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You totally ignored the many differences between this case and early hasidut.
I will repost them here:
—No one in early hasidut claimed about himself that he is a halachik navi
No one in early hasidut claimed about himself that he is our Milenia long awaited mashiach
No one in early hasidut made theological pretsel uturns in their own publicly stated convictions contradicting their own previously held shitot , just according to the needs of that specific hour
No one in early hasidut publicly ridiculed someone as centrally accepted in klal yisrael as chazon ish
No one in early hasidut attended years long university studies and then became rebbe , without having a rebbi himself when he grew up
The comparison to early hasidut is a false one and has been misused in order to cover for absurd and clearly exaggerated claims of grandeur brought to the public in a sneaky step by step way
—Bottom line- those claims of mashiach navi etc etc are major earth-shattering ones, not made at any time before in our 2000 years of galut
and therefore rightfully deserve major scrutiny, at least to a proportionate size when compared to the immensity of the claims themselves.
Am waiting for your point to point rebuttal …
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.habad invited this scrutiny upon themselves and have only themselves to blame for said scrutiny.
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Yaakov Yosef A to me: In order to decide which views are “patently false”, you need to be within some sort of standard deviation of being a בר פלוגתא. If you open up a ראשון and see something that appears “outlandish”, do you also feel competent to declare it “patently false”?
You’re not really comparing the L rebbe to a Rishon, are you?
There has to be some שייכות, which no one writing here has. If Rav Shach זצ״ל would be writing here I wouldn’t be calling him out ח״ו.
I disagree. If anyone makes claims that are misleading and based on untrue interpretations, then it is well within the rights of anybody who can read and understand the sources to dispute it and point it out. And even if Rav Shach z”l was the one who did it I would call it out.
Furthermore, your argument certainly isn’t applicable where many gedolim – including the aforementioned Rav Shach – has the same opinion, even when one may not necessarily be a follower of those gedolim.
Re my argument that had we been around 400 years ago we should all have denigrated Shabsi Tzvi:
It wouldn’t have been our business. The גדולי תורה of that generation decided how to deal with him. These things aren’t the responsibility of every individual Yankel. At the time, the דעת בעלי בתים chevra were all for him, and mocked the גדולי ישראל who opposed him…I’m not a historian, but I don’t believe that what you wrote is exactly true. From what I have read on the matter, many many gedolei Yisroel in Eastern countries did, in fact, believe in him… and they were clearly wrong! European gedolim, on the other hand, said that he was a charlatan.
And what was someone who didn’t have a rebbe who had voiced an opinion to do? He would have to choose which side to be on. But according to you how would he do that?
Me:That is SO not true! Every single Lubavicher that I have ever met over more than the last fifty years is focused on spreading the word of how great their rebbe was/is, and it really irks them if someone doesn’t believe that he was/is the tzaddik hador.
YYA: So what.
What do you mean by ‘so what’? You wrote: “All this is aside from the fact that no Lubavitcher could care less what anyone here thinks.”
My reply was that every Lubavicher cares what everyone everywhere thinks about his rebbe.You are also using circular reasoning. Anyone you think might be a כופר is automatically no longer protected by עמיתך, which in turn permits you to be דן לכף חוב, which establishes that he is in fact a כופר…
There’s no circular reasoning here. If one honestly believes that someone is a kofer (I never said that about the L rebbe; I said he was misleading and dangerous. Nonetheless, the same reasoning applies.) then one is permitted, and even obligated, to forewarn people about him. The Chofetz Chaim is clear about this. There is no need to get the approval of a Beis Din or of a Gadol beYisroel before hand.
Also, I believe there is a letter of the Chazon Ish stating the above, although I currently can’t find my copy of אגרות חזון אי”ש, so I can cite or prove it.
If you don’t like Lubavitch, maybe you like Satmar… The Divrei Yoel said that if someone is very excited about one particular Mitzvah, but not so much about other Mitzvos, he should investigate carefully where his excitement is coming from… Are all the people here so excited about “saving כלל ישראל” from “כפירה” equally excited about every other aspect of Yiddishkeit?
I accept that, but the topic was brought up by others, and I am merely commenting on it. So the above is not really relevant to me.
Haleivi – I was expecting a response from those who seem to think it’s OK to be מבזה someone they think may be a Kofer. They did write back with the usual circular reasoning. In reality, the most that is EVER permitted לתועלת is למיחש מיבעי, which לכאורה doesn’t include “qwertying” anyone.
