Why isn’t Mashiach here yet?
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Tagged: Der Geulah is kimin! perspective
- This topic has 85 replies, 39 voices, and was last updated 1 year ago by yungermanS.
July 14, 2013 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #610061yungermanSParticipant
now that we are in the midst of the 3 weeks of mourning over the Bais Hamikdosh, I thought it was finally time we sat down with each other & asked ourselves this question-why isn’t Mashiach here yet?-
among a few of the answers found in seforim & other places:
2) Hashem sees no reason why he should give us back the ??? ????? , Hashem goes to one person sitting in this corner, he has beautiful children he already bought his house he has a car, he’s so happy he’s not grieving over my ??? ????? that’s 1 less person for my ??? ?????. The next person sitting at this corner has beautiful children he loves to learn & has a rich Father-in-law supporting him he’s so happy hes not grieving over my ??? ????? that’s 1 less person for my ??? ?????. what is Hashem saying to his Malachim? just look at my children down there look how happy they are i gave them everything cars, planes, computers, Electricity & phones Etc… forget if they are Makir Tov (Grateful) for everything i give them that is not today’s lesson, Let me leave my ??? ????? up in heaven with me when my children cry for it i will give it back to them, but right now look how happy they are. A perfect Mashal would be if a Principal in a Cheder took away a ball from a boy, because he was hitting people with it. If he went to the Principal & said i’m sorry i just want to have fun i won’t hit anyone with it. I give you my word he will give him his ball back. Do you think the Principal needs it? He already has a whole basket sitting in his office. Hashem is waiting for Klal Yisroel to wake up & do ?????, the gates of ????? are never closed, the worst kings of Klal Yisroel did ????? at the end of their life yes, Achav & Menashe look at them, after 30 years of avoda zora Menashe cried & wept out all the way from his heart for teshuva from Hashem & Hashem accepted it WHY? Because he really meant it. Hashem is waiting for Klal Yisroel to do ?????. Hashem is waiting for the day to put his presence back in this world & bring us back the Bais Hamikdosh but we just don’t seem to be ready.
3)All of us have heard, read & seen tons of true stories of people who had their first child at 42 or had a sick child in critical condition, & then the doctor says i’m very sorry but your daughter has only 3 hours to live & then he comes back 2 hours later & says its really a miracle but your child is beginning to recover etc…. Why is it that they finally had a child & the child recovered? There could be tons of answers, but the most common answer Is a Pasuk we say 3 times a day in Davening. Hashem is close to all who call to him, to all who call out truthfully. (Tehillim 145)Because they cried out from their heart, they really meant what they were saying when they davened to H-shem to have a baby or for his daughter to recover etc…. there’s a reason we call Hashem, Avinu She’bashamayim (our father in heaven) Hashem loves us from a father to a son & is waiting to put his Shchina (presence) & his bais hamikdosh back in this world. If we really cried out for the Bais Hamikdosh from our heart with truth & show that we are missing it, then we wouldn’t still be in Golus today.
4)the Sinas Chinam today is just as bad-if not worse-then when the second Bais Hamikdosh was destroyed. Wheres the Achdus among Klal yisroel? how can we expect it back without fixing the problem of why it was destroyed? when klal yisroel comes together-on all levels from frum to chassidish to reform etc…-& begs Hashem for Mashiach then we will be answered.
