- This topic has 53 replies, 20 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 2 months ago by hi100.
March 15, 2009 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #589604
Shulchon Oruch 429:1 We learn Hilchos Pesach 30 days before the Yom Tov. (From Gemara Pesachim 6a)
Taz on 429:1: the Ran, (and Rashi) says on this that Moshe Rabbeinu corrected Bnei Yisroel on Hilchos Pesach Sheini on Pesach Rishon*, which is 30
days before, 14th of Nisan to 14th of Iyar. Thus we learn out that we learn Hilchos Pesach 30 days beforehand.
*This information is based on the Gemara in Pesachim 6a, as the Be’er HaGolah says, and a piece of halacha to any Rov on this forum is
that shailos about Hilchos Pesach take precedence over shailos about daily matters at this time,as it says in that Gemara.
The Magen Avrohom says on the relevant sif, quoting the Bach: When saying 30 days, the Shulchon Oruch also means Yom Tov, so it is
not Erev Yom Tov minus 30 days that the chiyuv to learn Hilchos Pesach starts, it is Yom Tov minus 30 days when it starts.
The Be’er Heitev says that it is for the rest of the Yamim Tovim, which is plural, possibly implying that it is the last Yom Tov, not only
the first, contradicting the Magen Avrohom, but that is disproven since the Be’er Heitev quotes the same Bach as the Magen Avrohom.
The Rashba also says on the Gemara in Pesachim 6a, that we learn Hilchos Pesach 30 days before until Pesach, we also review them during Pesach.
The Rashba says on the same daf, in which the Rashba says: ‘I have heard that it is 30 days before Pesach that it is said in the Gemara to ask shailos
about Hilchos Pesach, but it is not said to answer, and I learn from this that it is as it says in Pirkei Avos 5:46 , that says: A Talmid Chacham asks like
the topic and answers like halacha.’**
* The Be’er Moshe says on this that this is learned from the fact that the Gemara dosen’t explain dorshin, only explaining shoalin, (thus saying that
it is not a chiyuv, since it isn’t even explained fully in the Gemara! Rather a reasonable thing to say is it is merely to be on topic, that 30 days before is
long enough to be considered like it is the daily topic, that Pesach is close.
*Thus the Rashba holds it is not a chiyuv, rather it is just practical advice, like the Taz says (see below)
The Taz, however, contradicts the Magen Avrohom and the Be’er Heitev according to my interpretations of their words, who say that there is a chiyuv
to learn Hilchos Pesach, meanwhile agreeing with the Rashba . The Taz says that the Shulchan Oruch said that you should learn Hilchos Pesach 30 days
before to stay on topic.
Rashi on Succah 9a says that ‘it is part of the Halachos of the holiday that anything having to do with it should be started 30 days previously.’ This
connotates by Rashi’s use of the word Halachos and by the Mishna it pertains to, which is not talking about anything optional to do before Succos,
rather pertaining to if a succah is posul or not, which is halacha, that Rashi is of the opinion that preparation for a holiday is 30 days before, and so he
says it is halacha.
The Biur HaGra on the Shulchan Oruch 429:1 brings in the proof of Rashi, not the Rashba on this matter, thus implying that the Gra says it is a chiyuv,
like Rashi does.
The Birkei Yosef quotes the Gemara in Megila 4a, in which R’ Yehoshua ben Levi says that shailos about Purim take strict precedence when being
darshened, just like Moshe Rabbeinu did before Pesach Sheni during Pesach. He does not bring anything else on this, implying that there is a
connection between the Gemara in Megila and the Gemara in Pesachim, that connection is that you must darshen shailos about Hilchos Pesach before
regular shailos, and so the Birkei Yosef is contradicting the Rashba’s view that there is no explaining of ‘dorshin’ in the Gemara in Pesachim 6a, so
agreeing with the Shulchan Oruch, aka the Beis Yosef.
The Beis Yosef on the Tur quotes the same Gemara in Megila as the Birkei Yosef, also quoting the Gemara in Pesachim, saying that ‘We are OBLIGATED
to ask and to darshen about Hilchos Pesach 30 days before.’ The Beis Yosef later continues: ‘If there are two students, one asks like the topic, and
another not like the topic, you must answer the one who asked like the topic first. And so it is with Hilchos Pesach, that if you learn them 30 days before
Pesach, you are asking like the matter (and so your shaila should be darshened before off-topic shailos), and so is the explanation of the Ran**.
