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Hi, as you all probably know, I like this forum despite some issues with it. I’ve been absent from here for an extended period, and you probably noticed me not answering my last thread. I came back now after much reflection on which I wish to share with everyone.
Some of you may have thought I don’t give serious consideration to the comments addressed to me, but I really do. It took awhile to reflect on much of them but I’m finally able to share the point I’ve reached over the past several months.
I always had in the back of my head questions about my old positions, even on the ones I’ve taken strong positions here. But I mostly attributed that to all the “noise” against Chabad and figured it was just getting to me, and was best ignored. But now that I had some free time in my life I really considered everything in much greater detail. And what I’ve realized (drumroll) is that many of you are really right.
I’m not really comfortable right now getting into the nitty gritty’s of my recent thought processes and how I’ve changed. At least not yet. Maybe I’ll come to the point of being comfortable sharing it here again. But for now I just wanted to thank everyone, especially those who disagreed with me very strongly.
What was ur original name?
Welcome back
When the Melech HaMashiach finally comes,
Chabad will be in very big trouble,
because they will REJECT the Melech HaMashiach,
because the Melech HaMashiach will NOT be Rabbi Schneerson.The Melech HaMashiach will then have the Halachic authority
to execute [kill] the entire membership of Chabad,
because that is the Halachic penalty for anyone who
rebels against a king from the dynasty of King David.Welcome back. I hope you and your family are well.
Chabad Shlucha – Please, if you really do love and respect the Rebbe, his teachings, and his legacy (I also do, although I am not Lubavitch myself), PLEASE DO NOT START THESE THREADS. There are a small number (possibly only one) of seriously disturbed trolls, with an obsessive hate of Lubavitch, who hijack the conversation and turn it into a rage-room full of disgusting hate language and ביזוי תלמידי חכמים, that bears no resemblance to a real Torah debate. Look at what happened to ‘Hi I’m Back 3.0’, now with almost 900 comments, almost all of them pure garbage. (Where are the moderators?! Do they do anything at all? If someone would use the same language ‘qwerty613’ uses about the Lubavitcher Rebbe to describe a Litvish Gadol, would that also be OK with them? No deletions ever?) If you REALLY ARE CHABAD (?), so PLEASE DON’T FEED THE TROLLS.
Chabad Shlucha – Please don’t take what I said personally. I have the utmost respect for Chabad and especially the Shlichim. The Rebbe זצ״ל didn’t hold of debates with misnagdim. There are plenty of Yidden out there to reach out to without wasting time debating people who have no intention of being מקבל anything.
SQUARE_ROOT והקע אותם נגד השמש. See Rashi. God judges individually.
Neverthelss, it is indeed potentially a major haalchic issue for anyone who is diehard on a specific individual for the moshiachship. Diehard specifically.
Regarding the death penalty, he might put you to death for sowing discord amongst the קומה שלימה of beis yisroel. Just be careful.
Are you a prophet to know in advance who will reject Moshiach? Most Chabbadskers (including Moshichist) are sincere people who are making an error. Even if we accept that choosing such a belief as an adult shows a serious lack of discernment, many are raised on this from childhood. I think Moshiach will be able to demonstrate the emes to sincere yidden who are want to do the ratzon Hashem.
“because they will REJECT the Melech HaMashiach”
I have a real problem with this type of statement. Similar things have been said before, like Moshiach will be rejected by some because he wears a srugi, by others because he wears a shtreimel, etc. It’s a backwards attempt to call for achdus, but the root of it is denigration, either of specific groups of Jews or all Jews. What you wrote doesn’t even have the veneer of calling for achdus. When Moshiach comes, it will be like the shevatim when Yosef declared, אני יוסף העוד אבי חי and everything that had happened fell into place in a second and they were too shocked to speak. We will understand in a flash, and the beis hamikdash will be rebuilt and we will all return to Eretz Yisroel. It won’t be like some guy who sponsors a big kiddush, gives a middling drash by the Galil, throws some tables over in the courtyard, then gets himself executed by the Romans and his followers have to try for the next 2000 years to convince us using weird distortions of pesukim. It will be so comfortingly clear it’s described in the nevi’im as a baby nursing his mother.