Perhaps you can give me some other reasons from Seforim you saw.July 14, 2013 11:43 pm at 11:43 pm #1165854
The idea that Mashiach will fall from the clouds on horseback as a conquering hero is not a Jewish one. Rambam, in Hilchot Melakhim, makes it clear that the Mashiach and the period of Geulah are things that humanity must prepare themselves for. We have to be zoche the geulah sheleima, through moral and spiritual and social progress. Improvements in ben adam le chavero and taking steps towards creating a more just society are certainly peulot that pave the way for the Messianic era.July 14, 2013 11:43 pm at 11:43 pm #1165855
The idea that Mashiach will fall from the clouds on horseback as a conquering hero is not a Jewish one. Rambam, in Hilchot Melakhim, makes it clear that the Mashiach and the period of Geulah are things that humanity must prepare themselves for. We have to be zoche the geulah sheleima, through moral and spiritual and social progress. Improvements in ben adam le chavero and taking steps towards creating a more just society are certainly peulot that pave the way for the Messianic era.July 14, 2013 11:48 pm at 11:48 pm #1165856truthsharerMember
Because of Shas.July 14, 2013 11:50 pm at 11:50 pm #1165857yeshivaguy45Participant
There’s a chassidishe maaseh that there were two rebbes that were bothered by the question why isn’t Mashiach here yet? One Rebbe thought it was because due to lack of tznius and he went went traveling from community to community giving drashos on tznius. The other Rebbe thought that if People would be careful to answer Amein nad Amein Yehe Shmei Rabba with kavana and and not talk in middle of davening, then Mashiach would come. He went traveling from community to community giving drashos on this inyun. One day they met at an inn and each tried to persuade the other that he was right. Neither could pesuade the other so they decided to do a Goral Hagra. They did it and it fell on the pasuk ?????? ???? ?? ??????? which is in ?????? ?? ??. The Targum Yehonasan translates this as It’s not proper that it should be said in a Jewish gathering. According to one meaning it means tznius, according to Targum Yonasan, it meant that People don’t talk properly in a jewish place which means Amein and Yehei Shmei Raba. So both Rebbes were right and they both continued to travel to different communities to darshan on these topics.July 15, 2013 12:35 am at 12:35 am #1165858WIYMember
Now these Rabbanim retired and just post threads in the coffeeroom.July 15, 2013 1:52 am at 1:52 am #1165859
I’d prefer to keep present politics out of the equation, truthsharer. In all actuality, there have been lots of cases where rabbis of one school of thought condemn their opponents (real or perceived) or those with shitot differing from their own shitot as “Amalek.” Rabbi Saul Berman, for instance, was described by a famous rosh yeshiva at YU in a 1998 shiur as “representing a sort of internal Amalek.” In one case, you have a Centrist Orthodox rabbi calling a more Modern rabbi “Amalek,” and in another, you have a Haredi Sephardic rabbi calling an Orthodox, Dati Leumi politician “Amalek,” and in another case you had an alumnus of a prominent yeshiva being called a “shana u’pirush” by the present rosh hayeshiva of that institution. Where does the buck stop?July 15, 2013 11:13 am at 11:13 am #1165860jewishfeminist02Member
yungermanS “Perhaps you can give me some other reasons from Seforim you saw.”
truthsharer “Because of Shas.”
rebdoniel “I’d prefer to keep present politics out of the equation, truthsharer.”
Maybe truthsharer meant Shas as in Gemara, not Shas as in the political party! Meaning…Mashiach isn’t here yet for reasons enumerated in Shas!!January 6, 2014 2:32 am at 2:32 am #1165861yungermanSParticipant
there are lots of future events that are going to happen in the pre-moshiach days that you can find in the sefer of Zecharya Hanavi. Many things that Hashem told him would occur. open one up & see for yourself
wish we would all do teshuva as a nation already so mashiach would be here alreadySeptember 13, 2015 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #1165863
bump this for bump day for hope that mashiach comes before succos so we can all be together in the bais hamikdosh for HakhelSeptember 16, 2015 9:40 am at 9:40 am #1165864Geordie613Participant
How soon does Moshiach have to come that we can get tahor in time?August 12, 2016 12:26 am at 12:26 am #1165865
9 days bumpAugust 12, 2016 12:51 am at 12:51 am #1165866apushatayidParticipant
Perhaps he needs a better agent.August 12, 2016 1:50 am at 1:50 am #1165867
I truly beleive Mashiach will come. I truly beleive Hashem loves us wholhearthy more then we love ourselfs. I truly beleif mashiach will come when Hashem will want him to come. But I often think that even goyim will see mashiach because the world will continue even then.So I speak to Hashem which jew is wourse then a goy? And if you do find that real bad jew….then Hashem can you imagine how great your name will become when that bad jew will do tziva as it states a bal tziva stands higher then a tzadik…and yes everyone will do tziva when mashiach will come..Hashem for your sake ..everyone should recognize your greatness please let it be the right time and come …Can you imagine everyone heavens and earth we will all sing together with love to Hashem……!!!!!!!…..meanwhile let us turn to Hashem with strong feelings of love ..with strong feelings of being connected…with strong feelings of simcha that we were chosen to be his children…only we….Hashem we love you….. we are together forever and ever…August 12, 2016 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #1165868☕️coffee addictParticipant
Who says? Maybe it will be like yetzias mitzrayim where only 1/5 went out?August 14, 2016 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #1165869
Coffee addict Tisha bav bumpAugust 14, 2016 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #1165870
coffee addict…everything is a maybe…I just beg Hashem….and if you think its only a 5th… dont you want to be one of them…So lets rejoice… from the entire world we are chosen to be hashems only children….lucky us….if so he is our only father…now which father doesnt love his children…so let us in return feel love towards our father by forfilling his wish we express our love….and let us all be zoycha with mashiach to step into our 3rd beth hamikdash…ameinAugust 14, 2016 10:00 pm at 10:00 pm #1165871
Just pointing out, if Moshiach comes too soon a person won’t have time to do enough teshuva and tikun and some punishments carry over into the era of Moshiach.