*The Taz also quotes the Ran (see above), and he holds differently than the Beis Yosef. It must be a different explanation of the Ran’s words. I am
ordering a Kovetz Meforshim Pesachim, and so will be able to look into the matter.
*This is a very interesting approach that the Beis Yosef takes, quoting the Mishna in Pirkei Avos: ‘A Talmid Chacham asks like the matter etc.’, but
meanwhile he holds it is based on that Mishna but is still an obligation, not practical advice like the Taz and the Rashba said.
The Bach meanwhile holds an interesting position, saying that you are not obligated to answer the shailos, but you are obligated to ak shailos about
Hilchos Pesach, and during Pesach you are obligated to darshen them. The Magen Avrohom and Be’er Heitev were quoting the Bach’s opinion that you
are obligated to ask shailos, but from what time do you ask, but the Bach says that you are not obligated to darshen until the actual Yom Tov of Pesach.
The Shulchan Oruch was written by the Beis Yosef, let’s not forget, and the Rema makes no contradiction of the Beis Yosef on the Tur in this sif, and
this sif based is on the opinion R’ Yosef Karo holds from the Beis Yosef, and the Rema meanwhile introduces a minhag to buy wheat for the poor, saying:
And it is customary to buy wheat for distribution to the poor for their passover needs, and anyone who is a resident of the city for at least 12 months
must donate to this cause.
The Rosh Yosef says on Pesachim 6a that Shoalin means what is needed later, and dorshin means what is needed now, thus supporting the Bach’s
opinion that you must ask shailos about Hilchos Pesach, that are for later, aka during Pesach, and you are obligated to darshen them DURING
Pesach, aka now, because the shailos are going to be put into action now, during Pesach.
The Kaf HaChayim says nothing on this, quoting the Beis Yosef on a different reason for the thirty days, so not contradicting the Shulchan Oruch or
SUMMARY: The Gra, Beis Yosef, Birkei Yosef, Rashi, Magen Avrohom, Be’er Heitev, Rema, and the Kaf HaChayim all say there is an obligation to learn
Hilchos Pesach 30 days before.
Meanwhile the Bach and Rosh Yosef both say that you are obligated to learn Hilchos Pesach and ask shailos on them within the 30 day period, but you
are not obligated to darshen them until it is actually Pesach.
Also The Taz and the Rashba both say it is merely practical advice, based on what it says in Pirkei Avos 5:46, ‘A Talmid Chacham asks like the matter
and answers like halacha.’
This is all based on my interpretation of these poskim’s words. If you disagree with me on any point of this essay please post it here and let’s discuss itMarch 17, 2009 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #642183
dosne’t anyone want to have a halachic discussion w/ me? 🙁March 18, 2009 2:26 am at 2:26 am #642184I can only tryMember
Whether or not people comment on it, this post clearly had lots of thought put into it and quite a bit of research done with the many different meforshim and marei mekomos that you list and discuss.
Don’t get discouraged, I’m sure many people have read it.March 18, 2009 2:43 am at 2:43 am #642185anon for thisParticipant
Thanks for the post. I am not knowledgeable enough to discuss it, but I did read & appreciate it.March 18, 2009 3:07 am at 3:07 am #642186moish01Member
of course i read it. i read everything 😉
but to quote anon, unfortunately i’m not knowledgeable enough to discuss it…March 18, 2009 4:04 am at 4:04 am #642187anonymisssParticipant
yeah, I tried to read it, but to misquote anon, unfortunately, I’m not knowledgeable enough to even follow such a long, convoluted discourse.
