🙁

    The Wolf

    #1206023

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Wolf, if it helps you to be happier and to be a better Jew, and to give your kids an appreciation for Yiddishkeit and Jewish holidays,I think it’s a Mitzvah.

    In any case, as long as you have hodayah at your Chanuka party, it’s fine. Sing Al Hanisim with feeling, thank your wife (according to Rav Avigdor Miller, if you don’t thank your mother/wife, your thanks to Hashem is meaningless) or she can thank you if you’re the one who made everything, enabling both of you to reach higher levels of hodaya to HaKadosh Baruch Hu.

    #1206024

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I also think it’s a good place to mention the famous story of Rav Shach, Zatsal. When his son didn’t follow in his path, he said that it may be because they didn’t sing zmiros at the Shabbos Table (I assume he felt it was bitul Torah).

    With so many kids going OTD, it’s not kidai to give up things that will help bond the family and give the kids a positive feeling for Yiddishkeit.

    Obviously, the focus on Chanuka should not be on materialism, the gashmius should be of the simpler non-materialistic variety (like cookies) and for the purpose of increasing family unity and closeness to Hashem and an appreciation for Torah.

    #1206026

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    As if Jews don’t partake in eating treats at Yom Tov parties the rest of the year?

    #1206027

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Wolf,

    I think it might be “ub’cookies she’lohem lo sochailu”.

    #1206028

    golfer
    Participant

    Wolf, I don’t think you need to worry.

    We have responsa going back hundreds of years regarding the delicacies we prepare for our Chagim. We are undoubtedly the holiest of the holy and the sweetest of the sweet in all areas of cooking, baking and frying when we celebrate.

    If anything, they’re following in our footsteps.

    #1206029

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Back in the day, sugar was super expensive. Only nobles could afford it.

    That we can afford to bake treats in itself is cause for rolling out holy day cookies.

    #1206030

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    It’s not the baking of cookies that is the problem, it’s the similarity to the specific types of cookies that are a goyish holiday tradition.

    #1206031

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    How has nobody mentioned giving gifts yet?

    RY: What specific types of cookies? I’m not being argumentative, by the way, I’m just curious as to what you mean.

    #1206032

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Rebyidd23: what type of cookies are you referring to?

    #1206033

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Sugar cookies in holiday-related shapes.

    #1206034

    jake joe
    Participant

    there a store in flatbush that chanukah to the goyish to the next level!

    by placing “maccabees” in their front window like the goyim place santa!!!!

    #1206035

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    The maccabees thing could be a graven image. But it’s not all “goyish.” We are all human and enjoy similar things, like sharing out lights and bringing warmth to the darkest time of the year.

    I thought that the rabbonim say to put our Channukiot by our windows.

    Is that like being goyish? With Christmas candles and trees by the windows?

    I think it’s a testament to how much we can be openly Jewish in the US.

    What if instead of outrage we saw it with gratitude that someone Jewish felt safe enough to blast Channukah with such a flashy promotion.

    #1206036

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    What is wrong with cookies in the shape of a menorah or dreidel?

    #1206037

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    iacisrmma: I think those that felt it was wrong felt that way because the type of cookies is taken from x-mas, in their opinions. If that is the case, I would imagine that the fact that it is made in the shape of a menorah or dreidel wouldn’t help.

    However, I’m not convinced it’s a problem. Personally, I never heard such a thing before.

    Of course, the fact that I never heard of it, doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not, but the fact that the ONLY place I have heard of it (after living in this world for many years in many places) is online w/o a source does make it suspect.

    Also, it is just a type of cookie and I can’t imagine it is only used for x-mas. In fact, this is the first time that I ever heard that it has anything to do with x-mas.

    But if anyone has any sources for this idea, I would be open to hearing more about it. Thanks!

    #1206038

    golfer
    Participant

    A New Chanukah Song

    My Chanuka sugar cookie

    I baked you out of dough

    I popped you in the oven

    As it began to snow

    Dreidels iced with sugar

    My grandkids cried, “So cool!”

    But posters on the CR

    Said I’m a great big fool!

    I won’t suggest a tune (- I know most of you will figure it out) for fear of being accused of blasphemy.

    #1206039

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    golfer +1

    #1206040

    kapusta
    Participant

    [applause]

    #1206041

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Encore

    #1206042

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    It’s not that there’s anything wrong with sugar cookies. It’s just, why not lavender-flavored chocolate chip cookies?

    #1206043

    Meno
    Participant

    What’s with all this lavender? Are you the one who said you put it in your coffee?

    #1206044

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Never had them. Sound yummy. Can you roll out the dough and cut them into dreidels?

    Not everyone likes flowers in their cookies.

    Or chocolate chips.

    Sugar cookies are modest. Fun in shape. And stand on the sidelines where sufganiyot and latkes take the field.

    #1206045

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    I didn’t say I put it in my coffee. I said it is possible to make a lavender syrup. I said that lavender syrup tastes good. I said that it is possible to add the syrup to coffee.

    You don’t put the flowers into the cookies, you add flavored sugar, syrup or extract. You can’t shape chocolate chip cookies, but you can cut them after baking.

    #1206046

    Meno
    Participant

    RebYidd23,

    Well since you didn’t say it, let me ask you: Do you put lavender syrup in your coffee?

    #1206047

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Cutting already baked chocolate chip cookies?

    How? They break into pieces. Unless you make super gooey soft ones with kosher gelatin and cut them while still warm?