If a person stutters, says the Chofetz Chaim, it meant that they were bad mouthers and didn’t make amends. If they can’t talk at all, mute, they were lifetime slanders and loshon hara-ers. If you see a person bent over and can’t stand straight, that one was massively arrogant. Can’t see properly? Looked at too many women etc.
So I ask you all, how SOON do you want Moshiach? Because we need to rectify ourselves beforehand. Now say, Heaven will help us speed that — anyone like physical affliction, ailments, suffering to cleanse one up?
Effective, perhaps. Not delightful to experience.
So I want Moshiach, but I want to rectify myself through Torah learning. Better that way. Reading the Aggadah like Ein Yaakov and Menoras Hamaor is very good to do that. Especialy reading pages of the Zohar. But ones needs to be clean from anger and have a mikvah in the morning first…August 14, 2016 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #1165872
I wish everyone thought like you BUT today we have a major problem called FACING REALITY where everyone thinks their way of life is the correct way and there’s no teshuva necessary for me to do.
Won’t you open your eyes and see the time of endless tragedies were currently in? Bus sadly klal yisroel is not ready to FACE REALITY and admit to our father Hashem that we need to do teshuva. So Mashiach can’t come because there is no teshuva being doneAugust 14, 2016 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #1165873Sam2Participant
Excellence: I think that it is because of logic like yours why the Rambam frames this Ikkar Emunah as one that you have to actually actively “hope for” every day. The other Ikkarim are just things you have to believe. This one you have to actively want.August 15, 2016 12:39 pm at 12:39 pm #1165874
I want Moshiach, I just need more time to fix myself. I began reading a large variety of mussar seforim a few yrs ago — and I fume these books were not taught in school. I am years behind schedule…August 15, 2016 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #1165875
What’s amusing — but perhaps not so — is that each time I make a significant tikun on my neshama these last few years, or try to seriously nullify anger or another midda, the yester h takes revenge. Within a few days he’s strikes at me in some way. And if I am too strong, he makes a hit at the people closest to me. I’ve never seen such a dishonourable coward in my life.August 15, 2016 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #1165876
And WE deserve that he should come now ,because?August 15, 2016 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #1165877
WE are not deserving of Mashiach now R”L because we are still not ready yet as a nation to do teshuva together.
When we confess and admit to Hashem that we are ready to do teshuva and do it like in the story of Purim then Mashiach will come.
Until then this tragic time of non-stop tragedies will continue R”L. I.e. when a child doesn’t listen to a parent then the parent has no choice but to punish his child. This is out of love and for the child’s benefit. We are Hashems children and we leave him no choice for our good until we wake up and do teshuva.