~a~March 18, 2009 4:20 am at 4:20 am #642188
David, I read it, not quite sure what you want to discuss… I do second ICOT’s post that people have read it, and work went into it (I’m just thinking of the typing part and I’m getting tired, let alone actually learning it and translating etc) 🙂March 18, 2009 7:26 am at 7:26 am #642189
David S.: wow what an amazing thread you started. your post i did read it is very well thought out.March 18, 2009 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #642190
David, I read it, confess to not knowing exactly what you wanted to discuss about it, and if you will just write in a sentence or two what type of discussion you hope to generate, I will gladly take part. There is nothing controversial or arguable in your well-written post. Clearly, it is incumbent on all of us to start talking about hilchos Pesach now, and most of the women in the CR have no doubt begun planning for Pesach immediately post-Purim. I will presume that includes discussion with one’s LOR about pertinent halachos.March 18, 2009 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #642191cherrybimParticipant
I think, practically speaking, there are so many halachos to learn l’inyan Pesach and you want to continue your regular learning so unless you’re a Rav or in Yeshiva; WHO has the time to also darshan halachos of pesach, especially before Pesach? Asking l’maise shailos, of course, is part of learning hilchos Pesach.
Your lomdeshe piece, however, would make for a great Shabbos Hagadol drasha.March 18, 2009 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #642192
I am sorry if people took me really seriously there, I just thought people hadnt seen the post and it hadnt been answered 4 2 days so i decided to put it back up to make some attention. I am sorry I didnt specify what i wanted 2 discuss, and the issue is if anyone can bring anything from other meforshim contradicting or question me on my translation… again I didn’t mean to complain or anything, just was to get it so people could read… sorry 4 wasting ur time reading the 2nd post
Thanks, DavidMarch 18, 2009 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #642193
David, What is your reason for not making a bracha on the charoses?March 19, 2009 12:12 am at 12:12 am #642194
oy vey, JayMatt I think you might catch me w/ out an answer here, but I’ll try as hard as possible, I know a good source on it but I will be hard-put to get it now that I dont have Otzar HaHochmaMarch 19, 2009 1:08 am at 1:08 am #642195
I knew the issue and its answer! I just remembered! It was in the Yalkut yosef on Hilchos Bikur Cholim, on why don’t you make a bracha on the mitzvah of bikur cholim! The problem is, I don’t have that sefer, I’m going to rent Otzar HaHochma for 1 day after this Motzaei Shabbos, and I’ll give the answer on Sunday. Any other shailos, please ask before Erev Shabbos!
***EDITED*** Please do not include email addresses in your posts. YW Moderator-72March 20, 2009 2:13 am at 2:13 am #642196
i am sorry mod72 didnt notice ur posts, didnt check this thread for a while. anyway i wanted to say but forgot: Thank you all for the compliments! kapusta and oomis, do you have a shaila for me or anything? of course ask your Rov as well, i am no big halachik authority (on the contrarity i have absolutely no halachik authority whatsoever) but i still could put some research into it 😉 I’ll answer it by Monday evening guaranteed, if not earlier 🙂
thanks, DavidMarch 22, 2009 2:58 am at 2:58 am #642198
Hilchos Pesach update coming tomorrow night on JayMatt’s shaila. Also new article on Hilchos Pesach coming as soon as possible. Its title is: Issues from different Shuts and Shulchan Oruch 429:2!
Thanks, DavidMarch 22, 2009 1:24 pm at 1:24 pm #642199
JayMatt if you look at the beginning of the YalkutYosef on Hilchos Bikur Cholim you can find it. I remember it from when I was learning Hilchos Bikur Cholim last summer. Unfortunately I don’t have the sefer with me now, and Otzar HaHochma dosen’t work, so I can’t give the answer, only quote the source.
Thanks, DavidMarch 22, 2009 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #642200
I once gave a shiur on it Shabbos HaGadol after Kabbolas Shabbos before Barchu. I was wondering if my results were inline with yours.
If I get a chance, iy”h I’ll post it either in this forum, or in the Dvar Torah thread. I hope to see you there.
