He has a past, and she doesnt know. Or the other way around.

Home Forums Shidduchim He has a past, and she doesnt know. Or the other way around.

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  • #598976

    rfs
    Member

    My friend is engaged to someone who I know has a past. It doesn’t involve anything illegal according to gov’t, but it does involve many many halachically–illegal things. She has no idea… Should i tell her?

    This could happen to anyone! It worries me… Do girls/boys usually find out if the person they’re dating/engaged to/married to has a past??

    #804848

    Maybe he did Teshuva, at least that should be the assumption….

    #804849

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Why do you think she has no idea. Probably if they have an open relationship he has told her. And she doesn’t discuss it with you because it is none of your blazes business.

    And if they don’t have an open relationship, then they shouldn’t be getting married regardless of his past.

    #804850

    rfs
    Member

    Its possible he’s done teshuva, what with elul around the corner, but i know he’s “done stuff” as recently as last month.

    And it is possible she knows but very unlikely, as a)she has dated other boys who she KNEW had a past, and told me, and said no partly for that reason…

    b) not in reference to this girl, bit in general, this boy exoressed to me that he has no intention of revealing, as he was told by his “rosh yeshiva” not to tell. This same “rosh yeahiva” apparantly allows him to do many, many other things that are questionable…

    #804851

    Sam2
    Participant

    If you know, for an absolute fact, that he still does these things and that if she knew she wouldn’t marry him, then you tell her. But only if you know for an absolute fact that he still does these things. If it’s just a past then it’s a huge Shaila. Most say you don’t say anything, some say you should, ask you Rov.

    #804852

    Toi
    Participant

    this is too big for you. if its lisheim shomayim, ask someone who you trust(as in a posek) who also knows this boy very well. other then that stay out of it.

    #804853

    rosesharon
    Member

    I agree with Toi- many people have pasts and change however you should ask a Rov fast before the chupa, especially if it had to do with him being involved with drugs or “wandering around” so she does not have any health problems later, or if he behaved abusive or controlling. Those behaviors will not change and get worse over time.

    #804854

    bombmaniac
    Participant

    what would the toeles be? is it still nogeah?

    #804855

    rebbi1
    Participant

    Call the Shomrai Halashon hotline and ask them. This sounds like a real Shaila.

    #804856

    WIY
    Member

    Rfs

    Im not sure what you mean by “things” but if you know for a fact that the guy either still has connections to other girls or the guy has other problems that can impact a marriage (like a gambling addiction or other addictions) you have an obligation to tell her. Don’t be afraid of the consequences (the Shidduch may be broken) because a Shidduch under false pretense is a sham. The marriage will end in divorce as many others have where one side was still busy with their twisted past and wasn’t mature enough to move on and be a responsible spouse. I would consult a Rav first. No not his Rav but one who isn’t connected to either party so that he can give you a totally unbiased opinion.

    Maybe speak to Rabbi Wallerstein. He has a lot of experience with these things.

    #804857

    TorahsEmes
    Member

    I think the best solution would be a rov (or any respectable nonbiased person) who knows her. he can decide if he should tell her.

    #804858

    Mr Taxman
    Member

    “He has a Past” – sometimes that is out of our hands depending how we were rasied, and what type of yeshivahs our parents sent us too to hanging out in a wrong crowd. I personally believe in never judging a person on their past, but if you say that as recently as a month ago this person was still doing these things i think your friend should be alerted to the fact.

    Rabbonim never like to break a shidduch and will say things to make it happen – i have seen it many times and couples are unhappily married after getting the peer pressure from teh rabbonim.

    I would alert your friend and take it fromt there. I am sure everyone will have their own opinion.

    #804859

    Yatzmich
    Member

    Stay away, God runs the world.

    There was once a family in Bnei Brak that had 1 or 2 mentally unstable children. The parents went to the Chazon Ish and said that when people ask information about the other kids for shidduchim the neighbors always say it’s a crazy family. The Chazon Ish replied, “When the right one comes, the neighbors wont be home.”

    The bottom line is, every person has an oppurtunity to do their checking, and Hashem puts people together. We don’t know the cheshbonos and for sure once their engaged (Hashem has done his work) everybody else should stay out of it.

    #804860

    WIY
    Member

    Yatzmich

    “and for sure once their engaged (Hashem has done his work) everybody else should stay out of it.”

    Sorry but in Judaism the engagement is nothing. There is no Halachic Inyan that takes place and there’s no reason not to break it off if new information comes to light that wasn’t known or was hidden before. Your example from the Chazon ish has nothing to do with the case at hand where the actual boy has serious religious problems (not his siblings!)

    #804861

    Chein
    Member

    If there was tanayim, there is a legal obligation to get married.

