Have you ever met a woman who doesn’t want to have her own children?

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  • #1299660

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Is it so taboo for a Jewish woman to not want to have her own children that such feelings go unspoken?

    Thank you

    #1299739

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Or raise any children for the matter

    #1299737

    Joseph
    Participant

    It is an affront to Hashem, who is the One who decides whom to give children to.

    #1299759

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    So what is your answer?

    Have you spoken to a woman in real life who specifically and verbally expressed said feelings?

    #1299771

    LB: If I would meet such a woman I wouldn’t say anything. Women are not obligated in the mitzvah of “multiplying”, it is an obligation on the man. However, if I knew such a woman I would let any potential shidduch know about her feelings.

    #1299788

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I actuallly knew such a person, She was not able to have children of her own natually (She was upfront about it) so I suspect it just became her way of accepting her situation

    #1299784

    commonsense
    Participant

    I know someone who felt like that. Her husbands Rav was smart enough to tell him to not pressure her. B”H they now have a very nice mishpacha. For most people the natural instinct kicks in at some point especially if they get married and are surrounded by their peers who do have children.

    #1299786

    Pinchas
    Participant

    Lower, why not?

    I dated a woman who after a bunch of dates expressed that she doesn’t want kids. Think we could of saved time and money knowing an important detail like that ahead of time. It’s foolish to hide this stuff and pretend it won’t matter.

    #1299787

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Have you spoken to a woman in real life who specifically and verbally expressed said feelings?

    I have a friend (not Jewish) who has stated very clearly that she does not want to have children. My response?

    Nothing.

    It’s her choice. She doesn’t need someone else to make up her mind for her or “convince” her that she’s “wrong.” She’s old enough and smart enough to know what she wants for herself.

    The Wolf

    #1299809

    Joseph
    Participant

    This isn’t a matter a person has the nilly willy right to decide what they like better and go with that.

    #1299938

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Have you spoken to a woman in real life who specifically and verbally expressed said feelings?”

    Yes. Her reason. She is busy living life for herself and furthering her enjoyment and pleasure, and doesnt want kids to get in the way of that pursuit. She is very vocal about this. she expresses it every time someone in the company has a baby, or mentions their kids (especially in the context of having to take care of them, such as, I took my son to doctor). She is overall a very self centered person.

    #1299940

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Yes, more than once
    BUT, as a family law attorney, it would be expected, as one partner deciding or revealing after marriage that they did not want children often leads to divorce.

    #1299947

    Pinchas: I don’t understand your question. The OP wants to know what someone would say to the woman. I replied that I wouldn’t say anything to her and I gave my reason why I wouldn’t say anything to her. I added that I would say something to a potential shidduch.

    #1300033

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Why would you expect women to want their own children?

    #1300007

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Being able to conceive and bear a child is a blessing. And it’s never a sure thing until the baby is born healthy, so it should never be taken for granted. The tzaar of someone who wants kids but cant bear them is overwhelming.

    BUT

    I must take issue with those who consider it an “affront to Hashem” if a woman does not want to bear children. Simply put, you have no idea why such a feeling is expressed. The individual may have suffered a trauma, or abuse, or neglect as a child or young adult that makes the thought of raising a child into a world where she has suffered so much an abhorrent thought. The individual may simply be terrified at the responsibility.

    Pirkei Avos says in the second perek not to judge another until you have been in their place. Hillel Hazokein said it! I can not see how anyone can bring themselves to argue with this. Not only becasue it is the wisdom of Hillel Hazokein, but also because of the obvious logic of it.

    So, those of you who feel it is an affront, who are you or any of us to judge that? Have you walked in her shoes? Doesn’t HKBH rule with compassion and understanding?

    So what would I say to her? I would say that I pray that HKBH brings her happiness and fulfillment in her life.

    #1300058

    Pinchas
    Participant

    Lower, sorry. I misread your response. Agree with you 100%.

    (I read “wouldn’t” when you clearly wrote “would share it”.