May it happen very soonAugust 15, 2016 11:13 pm at 11:13 pm #1165878
I have a different point of view…I think we are the best children hashem had ever had…look at all the chesed..countless org. countless zaduka …countless tora is being spread from tapes to sheirs..
and in contradiction..look at tech,…we have to struggle with every day..never in history did we have this big nisoyan with a push of a button from your living room you could do the worst..chas vashulem..and yet we do what we can ..with all the filters to help each others.. .we went through wars and struggled to build again klal yisrael from whom….all from young orphans that witness the worst klal yisrael became alive again..how can anyone talk bad on Hashems children…we are his best…just let us not loose our batuchin our aminah thats our nisoyan…true there are so many tragedies another nisoyan..lets not give up ..lets practice mitvas gadola liyas bsimcha to help us rejoice with hashems mitzvas lets feel close to hashem beleive and trust …and go together towards mashiach. ameinAugust 15, 2016 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #1165879Little FroggieParticipant
If I would have a computer to log on to the CR, I would respond to the above.August 16, 2016 2:52 am at 2:52 am #1165880Sam2Participant
Excellence: ??? ????? ?????? ?????…???? ?? ??? ??? ????.August 16, 2016 3:26 am at 3:26 am #1165881HappygirlygirlMember
It’s gonna be the little little kinderlach it’s gonna be the little little kinderlach that brings moshiach!!!!!!!!August 16, 2016 10:19 am at 10:19 am #1165882
Happygirl is correct. But I know a few ways that will cause Moshiach to come faster. Don’t discount us out yet.
I know from tzaddikim in history who knew it – the yestzer h threatened to give them personal attention if they continued.
He did that with Rebbe Elimelech too — the rebbe told him where to go. I think the yetzer h sometimes think we tremble at the sound of his voice. Where’d he read that memo…?August 16, 2016 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #1165883SoftwordsParticipant
rebdoniel – basically you are saying “the reason Moshiach is not here yet is because of sinat chinam from the chareidim”. (After all, EVERY example you gave is one where a MO or DL was verbally attacked by a chareidi Rabbi)
In my opinion, your comment is a perfect example of the problem that is preventing us to be zoche to Mashiach sooner. In your righteous endeavor to state where you feel we are going wrong by explaining that Sinat Chinam is the cause, you fail to recognize that in your own statements you are showing your own Sinat Chinam. It is clear that you have a “disdain” for chareidim (I’m putting it mildly).
We have to stop seeing each other as “not one from my camp” and view each other as another child of the “Rabono shel Olam”.
I believe it is acceptable for us to feel that the other’s hashkafas are mistaken, but that does not give licence for me to hate you or vice versa (unless one of us is purposely trying to destroy the sanctity of Klal Yisrael).
As far as the cases you gave above, you brought down three cases were the persons in question are very controversial. It doesn’t surprise me in the least that Rabbanonim came out against them and rightfully so. I hate to say it, but it seems to me that your attitude is the type that if Yeshu was alive today you’d get upset that our sages came out against him and you’d cry, “Sinat Chinam”!
Although the general rule is Divrei Chochomim B’nachat Nishmaim there are times that Chazal are REQUIRED to come out harshly. You clearly brought out three of such cases.
Perhaps it would be good for you to broaden you mind and circles by learning texts from various sects of Klal Yosrael and even daven with them for a while. Get to know them up close and understand their way of thinking. Only then can you truly see the big picture and determine which “Derech” is best for you.
I’ve personally have spent time with and davened by MO, DL, Chabad, Chassidim, Litvish (and at several different places with very different Hashgafas), BT Yeshivas, Breslov, Sefardim, Persians, Teamanim, and Breslov. I’ve even experienced some very treif groups such as the Kabbalah Cult as well. I know the Pros and Cons of each one of them and that knowledge helps me to know how to interact with each one of them. It has also allowed me to see them as other Jewish human beings instead of hating them and view them as “THEM”! (If you know what I mean.)July 22, 2018 11:31 am at 11:31 am #1562603GadolhadorahParticipant
Perhaps because such a large percentage of the frum tzibur have committed THEIR lives to giving musar to the rest of us as to how we should live OUR lives to be zoche for the geulah and z’man moichiach. As others have noted, its NOT as simple as the heilege armchair rabbonim in the CR lecturing women about their lack of tizinius or dozens of sponsored video clips of chashuvah rabbonim and askanim adomishing the tzibur about “talking in shul” or the 114th asiah screaming gevalt about the dangers of the internet and smartphones. Ultimately, it is each of us looking inside our souls as we approach the yamim noraim and finding sustainable ways of improving our own midos across the board and reaching out with ahavas yisroel to help just one other yid in a non-judgemental way to come closer to the Ebeshter. Not all that complicated and more likely than some of the more high visibility and higher amplified strategies noted above.
