Hechsherim in Israel

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  • #1733522

    lakewhut
    Participant

    Why does it have to be so complicated? In America, people don’t go as crazy and the standards of hechsherim that people rely on can be just as good as a rabbinate in Israel.

    #1734020

    Joseph
    Participant

    In Eretz Yisroel more people are machmir. In America you have many people who are meikel.

    #1734132

    TomimTihyeh
    Participant

    Maran the Rishon Letzion says that the Eidah Hachareidis is the WORST POSSIBLE hashgacha for meat (not chicken).

    #1734164

    lakewhut
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Why do the Americans in Israel go crazy? Do they have a reason or do they just follow the crowd?

    #1734178

    TT: I believe you left out two important words “for sephardim”.

    WATCH: Rav Yitzchok Yosef Says Eida Chareidis Meat is Among the Lowest Hechsherim for Sephardim

    #1734237

    TomimTihyeh
    Participant

    Lowerourtuition – if you watch the video, he doesnt actually say those two words. Not sure why the writer of the article added them.

    #1734245

    Joseph
    Participant

    So what he doesn’t say it. His clientele are Sephardim. Obviously the Gedolei Rabbonim shlita of the Badatz in Yerushalayim hold that the Eida Chareidus is the best hechesher.

    It also happends to be most kosher consumers in Eretz Yisroel rely on the Eida Chareidus as the gold-standard of hechsheirim. It has, by far, the widest acceptance. And is run by some of the greatest gedolim.

    #1734977

    jdb
    Participant

    It’s not complicated. There are just more choices. If you are a machmir, you will have the highest standards. If you want the basics, you ate more than covered. And every level in between is accommodated.

    BH we have so many Jews in EY that want to keep kosher!

    If you have any questions, ask an American in EY that you identify with about their standards. Lots of options.

    #1734962

    TomimTihyeh
    Participant

    Joseph – so you’re saying that the Rabbonim of the Eidah Hachareidis hold the Eidah Hachareidis hechsher to be acceptable? And that for that reason we should accept it, despiteothers disagreeing? Wow, I hadn’t realized that! So when Belzer meat was essentially treif, we should have eaten it because the Rabbonim of the Belz Badatz said it was good! And (lehavdil) everybody in this forum should accept that Chassidus Chabad and all of its minhogim are the correct way to go, because that’s what the Rebbe Melech Hamoshiach Shlita said! Have you ever heard of a self-referential loop? Or circular reasoningn

    #1734984

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why lehavdil?

    #1735004

    ZVIKA
    Participant

    anybody who is familiar with kashrus knows that the standards of eidah charadis is # 1 no matter to witch kahilah he belongs. Rav Yosef is repeating an decades old argument that the meat [and wine] is not glatt according to the beit yosef’. these arguments were claimed to be false by rav shterenbauch and many other rabanim.

    #1735008

    Joseph
    Participant

    TT: You’re saying that the Sefardic rabbis of the Sefardic hechsher think that their hechsher is best. What a momentous thought.

    Meanwhile the majority of Klal Yisroel in Eretz Yisroel accepts the Eida hechsher as the gold standard unlike any other.

    #1735096

    TomimTihyeh
    Participant

    Joseph – you missed the boat. The Rishon Letziyon was not saying that the Sefardic hechsher is the best, he was saying that among ALL THE HECHSHERIM, whether Sefardi or Ashkenazi, the Eidah is the worst FOR MEAT ONLY. Do you understand the difference now?

    #1735273

    Joseph
    Participant

    TT: For the umpteenth time, that is because the Sefardim have a different shitta in regards to meat than Ashkenazim, and Sefardim don’t consider Ashkenazic meat to be glatt even though Ashkenazim do.

    This is an old story.

    #1735509

    TomimTihyeh
    Participant

    Joseph: for the umpteenth time, that would make sense if he said all Ashkenazic hechsherim are subpar. Since he singled out the Eidah as being the worst, that must not be his intention.

    #1735516

    Joseph
    Participant

    He singled out the Eida since the Eida is his own affiliated hechsher’s biggest competition and threat since even most Sefardim look at the Eida as the gold standard. And he wants to shake that view due to the aforementioned difference in halachic opinion regarding meat between Ashkenazim and Sefardim, that he obviously and legitimately subscribes to being a Sefardic leader.