I agree with Yaakov Yosef a. Btw I think this x chabad shlucha is not really cs, it’s fake.
@mods vetting my post about …
Sorry, going to err on the side of caution here.
@ YYA
Why did you assume that the many posters on the Chabbad threads are:
1) Misnagdim
2) Not willing to be m’kabel anythingIn fact, both of the above assumptions are wrong.
@ YYA
Why did you assume that the many posters on the Chabbad threads are:
1) Misnagdim
2) Not willing to be m’kabel anythingIn fact, both of the above assumptions are wrong.
Non political – The previous thread with the same name 3.0 was completely taken over by a disturbed troll who rambled out hundreds of posts full of crude hate language, including towards the Lubavitcher Rebbe himself. Either the moderators have to start doing their job, or just avoid certain subjects until they do.
Sechel – I’m also a little suspicious about who ‘CS’ really is. If she just wants to be מתחזק with friends, there are plenty of Chabad and Chabad friendly websites and social media. However, the moderators should really clean up anything going near ביזוי תלמידי חכמים, of ANY kind, or hate language, again of ANY kind. (It says so in the rules, doesn’t it?)
Square root. The melech hamadiash will execute _figureitvely_ bro. Your fear mongering and out of touch belief system is a little insane. G-d and mashiach will live _with_ the times
@mods my post is not undermining about anyone, only if you misunderstood what I wrote.
On the contrary, there is a world of truth that is refined, but also delicate.
@ YYA
“I’m also a little suspicious about who ‘CS’ really is. If she just wants to be מתחזק with friends, there are plenty of Chabad and Chabad friendly websites and social media”
She has written in the OP as well as previous threads that she has an interest in reading other people’s point of view. Why are you advising her to live in an echo chamber? There are intelligent posters from different segments of the frum community who post here. Don’t throw out the baby with the bath water.
Yaakov Yosef A, you ask where the moderators are. However, when I tried being מוחה at one point for the very inappropriate manner in which anti Lubavitch spoke of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, a moderator responded with ‘how do you know he’s a Gadol’.
So we first need to to prove that a spiritual leader of a large portion of Frum Jews matches our expectation of “Gadol” before we give him the minimum degree of non-Bezayon.
May I say, that as much as people complain about Lubavitchers having slang for Misnagdim, Litvish have a big Lubavitch problem as well. We have, right here on this thread, retarted statements anticipating death.
Next time you’re at an antisemitism summit, trying to figure out its root causes and underlying mindset, look no further. You got it all, but you obviously don’t direct it on your own segment.
Even threads like that are useful – they tell us more about posters and those they represent, rather than about what they write about. So many people profess their utter respect for Toirah and gedolim, and then go low when they think they have a license to do so.
@halevi
Just to point out what’s the view of Rabbi Fishelis – qwerty’s rabbi. According to ai
From the available information, it appears that Rabbi Fishelis holds a respectful view of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, and his teachings.Litvish do not have a ‘problem’ with lubavitch .
it official habad , who are claiming outlandish claims .
official habad meaning their leader himself
like nevu’a
like mashiach
like belittling chazon ish [purim 1956]
and the list goes on
you cannot come with major claims and then expect immunity from scrutiny
this is obvious
the scrutiny is proportionate to the claim
the bigger the claim the bigger the scrutiny
and the scrutiny is applicable to the source of the claim
the leader makes the claim
so the leader is opening himself up to scrutiny
its a package deal
they cannot have the cake and also eat it
although I generally concur with yakov yosef in most cases , here I disagree
.
.yankel > Litvish do not have a ‘problem’ with lubavitch .
One problem is that (people you call) Litvish tend to ignore the great work Chabad does with non0-religious Jews. When they finally decided to join, they called it “kiruv” as the first point of reference is that they are closet to Hashem. This is not the same as Litivish R Salanter, for example.
None2.0, stop with your apikorsus!
One problem is that (people you call) Litvish tend to ignore the great work Chabad does with non0-religious Jews. When they finally decided to join, they called it “kiruv” as the first point of reference is that they are closet to Hashem. This is not the same as Litivish R Salanter, for example.
—
different topic altogetherI referred to major claims by habad and then their subsequent claim for immunity from scrutiny .
.
.
think this is outrageous .major claims warrant major scrutiny .