    #804862

    adorable
    Participant

    dont get involved unless you speak to a rav that deals with these things. I have a personal freaky story about this but no time to write now… maybe tom! Just stay out of it unless they ask you!

    #804863

    WIY
    Member

    Chin

    Even then if circumstances arise that weren’t there before a Tnayim can be broken. Not sure the procedure.

    #804864

    Toi
    Participant

    i have a history. my wife might not have married me had she known. we’re happily married. tread carefully. get a psak. and get it from someone who knows where this guy is really hoding.

    #804865

    Chein
    Member

    Toi: What was your issue?

    #804866

    Toi
    Participant

    the general issues. not sharing specifics sorry. but you cant ever know someones matziv unless he tells you. dont jump to kill a shidduch if its water under the bridge; she’ll never know and it wont hurt her.

    #804867

    bein_hasdorim
    Participant

    If he has changed for real, then it is wrong to tell her,

    or anyone for that matter about his past. I know many happily married couples, some of them already marrying off their own kids,

    that the man had a past which he left for good. Men especially when they’re teens go through a little rough patch till they find their calm. I know a case where they asked a family friend of theirs about the boy before they made the L’chaim and this friend of kallahs family was aware of the boy’s past.

    They didn’t say anything other than he was a super nice guy, which he was at the time. Now B”H they are very happily married. He is still very much a Mentch and a very warm person.

    However If he’s currently a person that does things that if

    known to her she would not be interested, then he must tell her before. If that is not an option, You must ask a sheilah to an actual Rov, If you can and how to divulge this information.

    Do Not ask virtual Rov, or collective body of wannabe Poskim.

    Reb Moshe Paskens to a woman that she must tell her future husband

    about her past i’m not sure to what extent but that it is behind her. So I’m sure that this guy if he’s still not behaving properly

    he must be honest.

    #804868

    s2021
    Member

    What makes u think shell never know? How cld u know it will never hurt her?? He was doing something last month and she doesnt know about it?? That dont sound like no past! Please please PLEASE ask a shaila!!! (and not to HIS Rav) To whoever claims once the knot is tied its too late so haha on her.. I just hope u never have to xperience what the other side feels like- finding something out….

    #804869

    observanteen
    Member

    I too, had a “past”. I don’t want my chosson to know, and I probably won’t tell him everything after marriage. Nevertheless, I don’t think it’ll harm our sholom bayis. Those things are literally my “past” and I let it stay there. I live in the present and in the future, so I won’t return there.

    I think you have to find out where this guy is up to. Perhaps have a talk with him. See where he’s headed to and what his goal is in life. If you see that it is indeed bad and not suited for the girl, ask a shaila.

    #804870

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    <rant> I’m a bit surprised by some of the views in this thread.

    I don’t understand how you can have a relationship with your spouse and be hiding elements of yourself from them. It doesn’t matter if it is in your past or in your future; it is part of you.

    If you are afraid to tell your spouse something, that means she doesn’t have a relationship with you. She has a relationship with the person she thinks you are. I don’t want someone to have a relationship with ME.

    I don’t see the purpose of such a relationship. You don’t get anything out of it, because you think that if your wife knew who you were she would reject you.

    Well, why would you want a wife who rejects you? </rant>

    #804871

    WIY
    Member

    popa_bar_abba

    If the person changed, then they arent who they were in the past. That makes the past irrelevant to the present and future. Just like we dont hold against a person what they did as a child same thing if someone made some mistakes and learned from them and GREW from them then the past has no relevance.

    I dont know why you think a wife or husband has to know everything about their spouse. Maybe we should just turn on a camcorder when people are born and have it follow them around every second of every day so they can give it to their spouse to watch once they are married?

    A healthy spouse only cares about who you are inside. They love you for who you are and what you have become. What you have done in the past is between you and Hashem.

    #804872

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    If the person changed, then they arent who they were in the past. That makes the past irrelevant to the present and future. Just like we dont hold against a person what they did as a child same thing if someone made some mistakes and learned from them and GREW from them then the past has no relevance.

    This isn’t about blame or about holding it against them. You should want to be open with your spouse. You should want to share your struggles. You shouldn’t be afraid of rejection.

    I dont know why you think a wife or husband has to know everything about their spouse.

    I’ll put it this way: If you think your spouse would reject you if she knew things about you, then she doesn’t really love you or respect you, she rejects you. She is married to a phantom creature of her imagination. I don’t want my wife to marry a phantom; I want her to be married to me.

    A healthy spouse only cares about who you are inside. They love you for who you are and what you have become.

    Agreed. Which is why you should not be afraid to tell her. Because if you are afraid to tell her, it means you think she does not only care about who you are inside.

