December 2, 2010 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #593301
Hello, I worked for several years as a designer for tniuz (chassidish) clothes in israel, now as we move to BA,and our financial situation is quite hard, I am offered a job designing non-tznius clothes to sell to goyim.
It is permissible for me to design pritzus clothing even when they are going to be sell to goyim?They say I can work from my home, so there is not the issue of male co-workers. Our rabbi is out of town so cannot ask him.
I really would like your opinion.December 2, 2010 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #721946
Call a rov.
Can some posters post the phone numbers of poskim they call?
You can email Rabbi Eidlitz from LA at [email protected]December 2, 2010 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #721947arcParticipant
this is way beyond the scope of the board.
EDITEDDecember 2, 2010 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #721948
You can even manufacture christian crosses to sell to goyim.December 2, 2010 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #721949aries2756Participant
Why not design stylish clothing that are not pritzus? For instance it can be fitted but not necessarily cut out? It can have 3/4 sleeves or up to the elbow. The skirt length can be to the knee or just below.
Why can’t you design classy clothes that everyone can wear and not necessarily clothes that are really pritzus where too much skin is showing? Keep it tasteful like Jackie O but more current. What is wrong with that?December 2, 2010 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #721950
BA? Buenos AiresDecember 2, 2010 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #721951arcParticipant
jackie o was popular in the 60’s. if she wants to make it she needs to design what will sell now.December 2, 2010 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #721952
The point is that in South America right now is summer, so I think I could manage to design the winter collection and can be more tzniusdik. The point is the store sells really pritzus (non sleeves, short, cleavage, you name it) as well as carreer clothes, therefore if I take the job, I would have to design like arc says, what will sell now, not only a part of it.
it is not like selling treif? that is what is making me doubt.
ThanksDecember 2, 2010 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #721953
Just keep in mind- whatever you design for them,(even pritzus clothing nebach), will eventually creep into our Jewish sisters.
ALL styles are brought into our communities.December 2, 2010 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #721954
Please call a Rav.December 2, 2010 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #721955not IMember
I don’t think there should be a problem. the goyim are not doing anything wrong whrn they wear pritzus. Besides if you don’t design them someone else will and stil wear the pritzus clothes!December 2, 2010 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #721956
There is a specific Issur D’Rabbanan to deal in Traif food.
Please do not compare to clothing.
Besides, Rov says non-jews will wear it.December 2, 2010 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #721957aries2756Participant
Tasteful clothing is always in style and so are zippers these days. So why can’t you design clever clothing with zippers and other closures that can be worn open or closed that way the consumer and not you are making the choice.December 2, 2010 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #721958
Thank you all for your opinions, I agree with smartcookie, that some of the clothing can end in the hands of yidden, my concern is, shall I have a part on it?
Believe me, If we wouldn’t be on this dire financial situation (my husband just lost his job) it would never crossed my mind.
Of course I can play with the designs and even put some tzniusdik designs in the collection, after all is for winter, it’s easy, but the whole thing does not smell right to me.
I have daughters, what impact will it have on them?
I will try to find a local Rav, ours is in NY collecting funds, and make a sheela.
Thank you all.December 2, 2010 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #721959
“You can even manufacture christian crosses to sell to goyim. “
that’s not true. you can’t make or sell things that are used for avoda zara, and it’s not poshut about the cross.December 2, 2010 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #721960
Rema in YD 141 says personal crosses are not Avoda Zara and Mutar B’hanah. The Shach there concurs, and says it is only Assur if it has been bowed down to previously.
A poster in YWN (Who I assume doesn’t know this Rema and makes false claims) says Assur.
Whom do you think we should believe?
I pick the Rema and Shach. chesedname can pick the poster.December 2, 2010 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #721961
Thanks gavra_at_work, I see you learned Avoda Zara too; great mesechta.
“There is a specific Issur D’Rabbanan to deal in Traif food”
Do you mean basar vchalav, or any treif?December 2, 2010 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #721963
now that you pulled me into this topic (all i said before was it’s not pashut)
the poskum DO say you shouldn’t make it a career choice, look at
Divrei Chachumim page 192:47,
Kinyan Torah 1:54:5,
Darchei Teshuva, Maharam Shick 152,
Zera Emes 2:45,
Yehuda Yalei Y.D. 1:177,
let me know when you’re doneDecember 2, 2010 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #721966
Cherrybim- I once wanted to invest in real estate. The building had the basement reserved for worship and church meetings. We were told by a big Rav that we can’t be the owners of such a place.
It isn’t so simple.December 2, 2010 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #721967SJSinNYCMember
I have no idea on the halacha end.
I can tell, that today, many women wear shirts that aren’t tzanua with another shirt underneath. So they may be tzanua while wearing the clothing.December 2, 2010 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #721969WolfishMusingsParticipant
Not too long ago I brought up on these boards the question about my working for a company that rents space from Trinity Church, since the value I add to the company helps to pay the rent to the church and whether my contribution to the company value therefore also, directly or indirectly, contributes to the support of Trinity Church.
My impression was that most people here thought I was out of my mind for even asking the question.
The WolfDecember 2, 2010 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #721970so rightMember
I don’t think that was the reason they thought your were out of your mind.
JKDecember 2, 2010 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #721971
Wolf- did you ask that question from a Rav? I’m wondering if you would share the Psak you got.December 2, 2010 11:55 pm at 11:55 pm #721972
“There is a specific Issur D’Rabbanan to deal in Traif food.”