To the real Jews in the group
Don’t think it makes sense to waste any more time arguing with these clowns. We’ve made our point. The Chabad religion is a fraudulent expression of Judaism. Would just make two comments. First, in no way are any of the actual Jews in this thread Bar Plugta’s of the Rebbe. We’re sane and, as Rav Shach pointed out, the Rebbe was nuts. And Yaakov Yosef A certainly agrees with that assessment because he’d never challenge a Gadol Hador. LOL. Second, let’s focus on the lie that’s at the core of their “religion.” “This is the last generation of Golus and the first generation of Geulah.” The Rebbe said that at least 35 years ago which means this generation passed without Moshiach’s arrival. Checkmate.
To yankel berel and non-political
It took you awhile but now you’re on to that lowlife/ He has absolutely no interest in anything but proving to himself how smart he is. I highly doubt he has any Rav, because his Gaavah is too big to be machnia to anyone. Sechel lies to defend his god. YYA’S god is his arrogance and nastiness. He’s even worse than NOPE and that’s saying something.
@qwerty why are you quoting Rav shach? My assumption is your from the YU community, see what Rav shach said about them and their rabbi Rabbi JB solovatchik.
To the Group
YYA is a one-trick pony, constantly playing the Mivazeh Talmid Chacham card. Rava, in his disputes with Abaye often remarks, “There are two rebuttals to the matter.” I’ll do three. 1. If he’s protesting what we’ve said about Schneersohn, well the Gadol Hador called him crazy, and I doubt that he had as much information about him as we do or he would’ve said much worse. 2. If he’s upset that Manis Friedman has been vilified, again we’re not to blame, all I did was report what a Gadol said about him. If YYA has a problem with that, let him contact said Gadol. 3. Even if we have transgressed belittling Talmidei Chachamim so what? According to his holy Rabbi Friedman no Jew can be punished no matter what he does, so I and the others are totally in the clear. Checkmate.
To ARSo
I would argue that the Rebbe is far worse than ST. Rabbi Miller said that neither Yoshka nor his disciples ever suggested that he’s a Novi. By claiming he’s a Novi the Rebbe was telling his followers that he’s on the same level as Moshe Rabbeinu. I mentioned about a year ago the Chabad clown who said that the Rebbe was much greater, because he never got angry like Moshe.
Am looking forward to yya’s rebuttals …
Yankel Berel – I prepared a detailed response to your post, but I am scrapping it, because I am not interested in fueling further back and forth on this subject that will inevitably lead to more ביזוי תלמידי חכמים. All of the ענוים and בעלי מידות of the coffee room can figure it out for themselves, without help from a “בעל גאוה” who for some reason doesn’t consider himself qualified to say דעות about someone many גדולים did in fact hold of, even if some others disagreed. כתיבה וחתימה טובה to all.
To Sechel
Why would you think I’m from YU? I’ve stated innumerable times that I’m a Lower East Sider and I follow the Feinstein Mehalech. I know that you’re Chabad and you’re trained to lie, but Rav Moshe and his sons didn’t teach us that offensive trait.
To yankel berel
YYA has been exposed and he won’t address anything you bring up. On several occasions YYA has said that he isn’t a Lubavicher. Well yes and no. He probably wasn’t born Chabad, however the fact that he’s defending their heresy makes him Chabad. What’s my proof? President Trump called Chuck Schumer a Palestinian because he sides with them. YYA is far more devoted to Chabad than Schumer who’s just a typical politician
In a conversation with a habad hasid I heard the same
our rebbi is greater than moshe ….
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.Running to the absolute most extreme example of any argument is a known fallacy. The Egel was was attended by the Rov, so now we should always be פורש מן הציבור.
Shabsai Tzvi did not head a segment of Klal Yisroel. He was a phenomenon that many were confused about. And even there, it would have been oit of place for someone to go up against Rabbanim publicly. You are free to join those who you think are right, but never fan the flames of מחלוקת between them. I’m frankly surprised that this is even debated, after so much tragic history of this kind.
Had you been around in the time and place of Reb Yonason Eibshitz, you would have no doubt lashed out on one or the other. I hope you agree that that would have been a bad move.