    Besides, I don’t believe that things in your past have no influence on who you are. If you have overcome things and grown from them, they are part of you in that way.

    #804873

    observanteen
    Member

    “I’ll put it this way: If you think your spouse would reject you if she knew things about you, then she doesn’t really love you or respect you, she rejects you.”

    That’s not true. They reject your DEED, not YOU.

    “Agreed. Which is why you should not be afraid to tell her. Because if you are afraid to tell her, it means you think she does not only care about who you are inside.”

    There’s no “fear”. I wouldn’t be afraid my husband would walk out on me if I told him my past. Nevertheless, there’s no reason to shake him up. Why bring up such painful memories? Those “things” are behind me. They’re not part of me anymore. I’ve done teshuva and constantly ask for mechila by selach lanu. Do you share with your husband your exact medical history? Pricesly when you had the flu, a cold or a virus? Why is this any different (if you’ve changed, that is).

    “Besides, I don’t believe that things in your past have no influence on who you are. If you have overcome things and grown from them, they are part of you in that way.”

    Absolutely. But why not let your spouse see that you’re mature and grew up? Why do they have to know the cause?

    #804874

    MDG
    Participant

    For those who say let bygones be bygones, this guy does not have just “a past”. He has a present problem (assuming he did it last month). This problem will likely carry into the marriage.

    Besides speaking with an objective Rav (i.e. not his), see if you can verify his bad behavior.

    #804875

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Observanteen: Sorry, I do not understand your way of thinking.

    You’re still seeing this from a perspective of what the other wants or needs to know. I’m seeing it from what I want and need (for myself) to tell.

    I want to tell because this is supposed to be the person I can always tell.

    I want to tell because I want her to understand what I’ve been through. To understand me.

    I want to tell because I want a relationship where I’m accepted completely. With every aspect of my past present and future.

    #804876

    If it’s in the past, and he has changed, then there is no point to discuss it…With teshuva done out of love for Hashem, Averas can be turned into Mitzvahs….

    However, if the past, is also the present…then the Kallah has every right to know.

    #804877

    observanteen
    Member

    popa, I don’t want to reveal here my entire past. All I can say is that it isn’t pretty. I don’t know you or your past, so I can’t judge whether or not it’s the right thing to do. All I can say is that I definitely will share my past with him, but I will probably not discuss some issues. I hear your point about being loved, and I appreciate your concern, but I don’t feel that way. I used to be someone who dwelled and dwelled on the past. Now, I’m in the present and future. There’s no point in re-living those horrible moments when I don’t have to. To me, if he loves me for the wife and mother I’ll be today, it’s enough to prove that he truly loves me.

    In any case, feel free to do as you wish;)

    #804878

    mytake
    Member

    I would be extremely hurt to find out that my husband has “a past” that he felt he couldn’t share with me. Even though he put it behind him/changed/improved, it’s still a part of his life and something that helped him become the person he is.

    I would never want to be too afraid or uncomfortable to share any past experience with my husband. Even if it’s something I’m not proud of…

    I’m not saying that anyone who feels that they can’t (or shouldn’t) is making a mistake. But I daven that I should marry someone who can understand me on a level where sharing my past will not in any way lessen the respect and appreciation he has for me.

    Notice that I said “husband” and not chosson. That’s because as long as it’s truly in the past, I wouldn’t be upset if my chosson waited till after we’re married to share it with me.

    #804879

    Toi
    Participant

    mytake-thats because tou saaume your image of him wont be tarnished by past deeds. thjink of the worst possible thing you can imagine. imagine he did it. now he has changed,not just his actions but his pnimius too. he is no longer the same person. im sure ypu agree with me in theory, but when it comes limaaseh its simply not so easy. therefore, IF, as i said b4, IF she wont find out, and it wont effect their marriage, why risk diminishing him in her eyes for a matter of no consequence.

    #804880

    mytake
    Member

    Toi, before I respond to your post I just wanna repeat what I wrote in my last post: I’m not saying that anyone who feels that they cannot or should not share past deeds that they aren’t proud of is wrong. It’s possible that for some people it’s just too embarrassing or scary to let their spouse see the ugly side of a past they’d much rather forget about.

    I am simply saying, though, that I:

    1. Wouldn’t risk having my husband find out on his own. You never know….

    2. Can’t imagine myself being happyily married to a guy who I’m not comfortable enough with to share my past with. And that includes the bad and the ugly too. It’s over and gone but it’s a part of my life (and chances are it had a lot to do with becoming the person I am today) that I would need him to understand.

