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Has anyone here had the zchus to have a home birth, that can share their experiences and knowledge? How did you go about it? How did it work it? What is good to know and do beforehand?
Why would you call it a Zechus? It’s a tremendous Pikuach Nefesh for no reason.
Sam2: when is the last time you tried it??
Sushe: I personally do not recommend it, you never know what can come up?? Try taking a good doula and enjoy the birthing experience(mofes)!
Both of my births were at a Birth Center with midwives and were wonderful and empowering. Out in 4 hours after delivery which was great! I hope my next will be at home. With a qualified midwife present, they are very safe.
Also, you may want to check imamother – there are several ladies over there who have given birth at home.
A relative told me – I want to give birth the way my grandmother did. So I asked: with the same mortality rate ?
Why would you call it a Zechus? It’s a tremendous Pikuach Nefesh for no reason.
Why do you say its Pikuach Nefesh, thats the way it was done for thousands of years
Anyone that I know personally who had home births were not done by choice and would not repeat!
I feel that it is a sakana, for both mother and baby. Hospitals have gottne more “homey” so as to be more comfortable as well as including birthing centers that are even less “medical” seeming, but with doctors only a step away.
Zahavasdad- you do know that it was far more common for mothers to die in childbirth before all the hospital and medical intervention.
people who have these type of births are concerned with the hospital protocals of doctor’s procedures which are performed after the birth as well. There are places which administer giving vaccines/medines to the freshly born infant which some mothers are concerned about. I personally have never had this delivery experience with any of my children but i am concerned with the (unnecessary?) amount of vaccines/medicines which are given as a “prevention” for any “diseases” which MIGHT harm the child. For those people who are anti-vaccinations, feel these vaccines do more harm than good. This is my theory.
Giving birth is a sakanos nefashos- We are mechalel Shabbos for both mother and unborn baby.
SupportSurvivors- “Out in 4 hours after delivery which was great”??? Hard to believe. Did you head straight to the pizza shop for lunch too? If you want to be out in 4 hours after birth in the hospital you can sign an AMA and leave too.
“With a qualified midwife present, they are very safe.”- Its very safe with an unqualified midwife too, as long as NOTHING goes wrong.
Be smart and safe, rather than be sorry.
Hi Sushe,
I had one and would love to share my experience and knowledge with you but would prefer not to do so in a “public forum.” If you can obtain my email address from the mods, feel free to send me an email!
I’m a doula and i’m applying to nursing school and hope to one day be a midwife. I know both sides of the argument and honestly, I do and always will believe that a hospital is better equipped to handle any birthing situation.
smartcookie,
Zahavasdad- you do know that it was far more common for mothers to die in childbirth before all the hospital and medical intervention.
Many (even most?) of the complications that arise during pregnancy and childbirth, e.g., eclampsia, breech, gestational diabetes, do not come up suddenly and without warning. In the past, there was no knowledge or ability to deal with these issues. That is not the case today, so it is an error to equate today’s home births to births two hundred years ago.
I think that a home birth managed by medical professionals, such as certified nurse-midwives, is a safe, dignified option. These professionals bring equipment to the home and can provide oxygen, IV fluids and medications, and resuscitation if needed, heaven forbid.
yungerman1,
SupportSurvivors- “Out in 4 hours after delivery which was great”??? Hard to believe. Did you head straight to the pizza shop for lunch too?
I would suggest obtaining some knowledge about birth centers and childbirth before ridiculing and doubting people. She most likely went home to rest, where she could bond with her newborn in the peace and familiarity of home, rather than in a hospital, where the janitor wakes people up at 3am to take out the trash (happened to my wife).
My OB is not in favor of home births. He says that while yea in a perfect world and perfect situation everything can go 100% fine. But we know how many things could go wrong why take that chance? It IS a big risk no one can argue that.
Avram – The Halacha remains that it is Sakanos Nefashos
Logician – please share where it states that halacha in Shulchan Aruch, that home births are a sakana. Thanks
@yungerman – why do you find it hard to believe? They were non-hospital births and that was the protocol – and I *wanted* to go home. My pregnancies were all normal and low risk. There was no reason for me to go to a hospital and I was quite confident in the ability of my midwives. They have mechanisms in place if something unexpected happens, and I was comfortable with them.
When you get pregnant, you can choose your birth plan. Til then, stay out of mine.
… specifically that it is a sakana more than in a hospital. As Avrom pointed out, there are very safe at home. The halacha says it is a sakana anywhere, including in the hospital.
@Avram in MD – thank you!
If it’s how they did it in the alte heim, then it’s good enough for me.
Seriously, best of both worlds – labor at home with a doula who has a fetal heart monitor as long as possible. The risk of contracting infection(s) rise substantially once you set foot in the hospital, and the longer you’re there the more time they have to “do” things…
I felt compelled to reply due to the ignorance most people have about home births.
According to the world Health Organization Home births are safer than hospital births. In Holland over 40% of births take place at home.
Home births are only appropriate in low risk situations and should be attended by a certified highly experienced midwife and assistant.
Home births are safer because birth is allowed to progress in a natural way with very little, if any intervention.In hospitals they try to speed up the delivery for many reasons, such as they need the room for the next patient.
In a home environment the birthing mom is more at ease which contributes to a smoother process.
Safer for infant as baby is only exposed to germs that mom is immune to and not exposed to dangerous germs that only exist in hospitals.
Before considering a home birth make sure that it suits your situation, do research and plan it out down to the last detail.
Yes I did a home birth after several hospital births and I don’t regret it at all. I would definitely consider it next time around B”H. I was able to do whatever I pleased without having to advocate for myself every 5 minutes and wasting precious energy on that,and also delivered in water which is illegal in hospitals where I reside.