.
.Yankel Berel – I’m not going to go through your list line by line, despite having what to say. My real point is that no one posting here has any שייכות to being a בר פלוגתא with the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Period. The most anyone of us is entitled to do is to choose a different Rebbe/Rosh Yeshiva/Rov, who may disagree with the Lubavitcher Rebbe on certain issues, but not to add our ‘two cents’ to any debate. All this is aside from the fact that no Lubavitcher could care less what anyone here thinks, so who are you trying to convince? (I am not a Lubavitcher, but I learn and love Lubavitcher Sefarim from all the generations of Rebbes and talmidim, as did my Rebbe.)
HaLeiVi said – Yaakov Yosef A, you ask where the moderators are. However, when I tried being מוחה at one point for the very inappropriate manner in which anti Lubavitch spoke of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, a moderator responded with ‘how do you know he’s a Gadol’.
Let’s say they ‘don’t know if he is a Gadol’. (If someone would write here similar trash about the Rov of a local Shtiebel in Boro Park, or a third-tier Rosh Yeshiva, I don’t think it would fly as easily, but let’s say they really ‘don’t know’.) My Rebbe said about such situations ספק דאורייתא להחמיר, certainly safek of up to 31 דאורייתא mentioned in the Hakdama of the Chofetz Chaim, especially ביזוי תלמידי חכמים which is exceedingly severe. The threshold for triggering an issur of בזיון is much lower than being a ‘Gadol’.
Non Political – There is a range of options between being in an ‘echo chamber’ and being a punching bag. I was merely suggesting to go for the more benign end of the spectrum…
@ AAQ
“One problem is that (people you call) Litvish tend to ignore the great work Chabad does with non0-religious Jews.”
1) One does not have to ignore their success in Kiruv to be troubled by the issues that have been enumerated many times across multiple threads. The one does not mitigate the other.
2) The fact that they are successful at kiruv compounds the problem.
Its not the posters on cr who attempting to turn the habad rebbi into someone controversial
he was controversial long before that
made so by his own statements , his own hinuch , and aspects of his own way of being mehanech his hasidim
this has been called out by many people much greater than the posters on cr who clearly called him out on those issues
this is not a secret at all and is well known
so the posters are not mechadesh anything in that regard
habad are wonderful jews who could very possibly sit higher in gan eden than me
and agree that their leader learnt davened and cared for other yidden more than me
but that does not make obvious falsehoods part of the torah ,
nor does it give license to turn our long held beliefs into a mockery and a caricature of flippant pretsel like theological rollercoaster changes
again – they invited the scrutiny
if you come with earth shattering claims, you have to be prepared for equally sized scrutiny
and to defend them in an honest and well based manner
you cannot complain when you fail to defend them and there are legitimate questions remaining
.
.
there is no immunity in these matters , sorry.and this is an important safeguard of our mesora
no one , no matter how great , was immune in our history .
no one could sneak past the door and introduce false innovations in our mesora
he would have been called out immediately , no matter his greatness
b’h the system is still working
so b’h our mesora is reliable
.
...
NP > one does not mitigate the other.
Intellectually, I am with you. But we have an idea that someone involved in communal affairs is recognized and also might lose out in learning (Pirkei Avos, Mordechai). All the shluchim with their children growing up in non-religious towns – not all of these children are going to become talmidei chachamim. According to the logic of the “tzahal” threads – what they are doing is too risky and it is safer to sit at home and talk about hesranos of others.
Yankel Berel – I am aware that some גדולים criticized the Lubavitcher Rebbe. For our purposes, it doesn’t change anything. Many of the criticisms you (and others) imply towards Chabad parallel criticisms leveled against Chassidus in general, when it was still a new movement. Some very big גדולי עולם called out some other very big גדולי עולם over many of the same issues (and then too, they suspected them of going further than they really did…) Be that as it may, my main point was that it isn’t OUR place to stick our little noses into מחלוקת between real גדולי עולם when we have no שייכות to being a מאן דאמר for either side.