    #1736110

    lakewhut
    Participant

    jdb,

    Then why would machmir people who eat OU/Star-K not eat Rabbanut

    #1736208

    jdb
    Participant

    @lakewut

    Rabbanut it kosher. They don’t keep the same chumras as OU (e.g. glatt). And OU doesn’t keep the chumras of the Rabbanut (e.g. chadash, chalav akum when it’s not powdered).

    These are apples and oranges. The OU is also more centralized and standards are enforced uniformly. The Rabbanut is more decentralized more like a local vaad hakashrus, where each area goes by the rabbanim of their area, with national minimum standards and local enforcement.

    #1736204

    searchin345
    Participant

    Lakwhut, because the OU and Stark K only certify glatt meat, that has become the basic standard in the US. The Rabanut also certifies non-glatt meat. There are other kulas that the Rabanut relies on that aren’t widley relied upon in the US.
    On the other hand, there are kulas that are relied upon in America which aren’t accepted in Israel. For example, even the worst Rabanut is machmir for Yoshon (even for things produced out of Israel).
    That’s why many Israelis won’t even think about touching anything with an OU on it (I heard some Israeli Rabanim say better to eat Rabanut than OU).
    Basically, it all depends on the kulas that you are used to reliying on as opposed to what you aren’t used to relying on…

    #1736330

    Thinking out loud
    Participant

    searchin345:
    Please don’t attack me for not providing a sources, I’m not as learned as many here.

    If i say something halachic on a forum, then i definitely have heard it from somebody who is clearly a talmid chochom, and baki b’ halacha. In this case i can’t remember who it was, but it made a roshem. Generally, i am more of a skeptic.

    Maybe everyone else knows this , but
    I have only recently learned that Yashan in Eretz Yisrael is not a chumra.

    Outside of EY, it is still considered a chumra to refrain from chadash, because there are significant chilukei dayos haposkim of whether it applies. I don’t think there’s much disagreement that eating only yashan is REQUIRED in Eretz Yisrael. That applies to food that grew there, AND [If understood this correctly] also to food that you bring in, if you’re going to eat it there! (The sandwich you didn’t end up eating on the plane). You do have the option of holding on to your (crackers?) and eat them once you have left the holy Land. And… food that is chodosh, that grew in E.Y. has no special requirement to be avoided outside E.Y. (unless of course you are following the chumra of eating only yoshon outside of E.Y.)

    If you are frum, you are quite likely to have learned that there are special halachos that apply to food in E.Y. As a Torah observant jew, if you go to E.Y., it is up to you to prepare, and learn how to follow the halachos that pertain only to there. You should find about them from the outset, or immediately upon arriving there.(You probably DO make sure to check the weather forecast before you go, not leaving it up to chance!). It shouldn’t be up to the OU to notify you that INSIDE E.Y., you must eat only yoshon, no matter where it comes from. For such issues, kashrus is highly dependent on how and where a product is consumed.

    Regarding milk powder, Rav Moshe Feinstein’s psak about chalav yisroel affects how we look at the issue. For those not in the U.S.A., it is a far different matter. There apparently is strong reason to conclude that although chalav yisroel is non-negotiable (outside of the U.S., where Reb Moshe’s psak has any significance at all), milk powder as a substance is changed so drastically in the process, that for some reason it no longer requires to be of a chalav yisroel source for some reason – I don’t remember the details.

    #1736368

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Thinking out loud, it depends on where it’s grown, not eaten.

    There may be minhag hamakom in Eretz Yisroel not to rely on the lenient opinions relied upon in America and Europe, but that’s a different matter.

    As far as powdered milk, many poskim discussed it. Famously, Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank was mattir, and interestingly, he was actually referring to milk powder which came from the US.

    The Chazon Ish argues on the powdered milk Kula (although was mattir based on the sevara of the Pri Chodosh). I’ve seen a couple of sources that the Chazon Ish was only mattir under very difficult circumstances.

    #1736606

    Nechomah
    Participant

    I would be interested to know who says that a product with a Rabbanut hechsher on it is makpid on yoshon. As far as I have always know, only Badatz and possibly the mehadrin hechsherim like Shearis and Rubin, are makpid to give their hechsher only on a yoshon product.

    Products that are yoshon in chutz la’aretz have a notation about that status near the hechsher. There is a Rav Herman, who was recently niftar, who created a whole guide on products and when they would become chodosh, investigating thousands of products to find out their status and putting out a guide for those interested parties, free of charge.