Edited! How do you ask for ahavas yisroel and degrade others in the same post?July 22, 2018 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #1562573jakobParticipant
So true and very sad
May we all wake up and do Teshuva very soonJuly 22, 2018 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm #1562616
Do we go about our hours with of י -לתקן עולם במלכות שד
A great RYonce put it”Moshiach kumpt nisht,Mir darf areinbrengen”July 22, 2018 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #1562653ToiParticipant
IITFT- Dayn yiddish shtinkt a sach.July 22, 2018 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #1562680
Look at the Klei Yokor in Parshas Devorim on פנו לכם צפונה, be hidden in galus. Do not forget that we are in galus by showing off through building fancy houses. If we forget, Hashem keeps out there.July 22, 2018 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #1562686
The answer might lie in our current parsha Voeschanan Devorim 4:29 ובקשתם את ה’ אלקיך ומצאת כי תדרשנו בכל לבבך ובכל נפשך you will seek Hashem your G-d and find him because you will look for him with your whole heart and soul. This we should remember in galus and Moshiach will come.July 22, 2018 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #1562646TalmidchochomParticipant
Why isn’t moshiach here yet? Quick thought that just came to mind.
Just returned from 2:00 Mincha minyan. A half minyan’s worth of tefillin laying males were on their cell phones/smartphones before chazoras hashatz.July 22, 2018 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #1562618
Of Sinas Chinom It states that “m’dlo Michah” because they were Not Reproving ( out of tough love) that was proof of Sinas chinom, doesn’t it,?!July 22, 2018 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #1562699
It says היום אם בקולו תשמעו, it can be today, if we listen to him.July 22, 2018 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #1562698Adam NeiraParticipant
I have presented the following Multiple Choice Question to various people over the last 15 years. (How people answer this explains a lot about their “Judaism” and Religious perspective.)
Do you think “Moshiach” :
A- Is a type of Polish stew best served in winter.
B- Is a silly old concept with no relevance to today. (Many Reform, Progressive, Liberal, Conservative/Masorti Jews believe this.)
C- Is satisfied by the State of Israel itself. i.e. It does not imply an actual person. (The Uber Zionist position)
D- Has already lived and will return in a Second Coming. (The Evangelical Christian and Mishichist Lubavitch “M.M.Schneerson is Moshiach” view.)
E- Has not been born yet. He is yet to come.
F- Is a metaphor for an age of peace. i.e. It does not imply an actual person. (Ditto B above et al.)
G- Is alive and breathing right now doing his work.
I wonder how shocked many people would be if (G) is shown to them as the correct answer now. As I have realised since 1995 there are different levels of awareness. There most certainly is a hierarchy of awareness/wisdom in the world now in late July 2018.