    #1300843

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I’m not really sure what the point of such a question in such a forum would be. Obviously women who feel that way about something so unbelievable personal aren’t going to bare their souls here, and if speculating becomes judgemental, what good can come of that? This doesn’t sound like a good question for mixed company, let alone anonymous mixed company on the internet.

    #1301079

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    RebYidd23, that is another thing – Maybe it’s just assumed that every single Jewish woman desires to have her own children

    #1301093

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Syag Lchochma: I hear you, and I know that you care – so thank you! And the good news is that there is no need to know the “point” because this question is multi-dimensional and brings light to an extremely important matter – family! relationships! children! health! – Torah!

    I’m asking here because I don’t have religious friends around the world, let alone mixed genders, ages, and backgrounds to ask in person or via email/text/etc. On top of that, if I did have frum friends around the world, then they’d still need to feel comfortable sharing such personal information – which is more complicated off the internet. Please judge me favorably.

    Not all women who don’t want children want to hide in the dark – nor do they want to be shushed up, in real life and the internet.

    btw…..

    Yichusdik:::: THANK YOU *infinity* percent!!! 🙂

    Thank you for your voice, and explaining very real reasons that may hinder a woman from desiring children!

    I really appreciate you for putting that out there – out here 🙂 🙂 🙂

    ——-

    Thanks everyone 🙂

    #1301125

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    it’s not about judging when someone doesn’t like a question or doesn’t feel it is appropriate for the CR. I don’t need to judge you favorably because I’m not judging you at all. I just have an opinion on what I believe to be appropriate topics to discuss in mixed company or online and what potential pitfalls I forsee.

    #1301194

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    A woman who chooses to have children usually discusses them openly.

    #1301215

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    SL: Fair enough 💖

    #1301224

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    syag
    “Obviously women who feel that way about something so unbelievable personal aren’t going to bare their souls here, a…, let alone anonymous …”

    Thats interesting, I had the exact opposite thought.
    I had thought how useful this forum is, as this is somehting most people may not feel comfortbale discussing in person, yet they may want other perspectives, which makes an anonymous forum absolutly perfect

    #1301247

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    ubiq – great point and there was a time when I would have agreed with you completely. I used to post very personal thoughts here and always felt like it was just the place for that. Things have changed though and I couldn’t see myself risking it. Lately it seems expressing different views, or differing views results in being called judgemental, not frum, negative etc. If I think women should have choice I’ll be a torah hater and a feminist. If I say it isn’t the women’s choice I’m closed minded and judgemental. No, I just don’t see it that way anymore. but I do agree with you completely that there was a time when you would have been right on the money.

    #1301280

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Syag

    Many people on various anonymous internet forums discuss taboo subjects that they would never discuss in real life. Things they feel strongly about , but cannot discuss because of social pressures.

    While this forum is general debate about relgious topics, there was nothing IMO wrong with OP’s post just maybe a lit out of character compared to other posts

    #1301290

    Meno
    Participant

    I think what’s bothering Syag is that lightbrite said “infinity percent”, and Syag knows that infinty is not a number, so that term makes no sense.

    Do I understand correctly?

    #1301294

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Syag

    I wasnt arguing this is the perfect example of “to eaCH their own” (regarding the posting vs non-posting).

    “Lately it seems expressing different views, or differing views results in being called judgmental, not frum, negative etc. If I think women should have choice I’ll be a torah hater and a feminist.”

    People act differently online and in real life this has both pluses (as some views that people may not feel comfortable expressing can be given a platform) and minuses (the real problem of cyber bullying)

    It is important to take everything online with a heaping mound of salt. People arent who they say they are posters have claimed to be health professionals when they clearly arent, even genders arent always clear. thats why I find the expression ask your LOR strange. Nobody should ever take any real advice from a random online source whether medcial , halachic or personal. Most people know this but come here to bounce ideas of each other. And make no mistake, I have had fantastic discussions
    I doubt anybody who feels like having children may not be for them goes to an online forum reads “It is an affront to Hashem, who is the One who decides whom to give children to.” and decides ok I guess Im going to go have as many children as I can. Joseph knows this too. It is part of his online persona though to throw in these “charedi sounding views” whenever he can. I doubt in person he would say the same if asked, as he may or may not be like “Joseph” in real life.

    the same goes for name-calling “judgmental, not frum, negative etc. …torah hater and a feminist.” It is important to keep in mind the adage “On the Internet, nobody knows you’re a dog” which existed from the early days of the internet in 93 and is even more true today. That by know means makes it easy to ignore, and cyber-bullying is a real problem (not one that I have been innocent of) but it is important remember that the comments arent always real.