To yankel berel
Yes, he was prepared to answer your challenges but he decided against it. He is a despicable liar. He keeps attacking others for Bizui Talmidei Chachamim but in truth YYA is the one who’s guilty. When I introduced Manis Friedman’s Kefirah to the group he said he wasn’t interested in the subject. When I pressed the subject he said that Rabbi Feldman should contact Manis and talk it out with him. This two bit nothing is telling a Gadol what he should do. Now he wants to get out of this thread because he feels the heat. And he still pretends that he’s a Torah Jew, What a disgrace. Lying phony that he is.
Qwerty, you’re definitely closer to modern, than you are ultra Orthodox – Rav shach . As evident from your posts. You even seem secular
I cannot see why those valid concerns I brought up should be dismissed
the fact is , middot and anava aside , they remain unanswered .
that follows a pattern .
valid questions about immense claims consistently remain unanswered
under the illusory hope that they will be swept under the carpet
but guess what
the carpet is not big enough ….
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think YYA , if he has real answers , he should publish them .if he does not , it should rightfully be considered as a concession to those concerns
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.@ YYA
“I prepared a detailed response to your post, but I am scrapping it, because I am not interested in fueling further back and forth on this subject that will inevitably lead to more ביזוי תלמידי חכמים”
Maybe reconsider. You have not read anything objectionable from YB or myself. We would appreciate hearing your responses to our posts.
To Sechel
You’re right that I’m not ultra-Orthodox, but I’m definitely not secular. If you want me to answer your question, and I would certainly like to, you must first answer my question, “Isn’t it true that the Rebbe was wrong when he said that this is the last generation of Galus and the first of Geulah?” If you disagree explain how he wasn’t wrong.
To non-political
What will it take for you to accept what I’ve been saying about this lying narcissist? He can’t answer you or yankel berel because he’ll be exposed as a Chabad shill and he wants to pretend that he’s regular Yeshivish. I’m a very good judge of character or in this case lack of character.
To the group
If the reason YYA doesn’t want to respond to yankel berel and non-political because he’s afraid of my comments I give my word that I’ll stay out of the discussion. That’s provided of course that he doesn’t bring me into the fray. Checkmate to that dirt bag who uses the Torah to fool people.
Dear Yankel Berel, Non Political, and whoever else is interested.
I chose not to respond to Yankel Berel, despite the fact that in general I like most of his posts, and he likes most of mine (one other threads). The point is, that this sort of debate is inherently problematic. Not every Yankel and Yossel and anonymous מאן דאמר with a keyboard is qualified to decide on his own who is a Gadol and who is not, what is Kefirah and lehavdil what is true Emunah. Does anyone here have smicha to paken shailos in Halacha? Would anyone here consider himself qualified to give medical advice if that isn’t his profession? So why are we sometimes so quick to think that we are all qualified to pasken someone is a kofer ח״ו? I actually went to ask a שאלה what to do, and the Rov I asked told me that it’s better to stay away altogether from these kind of ‘chat rooms’, for a number of reasons, but most especially because it just becomes a contest who gets the last word, which is not good for middos, and also means that it’s very unlikely that anyone would be מקבל anything meaningful in such a context. This is aside from the danger of lashon hara, bizui talmidei chachamim, and other very real issurim that go out the window when everyone has to prove his point at all costs. I am writing this last post מצד דרך ארץ not to abruptly disappear and ignore those who I was conversing with.
דרך אגב – I am not ‘Yeshivish’, or Lubavitcher, I am a Chossid (of a different Chassidus), as I have said on other threads. My main Rebbe זצ״ל was among the many Gedolim who did hold of the Lubavitcher Rebbe. I am well aware that there were other Gedolim who held differently. By now basically everyone in Klal Yisroel who doesn’t live under a rock has is aware of both sides of this issue, and there really isn’t anything for people like us to add. If someone here is a שליח בית דין or otherwise acting upon the guidance of real דעת תורה, then ignore what I said. If not, think it over, maybe ask someone bigger, and choose what to do.
כתיבה וחתימה טובה, and all the best.
that follows a pattern .
valid questions about immense claims consistently remain unanswered
under the illusory hope that they will be swept under the carpet
but guess what
the carpet is not big enough ….
.
.
think YYA , if he has real answers , he should publish them .if he does not , it should rightfully be considered as a concession to those concerns
.
.To yankel berel
You claim that the L Rebbe disparaged the Chazon Ish. Could you elaborate?
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