-Wink, WinkMarch 22, 2009 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #642201
See you there 🙂March 22, 2009 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #642202
I am asking my Rov anyway, as he is the final authority for my shailos, but I am curious as to what you will find, David. What is the position regarding the use of an electric urn over yom tov, that is used all year round? If it is stainless steel must it be kashered for Pesach, being that all that it is used for is to boil water, and CAN it even be kashered for Pesach, or do we need a separate one?March 23, 2009 3:46 am at 3:46 am #642203
The Shulchan Oruch 429:2 rules that we do not say Tachanun all of the month of Nisan**, and we don’t say
“Tzidkoscha” in Minchah for Shabbos. We also do not say eulogies. We do not fast, neither to remember
(tragedies) nor in a community*
*There are different reasons for this. The Be’er HaGolah on this sif brings us to the Halacha in
Maseches Sofrim (21:2-the middle of 21:4), which says that it is because the Mishkan was erected on the 1st of
Nisan (aka for a month afterwards you should not fast because of the Mishkan being erected, a happy event),
and the Nasiyim, when each of them brought their Korban for the Mishkan, they each had a Yom Tov, and we
should not fast when the Nesiyim had a Yom Tov. But there were only 12 Nesiyim and 13 days before Pesach
(excluding Erev Pesach, because not everyone is a firstborn and fasts on Erev Pesach)!
The answer is (maybe, this is just a guess): ” One of the days that the Nesiyim were supposed to bring their
Korbanos was Shabbos ,and we do know that we don’t bring personal Korbanos on Shabbos. So 13-1=12 days.
Another answer (this one better than mine, brought in Birkei Yosef): The 13th day before Taanis
HaBechoros is to count when Aharon made his ‘Korban’ lighting the Menorah, that it was a Yom Tov.
*The Mikra Sofrim notes that if it was only 12 days, why fast the whole month? Because if you count the Yamim
Tovim of Pesach, which are 4 days in the Golus, 2 in E”Y and the Shabbos that is most probably Chol HaMoed,
it is 19 days (in the Golus=Taanis HaBechoros ), 18 if Shabbos is Chol HaMoed, which is a majority of the
month. And in E”Y theYom Tov is only one day, so if the Yom Tov is Shabbos, that means there are two
Shabbosos during that Pesach. So 12+2=14, and add on the fast of the bechoros and you have 15 days, which is
1/2, which is counted as a majority, of a month. If you go by the explanation of the Birkei Yosef just add one
day to each calculation.
(Continuation of the last note) The Nachalas Yaakov quotes the Beis Yosef on the Tur, who gives the same
opinion as the Mikra Sofrim, that since the majority of the month is holy, the rest is as well, and thus you
do not fast during the whole month of Nisan. The Be’er Heitev, the Bach and the Prisha on the Tur also hold
the same opinion.
*The Magen Avrohom notes that this excludes private fasts, which you CAN do during Nisan, since this is not
mentioned as an issur to do during Nisan by the Shulchan Oruch in the sif quoted above.
The Tur adds We do not fall on our faces during Nisan, not during the day and not during the night.
Why do we need the “During the night? The Beis Yosef answers that this is to the places that are accustomed
to say Tachanun at night.
The Bach asks a question on the peculiar wording of the Halacha in Sofrim 21:2, “WHY DO WE NOT fast
during Nisan?” Rather say, “Why do we fast during Nisan?” Why use the double negative? The Bach
answers that we might have thought that the 3 first days of Nisan, when Ester really fasted, we might as well
fast too, but we are informed not to. The Halacha in Sofrim thus says “Why don’t we fast (those three days)
The Gra only quotes the Halacha in Sofrim in the Biur HaGra on the relevant sif in the Shulchan Oruch.
The Taz says on “And the firstborn fast” that students fast to recompensate for the three days (according to
my understanding). “How is this possible?” you might ask. They are fasting with no excuse, if they are not
firstborn. The answer is that the Taz holds like the Magen Avrohom who says that PRIVATE FASTS ARE
ALLOWED. The Taz holds that this is categorized as a private fast.
The Ateres Zakeinim says when you are supposed to say Tachanun every day and you are not supposed to
during Nisan. And you are not supposed to remember Neshamos. And people do, after Pesach, say Tachanun
and fast for yartzeits, which says it is permissible after Pesach to say Tachanun and fast for a yartzeit,
because it is a private fast, not a communal one. But it is forbidden to publicly remember them (aka speeches)
until Nisan is over. So some people make the public remembrances before Nisan, like the Maharil said.