@ yya
Like HKBH does not accept shochad – so too klal yisrael does not accept shochad
Klal yisrael will never accept false changes in our mesorah , just because of the shochad of
those false changers
truly happen to do kiruv
truly happen to be nice people
truly happen to provide a good service for orthodox travelers in exotic locales
truly happen to explain humash rashi in an uplifting way
.these false changes should be called out again and again, without fear or favor , until
real to the point satisfying answers will be given
.
.
.this has , again , no bearing on the many truly wonderful people who
might be [unwitting] supporters of the those false changes.
.
.Yankel Berel, he invited scrutiny by doing things differently. Fine. But that scrutiny is for other leaders. We had so much trouble, historically, from המון עם getting involved in fights of leaders, or to put it better: turning arguments between leaders into full-blown fights.
To yankel berel
Thanks for the heads-up. I wasn’t aware of this thread.
To the group
Just want to set the record straight. Yaakov Yosef A is obviously obsessed with me. He claims that his ire is caused by what I’ve said about the Rebbe, but he’s lying. I joined a different thread in June on order to bring attention to what Rav Aaron Feldman said about Manis Friedman. For some reason he took offense at.my post and tried to cut it down arguing that he wasn’t interested in the subject . When others chose to weigh in on the topic he left the thread but not before intimating that I’m crazy. He disappeared for a few weeks and then returned to bring nothing to the table but irrational attacks against me. I could care less what this or any psychotic days about me. What’s noteworthy is that there are people who try to stifle honest discussions about Chabad.
To the group
Sechel claims that according to AI Rabbi Fishelis thinks well of the Rebbe and his teachings. Well in this matter I can do better than AI since I see him almost every day at Maariv and we lived in the same building for about 50 years. Rabbi Fishelis can’t stand Chabad..As for his opinion about the Rebbe, he never told me anything directly but he did say clearly that it’s nonsense that he was a Novi
Checkmate.To Abram in MD
No one can predict what will happen when Moshiach comes. You paint a rosy picture but that’s only one possible scenario. According to Rambam natural law won’t change and so it’s hard to imagine that the overwhelming majority of Jews will change their Teva and accept one leader. So I wouldn’t declare that he’ll sentence Chabad to death because he’d have to kill many other Jews. Let’s just Daven for his arrival and hope we’ll be there to greet him
To yankel berel
The reason Yaakov Yosef A refuses to act civilly towards me is not because of my attacks against the Rebbe. As you pointed out everyone knows the things he said. What bothered Yaakov Yosef A is that I brought in as did Philosopher Manis Friedman.to the discussion .Yaakov Yosef A knows that he has no way to excuse Manis s Kefirah and so he chose instead to go pitbull on me. As you well know I don’t get intimidated especially not by such worthless trash. No one in the thread denies the good that Chabad does and we recognize the Rebbe’s genius. We’re simply challenging their lies. Why is that so hard for people to understand?
To the group
Yaakov Yosef A used the following logic,”The moderators wouldn’t allow such shmutz to be written about a 3rd tier Rosho Yeshiva or some Shtiebel Rav in Boro Park. So how can they allow such calumny to be directed as the great Lubavitcher Rebbe?” This is a Kal VChomer that’s easily refuted. No Shtiebel Rav called himself a Novi or god clothed in human form. No third tier Rosho Yeshiva said he was the Nosi Hador who would save every Jew
As my Rav said, “The Rebbe’s Gaavah was so great that he convinced himself he’s god.” Now this doesn’t mean that Yaakov Yosef A shouldn’t learn the Rebbe’s Torah or be a fan of Chabad. However he has no right to challenge those who are bringing these truths to the fore. Hey I write pretty good for someone who’s insane. Am I right?To non-political
I’m glad to see that you put Yaakov Yosef A’s feet in the fire. He has no interest in the truth. He simply has his agenda that he wants to promote and so he ignores anything that’s at odds with it. He’s like Nope but Nope’s language was never as malicious. I guess that means I’m doing my job well.