    #1206048

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Bake the soft kind.

    #1206049

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    yes but my sugar cookie recipe comes from my Bubby, who got it from her mother…while my chocolate chip cookie recipe comes off of the Nestle chocolate chip bag.

    #1206050

    Meno
    Participant

    “while my chocolate chip cookie recipe comes off of the Nestle chocolate chip bag”

    Best recipe ever. I don’t understand why anyone would use any other recipe.

    #1206051

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    I must agree with RY that it’s unlikely that the Chanukah cookies were developed independently of Christmas cookies.

    That doesn’t necessarily make it Chukas haGoyim. The goyim don’t attach any ritualistic or superstitious significance to the cookies, they just do it for fun. It’s just an ironic way of celebrating the holiday that memorializes our resistance to assimilation.

    And, again, why hasn’t anyone brought up gifts yet?

    #1206052

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant
    #1206053

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Ritualistic practice for Xmas cookies:

    How about leaving them out for the S-man with a cup of milk.

    But then would we have to ban leaving out a glass of wine on Pesach for Eliyahu?

    #1206054

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    No LB, but we have to ban pot bellies and white beards (I don’t have to mention red suits, since that B”H never crept into our customs).

    #1206055

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    WTP +1

    Omgosh I didn’t even think about the long white beard!

    When was the razor [man’s clean shaved face] invented?

    Maybe every old man back in the day had a beard?

    And he was clearly of a higher social status that he could afford enough to plump up. That was back then. Today it’s often the opposite.

    #1206056

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Wouldn’t it be sweet if families sent out family-photo Chanukah cards every year?

    #1206057

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    We probably shouldn’t have lectured our friend about it being goyish to wear an ugly sweater on Chanukah.

    #1206058

    What about a Chanukah sweater? Or Chanukah lights on a house?

    By the way:

    Xmas is a common abbreviation of the word Christmas. It is sometimes pronounced /??ksm?s/, but Xmas, and variants such as Xtemass, originated as handwriting abbreviations for the typical pronunciation /?kr?sm?s/. The “X” comes from the Greek letter Chi, which is the first letter of the Greek word ???????, which in English is “Christ.” The “-mas” part is from the Latin-derived Old English word for Mass. -Wikipedia

    #1206059

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Randomex- I knew that, but it still feels better to write it that way since to me the letter “x” is meaningless. So if I have to write it one way or another, I’d rather write it that way until someone comes up with something better.

    #1206060

    Meno
    Participant

    Rabbi Dovid Orlofsky tells a story where he went into a Sukkah in EY and he sees a picture of “the S-man” on the wall. He asks a kid who it is, so the kid responds “I don’t know. Some rebbe”

    #1206061

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Aha!!! Outlawing donuts.

    Here it is, here it is:

    “As head of a powerful ultra-Orthodox political party, the bearded and black-coated Yaakov Litzman considers himself a guardian of Jewish traditions. But in his other hat, he’s a health-conscious official on a mission to stamp out junk food and child obesity.

    Litzman’s two roles have come into conflict with his high-profile call to avoid the lure of the high-calorie “sufgania” doughnut.

    “I call on the public to avoid eating sufganiyot, which are rich in fats,” Litzman told a conference last week promoting healthy eating. “You can find alternatives for everything nowadays and there is no need for us to fatten our children.”

    #1206062

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LB – and here, I was sure it was just a joke!

    uh, I wouldn’t say his “two roles have come into conflict”. Last I checked, the Shulchan Aruch doesn’t mention anything about a chiyuv of eating sufganiyot on Chanuka!

    #1206063

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Lol. Imagine if eating sufganiyot was halacha.

    I wonder if eating foods with oil, esp olive oil, is mentioned in the SA?

    #1206064

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Oh… Sufganiyot aren’t all about the oil. We can thank Israel for making them a Chanukah tradition.

    From TIME:

    From its Germanic origins, the dessert quickly conquered most of Europe. It became krapfen to the Austrians, the famous Berliners to the Germans and paczki to the Polish. Substituting schmaltz or goose fat for the decidedly un-Kosher lard in their fryers, the Jewish peoples of these regions also enjoyed the dessert, particularly Polish Jews, who called them ponchiks and began eating them regularly on Hanukkah. When these groups migrated to Israel in the early twentieth century, fleeing the harsh anti-Semitism of Europe, they brought their delicious jelly-filled doughnuts with them, where they mingled with the North African fried-dough tradition.

    The latke, the classic fried potato pancake that was already associated with Hanukkah celebrations, is a dish that can easily be made at home. A perfectly filled and fried sufganiyot is much more difficult. Even some of the most talented at-home cooks will agree that the treat tastes better when left up to the professionals. Which is exactly what the Histadrut wanted: a Hanukkah treat that involved professionals. As many important Jewish holidays are concentrated in autumn, the end of that season often brought a lull in work in Jewish quarters. By pushing the sufganiyot as a symbol of the Festival of Lights, as opposed to the DIY-friendly latke, the Histradut could encourage the creation of more jobs for Jewish workers.

    Sufganiyot can now be found throughout the United States as well during Hanukkah, produced by Jewish and non-Jewish bakeries alike. After all, as people all over the world have been discovering for centuries, no one can say no to a truly delicious jelly doughnut.” (TIME)

    —-“Emelyn Rude is a food historian and the author of Tastes Like Chicken, available in August of 2016.” (TIME)

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