    A Rabbanut of Israel stamp on a product produced in chutz la’aretz has no more assurance of its chodosh/yoshon status than the original hechsher. A prime example would be granola bars from Nature Valley sold here in EY. You would have to refer to the chodosh guide to find out when those products began using chodosh products in order to know whether they are still yoshon.

    If anybody has conflicting information on what I have written, please advise.

    #1736702

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    I don’t know why nobody is really addressing the OP’s question.

    There are many halachos that apply only in eretz Yisroel. The Rabbanut and other sub-par hechsherim are very meikel on these and thus most of the frum velt does not hold of them. L’maaseh they ARE much more meikel than the OU, so I don’t know why you keep making that analogy. From my understanding, the Rabbanut and Beit Yosef hechsherim are worse than anything we have in the US, including triangle K. It’s not just people being crazy.

    Having been around around the CR block a few times, I have a feeling this was not the answer the OP wanted. I could be wrong, but these threads usually end up being a thinly veiled argument that everyone should just be super meikel and eat borderline treif so that the poster will feel more comfortable with himself.

    #1739235

    Rebbe Yid
    Participant

    Rav Herschel Schechter was giving a shiur and mentioned that the OU was certifying something for the rabbanut from European wheat and the rabbanut insists it be yoshon.

    #1740073

    Toi
    Participant

    Rabbanut is a garbage hechsher, if you can even call it that. They rubber stamp anything with the shvachest hechsher from america, yoshon or not. Every american chocolate bar (twix, etc.) carries a rabbanut, as do products arriving from the US with nothing but a triangle K- again- rubber stamped by the rabbanut. Anyone who has some silly notion that the plain Rabbanut is a hechsher in anything but name is simply ignorant of the facts on the ground. The rabbanut is so bad that a Rov I know personally as being a tremendous meikel in every area of halachah told someone to kasher their pot when they realized they’d used fleishig rabbanut chicken soup mix. The only people in IL who eat Rabbanut are either not frum or beshitta crazy. The only people who eat it from the US are either ignorant or beshitta crazy. No one, and I mean literally no one, holds plain rabbanut is a hechsher in any respect. I’ve written a lengthy response before as to why. In short, the rabbanut was developed to be a most minimal standard from a legal perspective, so that people could not legally hang up a kosher sign and serve you meat they shot in the head. The body who formed it realized that the people whom they were targeting would not comply with anything approaching rigorous standards, so they purposely made it a terrible hechsher so that at least you couldn’t be served actual tarfus. Only a fool eats rabbanut- it is literally someich on shittos yachids and kulos that are well outside the accepted spectrum of halachah.

    #1740101

    Chaver
    Participant

    I have an acquaintance who works as a mashgiach for the regular Rabbanut and Rabbanut Mehadrin.
    He said that he would not eat from the regular Rabbanut. Rabbanut mehadrin he told me he would eat only after speaking to the Mashgiach and making sure that the particular product that he wants to eat in this particular establishment is up to par.

    #1740120

    rational
    Participant

    “…thinly veiled argument that everyone should just be super meikel and eat borderline treif ”

    OU, Rabbanut, Triangle K, and maybe other hechsherim that I missed being mentioned going around the CR block a few times are apparently the reference point in this statement.

    Implying that any one of these hechsherim is borderline treif is quite a heavy accusation, and seriously weakens the argument. If one wants to be taken seriously, it’s best to stick to verifiable facts and avoid the hyperbole.

    #1740229

    lakewhut
    Participant

    So, twix has an OU. How’s that different than Rabbanut?

    #1740236

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “OU, Rabbanut, Triangle K, and maybe other hechsherim that I missed being mentioned going around the CR block a few times are apparently the reference point in this statement.”

    I can’t tell if you’re truly uneducated on the topic, or if you’re purposely stacking your argument in a dishonest way. As you can see here, the Rabbanut is not comparable to the other hechshers you mention. By putting it in the same breath as the OU, you either don’t know what you’re talking about, or you’re trying to create a straw man argument. This is not a thread about the OU’s standards; as I said before, they are not comparable.

    Saying the Rabbanut hechsher (alone) is borderline treif is not a chiddush or extreme statement at all. That’s completely mainstream. It’s a hechsher only for “traditional” Israelis. Nobody here should be seriously considering it.

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