No one in early hasidut claimed about himself that he is a halachik navi
No one in early hasidut claimed about himself that he is our Milenia long awaited mashiach
No one in early hasidut made theological pretsel uturns in their own publicly stated convictions contradicting their own previously held shitot , just according to the needs of that specific hour
No one in early hasidut publicly ridiculed someone as centrally accepted in klal yisrael as chazon ish
No one in early hasidut attended years long university studies and then became rebbe , without having a rebbi himself when he grew up
The comparison to early hasidut is a false one and has been misused in order to cover for absurd and clearly exaggerated claims of grandeur brought to the public in a sneaky step by step way
—Bottom line- those claims of mashiach navi etc etc are major earth shattering ones , not made at any time before in our 2000 years of galut
and therefore rightfully deserve major scrutiny,at least to a proportionate size when compared to the immensity of the claims themselves.
habad invited this scrutiny upon themselves and have only themselves to blame for said scrutiny.
.
qwerty613 – Just to set the record straight. Anyone who want to do so can click on my username and view all of my posts, to everyone, and then do the same with your username, and see which one of us is נוהג to “go pit bull” on people. What I did do, was to suggest that if you are so profoundly troubled by something Rabbi Manis Friedman said, you could – contact him and ask for clarification… To that you responded by harping on how what Rabbi Friedman said MUST BE kefirah, CAN ONLY BE kefirah, HOW CAN YOU DARE SAY IT ISN’T kefirah… To which I responded by again politely suggesting that you just call or otherwise contact him and ask him for pshat in what he said. You then launched into a series of verbally abusive posts that can only be described as psychotic, upon which I signed off of that thread for over a month. Shortly before Tisha B’Av, I noticed that the same thread was still going strong and racking up hundreds of comments over a month and a half, far more and longer than any other thread, mostly posts from you, displaying obsessive hate for the Lubavitcher Rebbe, and using gross nivul peh to describe him, which the moderators repeatedly ignored. (Rabbi Friedman was no longer the main focus of the conversation at that point, if that even matters.) I suggested that: 1. Perhaps Erev Tisha B’Av is not a proper time for such discussion. 2. No one here is qualified to be a בר פלוגתא of the Lubavitcher Rebbe or anyone else. 3. Who are you trying to convince? To which you responded with another psychotic fit. Anyone can read it and decide for themselves, because again nothing was deleted… I’m not sure where Yankel Berel comes in to all of this, because we otherwise agree very often.
To the point, as I wrote here before:
I am aware that some גדולים criticized the Lubavitcher Rebbe. For our purposes, it doesn’t change anything. Many of the criticisms directed towards Chabad parallel criticisms leveled against Chassidus in general, when it was still a new movement. Some very big גדולי עולם called out some other very big גדולי עולם over many of the same issues (and then too, they suspected them of going further than they really did…) Be that as it may, my main point was that it isn’t OUR place to stick our little noses into מחלוקת between real גדולי עולם when we have no שייכות to being a מאן דאמר for either side.
HaLeiVi said – Yaakov Yosef A, you ask where the moderators are. However, when I tried being מוחה at one point for the very inappropriate manner in which anti Lubavitch spoke of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, a moderator responded with ‘how do you know he’s a Gadol’.
Let’s say they ‘don’t know if he is a Gadol’. (If someone would write here similar trash about the Rov of a local Shtiebel in Boro Park, or a third-tier Rosh Yeshiva, I don’t think it would fly as easily, but let’s say they really ‘don’t know’.) My Rebbe said about such situations ספק דאורייתא להחמיר, certainly safek of up to 31 דאורייתא mentioned in the Hakdama of the Chofetz Chaim, especially ביזוי תלמידי חכמים which is exceedingly severe. The threshold for triggering an issur of בזיון is much lower than being a ‘Gadol’.
No one even tried to offer a serious response to either of these posts, and I don’t think any more is necessary. Wishing you the best, and זאל זיין געזונט.
My entering the fray so late in the piece – and this is the second time that has happened – makes me think that I am suffering some sort of time-delay. I have no idea why I miss the beginnings of these threads.
Be that as it may, here are my two cents.
Yaakov Yosef A: My real point is that no one posting here has any שייכות to being a בר פלוגתא with the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Period.
It’s not a matter of being a בר פלוגתא. It’s calling out patently false views made by an individual whose claims are not only outlandish but dangerous to Klal Yisroel. I am not c”v comparing the L rebbe to Shabsi Tzvi, but had you been around 400 years ago would you have said it is not our business to dispute (and denigrate) S”T because he was a big talmid chochom and we therefore have no שייכות to being his בר פלוגתא?