    I took a minute to imagine the worst possible thing (actually, a few things came to mind),and I changed my mind about the waiting-till-after-marriage thing. I would definitely want to know before, so I can decide if I’m ready to share a life with this person. I understand that if it was me, I’d be very hurt if I was rejected because of a serious misdeed that I’ve already done Tshuva for, but I would also have to understand that actions have consequences. I would have to take responsiblity for my actions and that includes living with the consequences. This goes for the “worst things I can imagine”. But, again, that’s me. I’m not saying everyone should.

    #804881

    Toi
    Participant

    imagine your fifteen. you do the stupidest thing you can imagine. imagine that being held against you five to ten years later. youv grown up. your a different person. why.

    #804882

    rfs
    Member

    After he stops doing whatever it was, the fifteen year old might be tempted, and overcome that temptation. Eventually, he is not even tempted! He may look back and think, “I dont know WHAT possessed me to do that!” As soon as this behavior becomes completely unappealing to him, I’d say he is a different person–because he no longer has even the urge to behave like that.

    But. The situation I brought up is not a one time thing, when he is fifteen.

    Most people dont hold it against them from the age of 15, but older–around 19, 20 when he/she should have been a LOT more responsible and mature.

    #804883

    mytake
    Member

    Fifteen year olds do lots of stupid things and then grow up and wish they didn’t. Even though it’s irreversible (and can be very, very difficult for a spouse to hear), I can live with that knowledge, and give my spouse the support and encouragement to continue heading in the right direction. I would never hold it against them if they’ve truly done Tshuva.

    Unless you’re talking about murder/rape/molestation which is a whole different story. Here, he did irreversible damage to SOMEONE ELSE. But as long as he did horrible things that only HE has to live with, I can be there to make living with it easier. That’s my job as a wife.

    #804884

    mytake
    Member

    rfs, Like many posters said, I think you need to ask Daas Torah on your particular situation.

    #804885

    Chein
    Member

    What, exactly, is “irreversible”?

    #804886

    mytake
    Member

    Chein, crossing the line with relationships with the opposite gender, for example.

    #804887

    Chein
    Member

    Okay, if that is what is being talked about it makes a difference if we are talking about a boy or a girl. If it is a girl, she gets a different Kesubah and the Choson must know about it beforehand, otherwise the marriage (even if takes place) may be invalid retroactively.

    #804888

    well…I guess in order to comment properly we should at least know what the is person is/was involved with..

    #804889

    CR 1
    Member

    When you do teshuva you are not the same person who did the averos because you changed, its deep it was last weeks parsha by the Vilna Goan

    #804890

    mytake
    Member

    Let’s assume we’re talking about a boy, or a girl who didn’t yet cross the line but definitely had a relationship.

    #804891

    Chein
    Member

    My previous point was about a girl who crossed the line.

    #804892

    Toi
    Participant

    k this isnt going to good places. MODS!

    #804893

    aries2756
    Participant

    rfs, if you already discussed this with the Chosson and he said that his RY told him he doesn’t have to tell about his past but yet you have seen him do the same things that were supposed to “stay” in his past and yet is still in his present then maybe you should speak to the Kallah’s Rav and have him speak to the chosson’s RY. Let the two of them figure out what to do in this situation. The Kallah’s Rav obviously will want and need to do what is best for her and her family and will take this seriously, knowing how the Kallah feels about what she is looking for in a mate. He will know how to approach the RY and then together will figure out whether the Chosson should reveal to the Kallah his true personality or the Rav should tell the Kallah and her family that the shidduch should not continue.

    You should definitely NOT be the one to tell the Kallah anything at this point.

    #804894

    amama
    Participant

    Get in touch with a Rav immediately and tell him the whole story. If your friend gets married and then divorced, you’ll feel guilty AND if she finds out that you knew, you lost her. this is not only a “past” thing this is a “present” thing. Any Rav that is open-minded and not only on his side. Many Rosh Yeshivas are learning slowly that it doesnt help “covering up.” Couples are getting divorced left and right because things were covered up.

    #804895

    amama
    Participant

    and please let us know the “end of the story…”

    #804896

    minyan gal
    Member

    I’m with PBA on this one. I think that they should each know everything about each other – from major illness to acts of stupidity or illegality. Nowadays it is a very small world. You never know when your past can come back to haunt you. Imagine being married for several years and you bump into somebody from your past who assumes that your spouse knows everything about you. Suddenly this person starts reminiscing. “Do you remember the time that we did…….?”. A chance meeting such as this could be the start of the dissolution of a marriage. Marriage is an institution that should be based on trust. If there are too many skeltons in the closet, problems will almost certainly arise – the only question is when. While it may be painful and embarassing, it is far better to cancel a wedding than to go through a divorce years later when it will affect not only a spouse but young children, as well.

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