Hilchus Yichud

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  • #595298
    observanteen
    Member

    I just read somewhere that if you’re oiver on yichud, you’re oiver EVERY SECOND! I don’t think there’s an awareness to this aveira. What do you think?

    #744206
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    What do you think?

    That you’ve just made people aware.

    The Wolf

    #744207

    Some Yichud is Derabbonon, and some is Deorayse.

    #744208
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    How is this different from other aveiros?

    Aren’t you sinning the entire time you are performing an aveira?

    #744209
    mytake
    Member

    When I was in HS we learnt the halachos of Yichud thoroughly. I don’t know about other schools/sems, though.

    #744210
    RSRH
    Member

    observanteen: Could you provide a source for this. On the one hand it makes intuitive sense, but on the other hand, since there is a specific minimum time one need to be miyacheid in order to be over the issur, there is a good reason to think one is only over for each relevant time frame (3 min./5 min./7 mi./9 min., whatever opinion one adopts). Compare to the issur of achilas sheretz for example: If one grabs a handful of ants and begins to eat, he is liable for each kizayis/whole ant (depending on whether the ants are whole or crushed). If I were to eat 1.9 kizaysim, I would still only be liable once (min hatorah, at least). If I am miyached for 1.9 periods of time, then, why should I be liable for more than one issur? There are good distinctions to be made here, just wondering if you have a source.

    #744211

    RSRH: Once they have hit the minimum time, why would a whole new time frame be needed for the next issur. The issur is “yichud”, in-and-on-its-own, regardless of action.

    Actions have their own isssurim.

    #744212
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I don’t know who told you that, but it seems like simple sensationalism.

    Do you think that the issur is worse because it is technichally an issur every second instead of one big issur?

    Do you think G-d is playing “Gotcha” and finds ways to multiply your aveiros?

    So I don’t know if it is one issur or multiple, but it really makes no difference to me.

    You are not allowed to do it, and it is a serious issur; that is enough for me.

    #744213
    RSRH
    Member

    truth be told: I could easily reason that since it takes 3 min. (lets just use that time frame) to be over an issur yichud, I can only be over once every 3 min. If yichud begins at 12:00, at 12:03 I am over issur #1. I suppose you could say that at 12:04 I am over issur #2 (from 12:01-12:04), but that would mean I am being punished twice for the time I was miyached between 12:01-12:03. That might not be an issue, but it may. There is an extensive discussion in Makkos (sorry don’t have the exact cite offhand) related to znus – i.e., whether if one has relations with one woman who happens to cover several issurim (i.e., the woman is the perpetrator’s sister, is an eishes ish, is a niddah) he can be liable for several issurim, or is just liable for the strictest one (in this case it would depend on the resolution of the machlokes whether missah or kares is more chamur).

    #744214
    observanteen
    Member

    Poppa: no, I don’t think Hashem’s playing “Gotcha'”. It’s just that we learn it in school and I’ve never been aware that it’s not “just” one aveira, but, you’re oiver every second. Some ppl just don’t realize the magnitude of the aveirah. They think it’s just for “one minute”.

    #744215
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    observanteen:

    I assure you, the magnitude of the aveira has nothing to do with how many counts you are oiver on.

    It has to do with how hard the nisayon was, and perhaps how chamur the inyan is.

    Yichud is very chamur, but it is not made more chamur by technicalities about how many aveiros we can slam you with.

    #744216
    Tums
    Member

    Is an elevator yichud? (Why or why not?)

    #744217

    some poskim say yes it is yichud

    Shevet Halevi Vol. 3:184. Chelkas Yaakov Vol. 2:14 and Minchas Yitzchok Vol. 4:94 rule that Yichud in an elevator is only permitted b’dieved

    most say no (because the elevator is likely to stop and the door opened to the public at any moment)

    #744218
    Tums
    Member

    Thank you

    #744219
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I assure you, the magnitude of the aveira has nothing to do with how many counts you are oiver on.

    It has to do with how hard the nisayon was, and perhaps how chamur the inyan is.

    Famous Machlokes Rambam & Rabbanu Yonah!

    #744220
    Tums
    Member

    Does anyone know specifically which poskim mattir an elevator? (Mod-80 already cited the Shevet Halevi who say’s l’chatchila it is assur.)

    #744221
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Is an elevator yichud? (Why or why not?)

    Most elevators (all that I see) have cameras to the security desk. Perhaps it is a question for old-style elevators.

    #744222

    i think the general consensus of those that permit it is that in circumstances such as a small private building, or late at night, etc. one should be machmir if at all possible

    #744223

    See Igros Moshe, Even HoEzer Vol. 4:65:16; Mishneh Halachos Vol. 4:187; Tzitz Eliezer Vol. 6:22:4

    #744224
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Camera only helps if you know it is there. I don’t know it is there.

    #744225
    guy-ocho
    Member

    an elevator doesn’t present a problem according to many opinions as it doesn’t meet the minimum yichud issur requirements. If you can avoid it discreetly that would cover all doubts. However in doing so, make sure not to embarrass or make the other person uncomfortable. It is better to go in the elevator and according to most not be oiver, than to hurt someones feelings.

    #744226
    observanteen
    Member

    An elevator is not yichud, bc it’s for a very short time. If, however, it is maneuvered by a man, it’s a sheila.

    #744227
    Tums
    Member

    an elevator doesn’t present a problem according to many opinions as it doesn’t meet the minimum yichud issur requirements.

    Depends how many floors you’re going up (NYC buildings tend to be tall), and how fast the elevator is.

    It is better to go in the elevator and according to most not be oiver, than to hurt someones feelings.

    If your mora d’asra holds it is assur, then your statement is incorrect.