I once heard in the name of a R Bunim of Peshisscha that the reason for the decline of yir’as Shomayim in Germany was that they were too ‘careful’ in regards to Lashon Hara. That is, when someone pointed out the dangers of certain groups of Yidden and their views, they were silenced as one is not allowed to talk Lashon Hara. This then led to the dangerous views spreading and eventually eroding the yir’as Shomayim of the populace.
All this is aside from the fact that no Lubavitcher could care less what anyone here think
That is SO not true! Every single Lubavicher that I have ever met over more than the last fifty years is focused on spreading the word of how great their rebbe was/is, and it really irks them if someone doesn’t believe that he was/is the tzaddik hador.
My Rebbe said about such situations ספק דאורייתא להחמיר, certainly safek of up to 31 דאורייתא mentioned in the Hakdama of the Chofetz Chaim, especially ביזוי תלמידי חכמים which is exceedingly severe. The threshold for triggering an issur of בזיון is much lower than being a ‘Gadol’.
That’s fine when the question is merely, is someone a gadol or not. But when the question is whether the supposed-gadol has views that are dangerous and misleading, your rebbe’s rule does not apply, even according to the Chofetz Chaim.
Yaakov Yosef A, you write:
No one even tried to offer a serious response to either of these postsMay I ask who you are expecting an answer from?
ARSo – It’s not a matter of being a בר פלוגתא. It’s calling out patently false views
In order to decide which views are “patently false”, you need to be within some sort of standard deviation of being a בר פלוגתא. If you open up a ראשון and see something that appears “outlandish”, do you also feel competent to declare it “patently false”? There has to be some שייכות, which no one writing here has. If Rav Shach זצ״ל would be writing here I wouldn’t be calling him out ח״ו. This is just פשוט שכל. If you follow a גדול (not just for purposes of מחלוקת, but follow for real) who happens to also not hold of Lubavitch, fine for you. That doesn’t give you the right to add your own “two cents” to this or any other מחלוקת.
ARSo – had you been around 400 years ago would you have said it is not our business to dispute (and denigrate) S”T because he was a big talmid chochom and we therefore have no שייכות to being his בר פלוגתא?
It wouldn’t have been our business. The גדולי תורה of that generation decided how to deal with him. These things aren’t the responsibility of every individual Yankel. At the time, the דעת בעלי בתים chevra were all for him, and mocked the גדולי ישראל who opposed him…
ARSo – That is SO not true! Every single Lubavicher that I have ever met over more than the last fifty years is focused on spreading the word of how great their rebbe was/is, and it really irks them if someone doesn’t believe that he was/is the tzaddik hador.
So what. In discussing the parameters of תועלת, nowhere does the חפץ חיים permit saying לשון הרע in order to “irk” someone. If it is clear that there is no possibility of convincing someone, then there is no obligation, and ממילא no היתר, of תוכחה or תועלת or anything else. Be honest. Whoever is posting these comments here is just doing it for fun. Not to “save” anyone. By the way, believing any particular person is the צדיק הדור is perfectly Kosher. You don’t have to agree, but that is a long way from בזיון.
ARSo – That’s fine when the question is merely, is someone a gadol or not. But when the question is whether the supposed-gadol has views that are dangerous and misleading, your rebbe’s rule does not apply, even according to the Chofetz Chaim.
No, not at all. To trigger a ספק דאורייתא of איסורי לשון הרע it is not at all necessary to be a גדול, only to be עמיתך, which nowadays is not much higher a bar than being Shomer Shabbos… You are also using circular reasoning. Anyone you think might be a כופר is automatically no longer protected by עמיתך, which in turn permits you to be דן לכף חוב, which establishes that he is in fact a כופר…
If you don’t like Lubavitch, maybe you like Satmar… The Divrei Yoel said that if someone is very excited about one particular Mitzvah, but not so much about other Mitzvos, he should investigate carefully where his excitement is coming from… Are all the people here so excited about “saving כלל ישראל” from “כפירה” equally excited about every other aspect of Yiddishkeit?
Regarding Reb Manis Friedman, what happened to the halacha of first rebuking him privately and if he doesn’t change his ways, ONLY THEN rebuke him publicly.