Not so simple! It is mutar to sell stam wine and treif meet to non-Jews. It is mutar to own an interest in a non-kosher restaurant (although not to profit from basar v’chalav). Consult a rav before going into such a business.December 2, 2010 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #721973
“I once wanted to invest in real estate. The building had the basement reserved for worship and church meetings. We were told by a big Rav that we can’t be the owners of such a place.”
And yet if you already own the building, if a Christian group wants to rent part of the building for religious services you may be legally required to rent it to them!December 2, 2010 11:59 pm at 11:59 pm #721974
I would do everything you can to reach YOUR rav who is familiar with YOUR situation even if it means calling him in the middle of the night. I can easily see space to be mutar here but I can easily see being machmir. YOUR rav who knows YOU and YOUR situation is the best person to help you make this difficult choice.
All the best!December 3, 2010 2:34 am at 2:34 am #721975HelpfulMember
I don’t know whether the strict halachic answer to the OP’s question allows or prohibits designing pritzusdik clothing for, ostensibly, goyim.
BUT I do know that, either way, an ehrliche yid would not do it.December 3, 2010 7:32 am at 7:32 am #721977
Let’s reiterate gavra_at_work’s post:
“Rema in YD 141 says personal crosses are not Avoda Zara and Mutar B’hanah. The Shach there concurs, and says it is only Assur if it has been bowed down to previously.”
So you all, don’t bring raiyos from situations where the item or building is already being used for avodah zarah or such things.
By the way, based on this heter, frum Yiden are manufacturers of crosses, with and without the yoizel.December 3, 2010 1:02 pm at 1:02 pm #721978
I’m still eagerly awaiting gavra_at_work’s response???December 3, 2010 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #721979WolfishMusingsParticipant
Of course, there’s also the question of designing clothing that is not tznius (at least with regards to public wear), but yet can be worn by Jews.
The WolfDecember 3, 2010 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #721980
Wolf – I don’t think halacha cares that a Yid might do an aveira because of your action. For instance, you are at work and a call comes in from Israel on Friday, and it’s already Shabbos in Israel; can you handle the call? The answer is yes; your parnossa does not have to be put in jeopardy because some Yid wants to do an aveira.December 3, 2010 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #721981
i beg to differ.
i really didn’t get wolf’s post, so no comment on that part.
if you’re non frum cousin calls from Israel, and it’s shabbos, you can’t answer the phone.
we’re not allowed to help someone do an aveiraDecember 5, 2010 1:24 am at 1:24 am #721983myfriendMember
cherrybim – if you know the incoming call is coming from E Yisroel (i.e. caller id), you cannot answer it.December 5, 2010 3:44 am at 3:44 am #721985The Rabbi RocksMember
lostinba: what did ur rav say?December 5, 2010 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #721986twistedParticipant
There was an urban legend/ joke/truth- stranger- than- fiction in NY that the wafers used in rc communion were supplied by a large NY matzo bakery.December 6, 2010 3:13 am at 3:13 am #721987
I think that it might be Muttar if you stay within the boundaries of what is already considered normal and decent. By non Jews there is also an Issur of Lifnei Iver when we are talking about something that they are Mechuyav. The thing we have to know is are they Oiver on these things that are Parutz by them already.December 6, 2010 4:24 am at 4:24 am #721988
“cherrybim – if you know the incoming call is coming from E Yisroel (i.e. caller id), you cannot answer it.”
Read my post again. My comment pertains to a work situation. You are not m’chuyav to lose your job on account of a Yid who is m’chalel Shabbos. This is a p’sak halacha.December 6, 2010 5:02 am at 5:02 am #721989so rightMember
HaLeiVi – Considering you recognize parutz is applicable to a goy, on what basis do you assume the definition of parutz is different for a goy than a yid?December 6, 2010 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #721990
At Work means only at work.
My response was blocked (to protect the right wing posters above (not you)). Ask the mod to forward.December 6, 2010 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #721991
I’m talking about being Machshil them with Arayos, as in Eishes Ish. I don’t think there is a Chiyuv of Tznius for it’s own merit. That has to do with Vehaya Machanecha Kadosh. Hirhur, though, probably is a problem.December 6, 2010 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #721993
Being that you mention that you have a daughter at home, you actually don’t want to work from home. Perhaps you can get yourself a private office someplace.
As someone else here pointed out, even if it is technically ok, we wouldn’t want to have our hands in Tuma. However, Parnassa is not something taken lightly, even in Halacha. Perhaps Chazal were refering to this case when they said Pshot Neveila Bashuk V’al Titztarech Labrios.December 28, 2010 1:00 am at 1:00 am #721996nachasMember
lostinba, I was wondering if you ever got an answer to your question. I was wondering the same thing as I manufacture ladies clothing and would like to stop selling to yidden and sell to goyim. I did ask my rav and he said that it is okay to make untznius clothing but I have to think real carefully as I have girls that I have to marry off. I feel if you are working for a company and you yourself will not be selling it it is fine. I design,manufacture and all myself so it is a bit different because it is my own company.December 28, 2010 4:56 am at 4:56 am #721997mw13Participant
I recently heard that R’ Ovadya Yosef passkened that one is allowed to sell non-tzniyus clothes even to jews, since they could get the same style clothes elsewhere. But as always, all halacha li’maseh shailos should go to a qualified Rov, not to anonymous bloggers who may or may not have any idea what they’re talking about.December 28, 2010 11:43 am at 11:43 am #721998shev143Member
Unless the questioner lives in Iran, you can design anything you want and it is up to the buyer if they want to buy it or wear it.
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