    #1301370

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    meno – exactly. you seem to have amazing insight.

    #1301388

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    ubiq- thank you. I like your post too much to bother dissecting it (with comments, not rebuttals).

    I think part of what I was saying, besides what you touched on already, is that I don’t enjoy controversy or arguments (I would never make it in the bais medrash). Five years ago I could bring up a topic, and how I reacted to it ,and how I felt about my reaction, and I know that I would get empathy, chizuk, differing opinions and probably different ways to view the situation. To me, those discussions were what I was looking for, needing, appreciating from my anonymous online peers. If the response is to assess and comment on my thought, or politicize the viewpoint, I may not take it personally but I won’t find it enjoyable or purposeful. It won’t fulfil any personal purpose. Which is my own reasoning for not sharing, but on certain subjects if I know someone ELSE will share, EXPECTING that chizuk and empathy on such a personal topic but might not know that they may end up with a slam, I worry about THAT person.

    And on the other hand I am concerned by the laxity of some posters who will condone free choice in areas that the Torah does not allow. (As I have seen do much harm to friends who visit other ‘jewish’ websites)

    I don’t know if this is clear. It’s hard to explain these types of emotions. I am guessing those who experienced it themselves may know what I am talking about.

    thanks again

    #1301396

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    and by the way, I’m a marmoset

    #1301432

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Syag

    Its better to talk about taboo subjects in a torah place, than a non-torah place

    Its not being lax, its being realistic . Would you rather the question be asked on an atheist Pro-femist , Population control website instead?

    When people cant discuss the topics that concern them they will look for places that will discuss them

    #1301446

    Meno
    Participant

    Syag,

    Thanks. Believe it or not, I was bothered by that as well.

    #1301445

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    ZD- that’s not what I am referring to. When someone discusses a halachik topic, there are people who come on saying, “Oh that’s just a chumra. I know five people who got heterim for that when they told their rav they get headaches thinking about it” or “don’t forget to tell the rov you are sensitive, he may paskin differently” The idea that comes across to some people is that Halacha can be manipulated or relaxed if I REALLY don’t want to do it or THINK I can’t or maybe just because. It is a slippery slope to people who are feeling overwhelmed by life and instead of getting help (any type) to learn balance, they start to key in on all these loopholes. Or even if you don’t want to call it a loophole, we don’t window shop halachik advice. I have read even here that you should go to a different rov for different types of things when that is not at all appropriate for Halacha. And someone struggling with that may latch on to that and run with it.

    does that mean nobody should talk about anything or bring up that there are different views on things ?
    NO!!!!! It doesn’t. But there are some topics that are too prone to damage. And there are a lot of people using online forums to find good loopholes and excuses that they didn’t even know where there and then they grab them. This really is a different topic altogether, and I know we have discussed it before. Just trying to clarify that I wasn’t talking about any situation like you mentioned above.

    #1301456

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    People love to say how Chumras are great and dont see the back side of them. Some people do erase the lines between Halacha and Chumra and mess everything up and it is a bigger problem than some are willing to admit.

    Telling you Rav EVERYTHING that is pertinent is very important

    #1301450

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Syag
    “I don’t know if this is clear.”

    Completely!
    We are coming from slightly different places as you “don’t enjoy controversy or arguments (I would never make it in the bais medrash)” and That is precisely what draws me here, as I miss the bais medrash. But I completely get what you are saying

    And I agree putting down a poster who seemed to be looking for “chizuk and empathy on such a personal topic” is not the time for argument and put downs.