I’m sure if Reb Feldman would try this, he would get clarification but he hears what he wants to, like his letter about בוראינו he obviously just misheard מורינו, probably comes from his rebbe rosh yeshiva of bnai brakCopying Yaakov Yosef A
I am aware that some גדולים criticized the Lubavitcher Rebbe. For our purposes, it doesn’t change anything. Many of the criticisms directed towards Chabad parallel criticisms leveled against Chassidus in general, when it was still a new movement. Some very big גדולי עולם called out some other very big גדולי עולם over many of the same issues (and then too, they suspected them of going further than they really did…) Be that as it may, my main point was that it isn’t OUR place to stick our little noses into מחלוקת between real גדולי עולם when we have no שייכות to being a מאן דאמר for either side.
Just to quote some of the complaints against chassidum in the time of the alter rebbe (that got him arrested (מבוא החסידות page 231)
Chassidim describe hashem with human expressions (like R feldman claims about R Manis)
I hold the chassidim are followers of shabtzai tzvi
They listen to their rebbe more than Moshe rabainu
It’s also known in the cherem the vilna gaon signed he accused chassidim of serving avodah zara.
So just like today it’s ridiculous to say these things about chassidim, so too it’s ridiculous that qwerty and others are saying the same complaints.@ YYA
You wrote: “If you open up a Rishon and see something that appears “outlandish”, do you also feel competent to declare it “patently false”?”
It depends. There are other principals for accepting / rejecting propositions other then an appeal to authority. For example, there are Geonim and Rishonim who held the earth does not move. Obviously, once we have the benefit of observing it move that is grounds for rejecting that opinion.
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ARSo wrote: had you been around 400 years ago would you have said it is not our business to dispute (and denigrate) S”T…” You responded: “It wouldn’t have been our business. The גדולי תורה of that generation decided how to deal with him. These things aren’t the responsibility of every individual Yankel. At the time, the דעת בעלי בתים chevra were all for him, and mocked the גדולי ישראל who opposed him…”
I disagree with this on 2 counts:
1) Those who had sufficient information / reason to oppose him had every obligation to do so. One does not need to be a Gadol to know the Emes. Consider this, If your Rav tells you to speak lashon HaRa you are forbidden to acquiesce to his request. You don’t say “Well he is a Gadol, what do I know”.
2) In fact many Gedolim where initially taken in by S”T.Next
You wrote: “Nowhere does the חפץ חיים permit saying לשון הרע in order to “irk” someone. If it is clear that there is no possibility of convincing someone, then there is no obligation, and ממילא no היתר, of תוכחה or תועלת or anything else.”
The Toeles is creating an environment that is not conducive for spreading their falsehoods. The importance of this toeles is amplified by the fact that they are propagandizing these falsehoods with significant resources.
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“Be honest. Whoever is posting these comments here is just doing it for fun. Not to “save” anyone.
Honestly, No. There is nothing “fun” about this
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You wrote: “To trigger a ספק דאורייתא of איסורי לשון הרע it is not at all necessary to be a גדול, only to be עמיתך,”
This is true. And for this reason, it is very important to stick to the issues without disparaging anyone personally.
There is more to say about this but this is all I have time for at the moment
You totally ignored the many differences between this case and early hasidut.
I will repost them here:
—No one in early hasidut claimed about himself that he is a halachik navi
No one in early hasidut claimed about himself that he is our Milenia long awaited mashiach
No one in early hasidut made theological pretsel uturns in their own publicly stated convictions contradicting their own previously held shitot , just according to the needs of that specific hour
No one in early hasidut publicly ridiculed someone as centrally accepted in klal yisrael as chazon ish
No one in early hasidut attended years long university studies and then became rebbe , without having a rebbi himself when he grew up
The comparison to early hasidut is a false one and has been misused in order to cover for absurd and clearly exaggerated claims of grandeur brought to the public in a sneaky step by step way
—Bottom line- those claims of mashiach navi etc etc are major earth-shattering ones, not made at any time before in our 2000 years of galut
and therefore rightfully deserve major scrutiny, at least to a proportionate size when compared to the immensity of the claims themselves.
Am waiting for your point to point rebuttal …
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.habad invited this scrutiny upon themselves and have only themselves to blame for said scrutiny.
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