The Eishel Avrohom notes that the Shulchan Oruch speaks in the way of “It is a complete issur to say Tachanun
during Nisan.’ It is not just a minhag. It is a strict halacha.March 23, 2009 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #642204proud tattyMember
side question which just popped into my brain after reading your previous piece (wonderfully written by the way)
Why no tachanun on bet sivan?March 23, 2009 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #642205
David, What is your reason for not making a bracha on the charoses?
Would that be because the charoses is part of the koreich and we already are making a bracha on the maror, for which there is a mitzvah, unlike the charoses alone which is simnply a zeicher?March 23, 2009 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #642206
proudtatty, thank you very much for the compliment, and I will look into the matter :).
oomis! Shkoyach! That is it! You got it! I remember now! The Yalkut Yosef quotes the Ramban, who says that any mitzvah that depends on another thing, like the charoses depends on the availability of the ingredients and is just a zeicher with no real SPECIFICS. But the maror is a mitzvah, and you should try as hard as possible to do it, no exceptions! Yasher Koach! I almost forgot!March 23, 2009 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #642207
Also, I didn’t add this in to my essay, but I am adding this on.
On the Ateres Zekeinim:
*This is not a permission, rather this is a PROHIBITION of fasting PRIVATELY for a yahrtzeit before Pesach,
and the assumed reason is that when the Bach, the Beis Yosef, the Be’er Heitev, the Mikra Sofrim, the Nachalas
Yaakov, and the Prisha on the Tur say that we don’t say Tachanun for the whole month of Nisan because 1/2
or more is holy, therefore the rest is as well. Kal va’Chomer the part that is actually holy and not caused to be
holy by the other days, you should not fast on, EVEN privately. But however if you go by the opinion of the
Chayei Odom (see below), who says that even private fasts and yahrtzeits are not to be observed during the
whole month of Nisan, this is a leniency, and is not accepted.
The Chayei Odom disagrees with the Magen Avrohom, the Taz, and the Ateres Zekeinim, saying that even a private fast is prohibited, also fasting for a yartzeit is forbidden. Kal va’Chomer remembering in public is an issur. The Chayei Odom is not the rov opinion, and so you might as well fast privately during Nisan and not disobey the halacha. But if you would like to be machmir upon yourself and not fast, even privately, or even for a yartzeit, it is halachically permissible and there is no problem.
Thanks, DavidMarch 24, 2009 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #642208
Yasher Koach! I almost forgot!
Thanks, once in a while I think logically 😉March 25, 2009 3:58 am at 3:58 am #642209
oomis, you stumped me so far, give me another week or so please 🙂
proudtatty: Rashi says on Shemos 19:1 that Bnei Yisroel camped at Har Sinai on Alef Sivan, and when it says in pasuk gimel VeMoshe alah, it is on Beis Sivan.
So we don’t say Tachanun then to commemorate the 1st time Moshe went up Har Sinai, if my information is correct. 🙂
Thanks, DavidMarch 25, 2009 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #642210
oomis, you stumped me so far, give me another week or so please 🙂
Whoops! Did I do THAT????????? Here’s another one – How does one kasher the grates in a self-cleaning oven if they must be removed prior to using the self-clean cycle?March 25, 2009 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #642211
Oy gevalt! an even tougher shaila!
:^OMarch 25, 2009 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #642212YW Moderator-39Member
Obviously it would be ideal to keep them in for the cleaning process. Otherwise, I believe libun (kashering via heat from a blowtorch) would be the proper method.
David S. am I correct?March 25, 2009 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #642213squeakParticipant
Yeah, leave them in the oven during the self clean. I even put the range pieces in for the cycle, though I know you’re not supposed to. You can’t follow all the instructions in the manual – live on the wild side!March 25, 2009 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #642214
YW Moderator, according to common sense, you are totally right.
squeak, same thing.
The thing is I wondered if anyone could find some sources or help me please? That help’d be appreciated.