Stay Tuned…July 22, 2018 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #1562700
For sinas chinom, look up the Rashbam, Ramban on לא תשנא את אחיך בלבבך do not keep your hatred bottled up in your heart but admonish him about it. See also the Yad Yosef on the Ein Yaakov Yoma 9. According to this there are two causes 1) not admonishing, telling him why you hate him 2) hating for an inexcusable reason where your reason for hatred is not an acceptable reason so you act like friend and keep the hatred fester in your heart.July 22, 2018 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #1562714zahavasdadParticipant
Moshiach hasnt come because people are pointing the finger at others, Point the finger at yourself. make yourself betterJuly 22, 2018 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #1562735☕️coffee addictParticipant
Moshiach hasnt come because people are pointing the finger at others, Point the finger at yourself. make yourself better
Are you pointing fingers at other people?July 22, 2018 11:06 pm at 11:06 pm #1562754knaidlachParticipant
when you point a finger to someone you have 3 fingers pointing to yourselfJuly 23, 2018 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #1563200knaidlachParticipant
ADAM NEIRA. about D in your post, please look in Sanhedrin p. 98 b, and in rash”i there the first pshat. its very clear that there is an opinion in gmara that moshiach ‘has already lived and will return a second time’.July 23, 2018 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #1563294
Are you talking of Hilel’s view that means that there will not be 40 years between the comming of Moshiach and techiyas hamesim, see the Abarbanel on Moshiach. It could be someone alive will be Moshiach as the gemora questions it, but there is no view that the Moshiach will return a second time.July 23, 2018 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #1563331CSParticipant
I recently saw a fascinating rashi, last one in Daniel that says moshiach will be revealed, then will be concealed and then we’ll be revealed again. Apparently it’s not the only place either… So yeah sounds strange because we usually associate that with a false religion but its there in our sourcesJuly 23, 2018 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #1563335CSParticipant
Also I was reading the kitov book our history on how David was despised by his own family and city because his own father and brothers thought he was a mamzer so they treated him badly and then everyone else did too. It was quite a shock to the family when he was anointed let alone the country’s reaction when he became king. I guess that’s why it took him so long to establish his kingship. If there was such a shock factor when it came to just the ancestor of moshiach, imagine how it’ll be by moshiach himself.July 23, 2018 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #1563368icemelterParticipant
Also doesnt it say (in Rash”i) something about being concealed 45 years? That doesnt fit with the last generation of galus from 20 years ago does it?July 23, 2018 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #1563359icemelterParticipant
btw shlucha did you ever read this?
In fact, the Rebbe constantly made clear that he is not Mashiach. In his monumental biography of the Rebbe, Joseph Telushkin devotes a chapter to this question, and writes:
In 1965, Rabbi Avraham Parizh, an elder Chasid who had been with the movement from the time of the Fifth Rebbe, printed letters stating: “With great joy, we can inform you that King Messiah, for whom we have waited so many years, is already among us. He is the holy Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, the King Messiah. His address is 770 Eastern Parkway, Brooklyn, New York. He does not need us to choose him since God has chosen him.” Rabbi Parizh printed up many of these letters and started handing them out in Israel. According to one account, Parizh also distributed these letters by dropping them out of a helicopter.
When the Rebbe learned of the letter, he instructed his secretariat to immediately dispatch a telegram to Parizh, dated June 24, 1965: “We were shocked by the letter [you wrote and handed out] and ask that you immediately cease distributing it. Gather and send to the secretariat all copies of the letter, every last one, and please confirm immediately that you have fulfilled this instruction.” Chasidim tell how Parizh spent several weeks scrounging around the streets of Tel Aviv looking for every such sheet he could find…
In 1991, Rabbi Aharon Dov Halprin, the editor of Chabad’s Israeli magazine, Kfar Chabad, wanted to print an article explaining why the Rebbe was worthy of being considered the presumed Messiah. When the Rebbe learned of this he responded sharply, “If you, God forbid, [plan to write] anything even remotely similar, it is preferable that you shut down the periodical completely.”
In an urgent audience to which the Rebbe summoned Chabad activist Rabbi Tuvia Peles, the Rebbe rebuked those who were making Messianic claims about him, saying, “They are taking a knife to my heart” and “they are tearing off parts of me.”
… Some months later, and shortly before the Rebbe’s stroke, the Alaska-based shliach, Rabbi Yosef Greenberg (author of Y’mei Bereishit), brought a letter to be given to the Rebbe in which he referred to him as “King Messiah”. Later that same day, Rabbi Groner told Greenberg that the Rebbe had looked at the letter, thrown it down in frustration, and then wrote on it, “Tell him that when the Moshiach comes, I will give him the letter.”
An even more definitive statement of the Rebbe on this same issue occurred at around the same time. An Israeli journalist, Sarah Davidowitz of the Kol Ha’ir newspaper, approached the Rebbe and said, “We appreciate you very much, we want to see you in Israel; you said soon you will be in Israel, so when will you come?” The Rebbe responded: “That depends on the Moshiach, not on me.” The journalist persisted, “You are the Moshiach!,” to which the Rebbe responded: “I am not”.
Ok Ok now lets hear all the excuses twisting it all to your liking.
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