    #744228
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    RSRH: I think you’re making a mistake when you treat “oiver” and “liable” as interchangable terms. You are not liable until you complete a 3-minute period (thought it was 8 but that’s a separate discussion) but in general we would consider even one minute to fall under the rubric of chatzi shiur assur min hatorah. So if you’re already going to try and play God’s accountant by adding up all the issurim, then you can theoretically count every planck unit as a separate lav, but I doubt it makes any real difference.

    gavra: Are you sure that the machlokes RaMBaM and Rabbeinu Yonah is even a machlokes at all? Could be they both agree but from a perspective of tikkun hamiddos and sur merah it would be more useful to look at it the way that Rabbeinu Yonah says, while when it comes to halacha l’ma’aseh even he would pasken like the RaMBaM.

    #744229
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    then you can theoretically count every planck unit as a separate lav

    Heh. I think that’s the first time I’ve ever heard anyone refer to a Planck unit of time in a halachic discussion. 🙂 What’s next? Do you transgress a separate lav for every Planck unit of distance you travel beyond the techum Shabbos? 🙂

    The Wolf

    #744230
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Why not? As the mishnah says ?? ?? ??? ???? ??? I find myself saying that a lot lately.

    #744231
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    in general we would consider even one minute to fall under the rubric of chatzi shiur assur min hatorah

    Yes, but there are exceptions, such as ???? ??’ ???? on ???. I don’t know that this isn’t the same, since there’s a specific reason for the ?????; it’s the time it takes to be ???? the ????? which ???? is a ??? for. (???? ??’ ???? on ??? is less than the ????? ????.)

    #744232
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Why not? As the mishnah says ?? ?? ??? ???? ??? I find myself saying that a lot lately.

    Ah, but does that get muddied up by the machlokes of efsher l’tzamtzem? If you can’t accurately define the unit of length (or time), how can you say you transgress exactly because of that amount? 🙂

    The Wolf

    #744233
    frum not crum
    Participant

    I learned last week that yichud starts at 37 seconds, i.e. if a female and two males (unrelated to her) are the only ones in an area (during the day) and one male leaves, the remaining male or the female has 37 seconds to leave the situation.

    I hope I made that as clear as possible.

    #744234
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    daas: Point taken. I was going “l’shitasam” since everyone else was treating yichud as it’s own issur.

    frum not crum: 37? That sounds somewhat far fetched to me given that the reason for yichud is what daas already alluded to. Do you have a source?

    #744235
    aries2756
    Participant

    why can’t we just assume that at this day and age EVERY elevator has a camera, just because you can’t see it doesn’t mean it is not there!

    #744236
    yeshivaguy1
    Participant

    don’t know where 37 seconds come from. It seems like a random arbitrary number

    #744237
    frum not crum
    Participant

    Re:37 seconds

    That’s what we learned in halacha.

    #744239
    RSRH
    Member

    frum, that sounds quite krum 🙂 but seriously, do you have a citation? Anyone, including a teacher unfortunately, can pull an arbitrary number out of a hat. There may well be a legitimate source for 37 sec., but I would be curious to know what it is. . .

    #744240
    smartcookie
    Member

    I live in an elevator bldg. I constantly ride with men. It’s not Yichud because it can anytime open at ANY floor if a neighbor on any floor rang for it.

    Anyway- riding in a car late at night with a man (dating), has a biggur Shailoh in Yichud than elevators.

    #744241
    canine
    Member

    Anyway- riding in a car late at night with a man (dating), has a biggur Shailoh in Yichud than elevators.

    Anyone know of the heter or issur when riding in a car?

    #744242
    observanteen
    Member

    smartcookie: true. I had to ride in a car with my friend at night, (with a male driver) but, I refused cuz I said it’s yichud. My friend said she’s allowed cuz her father was in our city (baalei beiur). I said it was assur. Anyway, we whent home with a lady driver in the end, but, later learned that I was right. It was totally assur!(It was past 11:00)

    #744243
    Jam
    Participant

    observanteen- “It was totally assur!(It was past 11:00)”

    The fact that it was past 11 doesn’t necessarily make it assur. Timing depends on how populated the location is at the hour. Less populated areas may be considered yichud in a much earlier time than higher populated areas. (and vise versa)

    Either way, I’m glad you stuck to your guts- its a good midda!

    #744244
    littleeema
    Participant

    observanteen –

    you “just read somewhere” – source, please? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? (???? ?)

    and your friend had a heter of ???? ???? because her FATHER was in the city??

    What are they teaching you girls these days?

    My advice – when you get to sem, learn well, stay off the internet and grow up

    #744245

    Riding in a car at night, if I remember corectly, on roads that have continuous passerby, is permissible. Where I had seen it “contiuous” was a machlokos.

    #744246
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    frum not crum

    Member

    Re:37 seconds

    That’s what we learned in halacha.

    Just proves you can’t trust everything you hear. Look it up for yourself.

    Can I assume you are a girl? A boy (generally) would not be taught “THIS IS THE HALACHA” without a source.

    Also, Yichud with a non-jew (which Rov says you can assume) is a Gezairah of the Tannaim, not a Lav. Even a NIddah Yisraelis is questionable.

    (From Avoda Zara 36B)

    ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ????? <?????? ??????> {?????} ?? ???? ????? ???? ???’ ?????? <?????? ??????> {?????} ????? ??? ????? ???????? ??? ???? ?’ ????? ???? ?”? ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ????? (????? ??) ?? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ???????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???’ ?????? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???’ ?????? <?????? ??????> {?????}

    #744247
    smartcookie
    Member

    Observ- I think it depends if it’s through busy streets where people can look into your car anytime, or if it’s through small empty streets.

    The point is that people don’t know that this might be a BIG problem in Yichud.

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