    Unfortunately though it is to be expected, so if that can be ignored (easier said than done) their may be some empathy/chizuk that can be provided

    edited (for some of the reasons mentioned above)

     

    #1301478

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    zd-

    People love to say how Chumras are great and dont see the back side of them. Some people do erase the lines between Halacha and Chumra and mess everything up and it is a bigger problem than some are willing to admit.

    see, here’s the problem. I agree with you, and always have, that making too many chumros and presenting them as halachos is a problem and can do damage to chinuch and to people who find out there was a misrepresentation of a chumro as Halacha. But then you always go that one step further and make comments alluding to chumros being a problem in general. People who make no chumros and live on the fence are prone to find too many kulas as well, which you should also be complaining about. I found that to be a problem as well. BOTH are a problem, though hard to get some to admit it.

    Telling you Rav EVERYTHING that is pertinent is very important

    telling the rov everything is indeed very important. Agreed. But sometimes it has been phrased here in a way to imply that you should tell him so that you can get a weaker ruling. It’s more an attitude deficiency than a presentation of facts. My rov, actually, will usually ask me my feelings since it is important for the ruling.

    #1301526

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    This forum is moderated, and I don’t know what the rules are about marmosets, but I don’t care what species you are as long as you respect mine.

    #1301647

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I heard a Posek who answers questions both in person and online and he said the online anonymous questions were of a very different nature than the in person ones. The questions he got online are the type he never go before as in person posek and he didnt think those people would ask these questions if there wasnt an anonymous online forum

    People will ask the Rav in person if the pot is Kosher, but they much rarer ask the taboo question in person.

    #1301665

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    then maybe they need to work on themselves a bit.

    #1301675

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    No I dont think so

    A simple example, If someone is having emunah issues and thinks they dont believe. Many will not go to the Rosh Yeshiva and say that, but online they would tell the Rav.

    Or if they commited an “Averiah” they might ask online about it, but would never tell the rav

    #1301680

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    and i’m telling you that you should have the kind of relationship with your rav where you wouldn’t have that problem

    #1301746

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    “Should” is not good enough.

    #1661638

    LOTR92
    Participant

    random bump

    #1662031

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    And many, perhaps too many times it turns out that it was only a chumra which he /she thought they were over. All along they thought it was actually halacha.

    #1662099

    1
    Participant

    Lib RadFems

    #1662167

    Amil Zola
    Participant

    “Obviously women who feel that way about something so unbelievable personal aren’t going to bare their souls here, a…, let alone anonymous …” It happens every week on frum women only closed forums. Of course non Jewish women are able to discuss this publicly if that is their choice, for the frum it must be in an anonymous context.

    #1662230

    Logicyid
    Participant

    There is no obligation in halacha for women to bear children. If she is honest and open about it, it is fine unless there is some dishonesty involved. There are a multitude of reasons and people should be understanding. if she remained unmarried or married to a man who is unable to bear children, it really is no problem at all. That being said, it would be an aveirah, i believe, if she married someone and prevented him from having at least one boy and one girl even if she was open about her feelings. But there may be “wiggle room”, not sure. Lmk if anyone has info about this scenario, halachally speaking.

    As a side note, yes it is a “blessing” but the long process of it was originally instituted as a punishment from Gan Eden.
    Regardless, put downs, judgey attitudes and loshon hara are always inappropriate.

    #1662261

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    just to clarify my comment which has been quoted a few times here but with a piece missing….


    “Obviously women who feel that way about something so unbelievable personal aren’t going to bare their souls here, a…, let alone anonymous …”

    when I said bare their souls here, I meant in mixed company. and I’m pretty sure my anonymous comment was on the people who don’t bother controlling their mouths when they respond because THEY are anonymous. if you read ubiquitin’s posts to me and my responses you will have a better understanding of what was going on at that time with some of the posters. It has calmed down a slight bit, but possibly because I got tired of being bullied and post on much rarer occasion.

    #1662251

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Unfortunately, it is more common for women to have children and for it to then become obvious that she didn’t want them.

    #1667150

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Though some perfect looking houses also have happy children!

    And some husbands help clean too!

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