BTW: Hilchos Pesach Update coming tomorrow night!March 25, 2009 10:55 pm at 10:55 pm #642216
David, since you check this thread, please look at the middah thread thanx 🙂March 26, 2009 1:25 am at 1:25 am #642217
I will. (kapusta were you referring to your post about the source for being funny in the Gemara by any chance? 🙂 )March 26, 2009 8:16 am at 8:16 am #642218PMMember
The oven racks and stove grates may be kashered inside the oven during the self-clean cycle, Guidelines p33.March 26, 2009 11:35 am at 11:35 am #642219
thanks PMMarch 26, 2009 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #642220
I don’t have a self-clean oven, this was a shailah that someone asked of me, and of course I referred her to her LOR, but she told me the grates are not supposed to be in the oven for the self-clean (maybe it hurts the finish on the grates????), so if that is true, I would imagine blow torches would be even more problematic. Oh well. Thanks for all the responses.March 29, 2009 1:31 am at 1:31 am #642221yankdownunderMember
If one has Shmura Machine Matzahs in a sealed unopened box from last year or from previous years, can he or she use them for the entire chag this Pesaach? If not what is the source for not being able to use them? Are there different Minhagim for Ashkenaz and Sefardim regarding using Matzahs not baked this year?March 29, 2009 7:03 am at 7:03 am #642222PMMember
There is no problem in Halacha using matza from last year, provided it was stored properly.April 2, 2009 2:12 am at 2:12 am #642223
I have an original or so I think) vort.
Here it is:
Why are we not allowed to eat chomeitz and allowed to eat matzoh (other than the pshat reason, which is mentioned in the Torah)?
The answer is that this is leZeicher Yetzias Mitzroyim, since Bnei Yisroel were like chomeitz, puffed up, in good positions, Yoseif was high-ranking, and they were multiplying very quickly. Then Hash-m made us like matzoh, ‘baking’ us in our tzoros, making us avodim to the Mitzrim and making us do avoidas perech, and we were ready to snap, being on the 49th level of tumaah, being fed hard-to-digest matzoh in order not to be fed by the Mitzrim often, as the Shelah says on Maseches Pesochim, and then Hash-m Yisboroch took us out at just the right time, with ultimate precision, right before we were to descend to the ultimate impure level of contamination. This is a commemoration to the state we were in before leaving Mitzroyim, how thin we were, how close to destruction and complete contamination and impurity we had been, before Hash-m with divine precision and timing, took us out from the beis avodim.
Thanks, DavidApril 2, 2009 7:38 am at 7:38 am #642224
David, Why do you steadfastly refuse to post in the dvar torah thread?April 2, 2009 7:53 am at 7:53 am #642225
JayMatt: you red my mind!April 2, 2009 7:59 am at 7:59 am #642226YW Moderator-42Moderator
Who did he red your mind to?April 2, 2009 8:00 am at 8:00 am #642227
mod42: ha sweet! i really need spelling lessons!April 2, 2009 8:03 am at 8:03 am #642228April 2, 2009 11:33 am at 11:33 am #642229
lol, sorry, but I just had decided to post here in the Hilchos Pesach thread because it had been without posts for three days and it would get out of sight on the main coffeeroom page soon. I had wanted to keep this thread actively running till Pesach.
thanks, DavidApril 2, 2009 12:36 pm at 12:36 pm #642230seeallsidesParticipant
So question about the hot water urn – if u could use from all year round – sorry if u answered already i didn’t notice it – (i think it must be a problem in my house – as who is careful about the cake they are eating crumbling near it, maybe in the cup that you take the water with, or spill and goes under it?)
Also all year round meat slicer that is used exclusively and carefully for only meat? can you use to slice meat for pesach?April 2, 2009 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #642231
seeallsides to your second question: I think it can be used, as long as it was used with only non-seasoned meat or non-breaded, in which no question of contact with chomeitz could be suspected. But be sure to ask your rov! I am not a poseik and have no authority whatsoever.April 6, 2009 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #642232
that was Pesach Torah I wrote. I probably didn’t have enough sleep or something 🙁 anyway the real answer is: from Rabbi Israel Katz from North Miami: it needs to be kashered because it was put in an non-kosher-for-pesach dishwasher, if I remember correctly.
Thanks, DavidApril 6, 2009 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #642233yossieaParticipant
I wouldn’t use the meat slicer, you never know what type of meat was cut. Can you be certain that you never cut pastrami or other cured meats?
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