I also felt that I was able to tap into the spiritual side of child birth (daven) due to being in my own home and having lots of privacy. My neighbors had no idea what was taking place and only found out that we had a baby the next day.
My kids took it really well as I was very matter-of-fact about it with them before it. No specs. just that they should be prepared that a midwife will come when the baby is due to arrive.
One of the best parts was that I was able to be in my own bed to recuperate and no one disturbed me (nurses,roommates, cleaning personnel, visitors…)
I used to think home was great.
However, take into account that in The Netherlands, it is relatively quite common for women to give birth at home by choice. One of my sisters did it twice.
However, at the same time, it has recently been featured in the news that The Netherlands – which generally has excellent medical care, about the best in the world, I dare to say better than the US – has a relatively high infant mortality rate.
It is quite obvious that any sudden complications at home can quickly turn into a major disaster for both mother and child – both with the birth itself as well as with the infant who might suddenly turn out to have some sort of congenital disease or other issues and need urgent medical attention.
You don’t want to be alone with a single midwife who has to deal with both the mother AND the child then. The thought of having to call an ambulance, waiting for it to arrive, letting the ambulance crew do their work on-site as much as they can (in some countries they do “stay and play” – for example The Netherlands and Germany – and in others “scoop and run” – for example the US and Israel), then get to the hospital, get things running there…… by then, if you have a serious situation, it’s likely to be too late.
There is only so much anybody can do in the home environment, even an emergency physician and ambulance crew, without having the benefits of a fully equipped hospital environment.
And most importantly, there is only so much that can be done to identify possible complications before birth.
I myself would absolutely not want my wife to give birth at home, ever. I’m not willing to take that risk.
I obviously did not mean that. Avram said that it used to be a sakana, and now is quite safe. To which I replied that the Halacha stating tht it is a situation of Sakana remains in place, yes obviously for all situations, point being you have to do your best, not say “today its a safe enough procedure”.
So now we have studies quoted that its safer, and more dangerous, at home. Therefore, as usual, I don’t believe it ’til I see it. Sources for these studies, please.
I am sure everyone knows a story where the baby went into distress suddenly and only a c-section saved the baby. Yes there is a lot of interventions in the hospital but if you know what you want and discuss it with your dr you can do what you want unless it gets dangerous.
Just read the book by Dr Robert Mendelsohn, Confessions of a medical heredic, and you will never want to step into a hospital again.
Doctors in the hospital are C/SECTION trigger happy. Pays them better and is much more convienent for the doctors. And it is waaaay waaaay overused in hospitals.
I am very happy that I had a home birth , since I would have had a C-section in the hospital. My baby was breeched, and wouldnt come down since the cord was tied around him. BH , with some exercise, the cord was released and the baby was born breeched. Doctors do C-sections for their own convenience. And in the hospital, with all the monitors attached to you , something at some point will show, that there is something “wrong ” with the baby.
Having a baby at home is not a sakana, like the doctors want you to believe, just like not vaccinating isnt either a sakana. Big Pharma wants you to believe that from the moment you arrive on this earth ,to the moment you die, your life depends on them. Vitamin k shot ,the moment you are born, to the hep b vaccine? Yikes. Never knew babies are doing drugs and immoral acts that they need a Hep B vaccines. Just live the way Hashem wants you to live, and dont be fooled into the lies we are brainwashed to believe, that we need all this intervention in our lives in order to be able to survive. Good luck to all those who leave the cult of modern medicine, where there is a pill for every ill, and a vaccine for everything under the sun. Comming up next is the HIV/aids vaccine. Just wait until they convince you that your child will get AIDS,(of course ,its only the kids that need all these vaccines, they are the ones make everyone sick.)
And if you would have happened c”v to be the case where the opposite happened, who would be here telling that story ?
I agree with sushe you need a lot of zchusem to give birth at home – only a really holy person is allowed to rely on miracles!!
I know of ppl who gave birth at home the babies lacked oxygen at birth and are NOT healthy today.
Also, just as Hashem created women to give birth “naturally” Hashem gave doctors the knowledge to heal. It is our Hishtadlus to go to doctors and hospitals. Yes the mortality rate was a lot lot higher in the Alta heim!!
If your husband is having a heart attack, you wouldn’t call an ambulance? Because in the Alta Heim they didn’t call an ambulance!!
I personally had an experience with one of my children where with no prior warnings he was not breathing at birth. The baby was not in stress till I gave birth because it only happened right before I gave birth. Baruch Hashem I was in a hospital they got the baby breathing in seconds he spend a week in the nicu and is Baruch Hashem a healthy child.
Logician’s right (this time) of course. There was a good chance of something going wrong. You were lucky, B’h. Why would you advise others to try their luck? A quick search shows breech babies, delivered naturally, have much higher mortality rates.
Regarding Dr. Mendelsohn, he was a known quack. He died over 25 years ago. At the time his “eye opening book” was dismissed as pseudo science. 30 years later he’s still wrong.
Logician,
Avram – The Halacha remains that it is Sakanos Nefashos
I didn’t dispute the halacha in my response. I’m not even sure why we are bringing sakanos nefashos into this conversation, because childbirth is a sakanos nefashos whether the woman is in the hospital or at home. Therefore, if you object to my use of the term “safe” for home birth on the grounds of sakanos nefashos, then you must also object to calling a hospital birth safe.
I see the debate here as not about whether birth is a sakanos nefashos, which is a constant yes, but whether a planned home birth is preferable to a hospital birth.
2good2btrue,
I know of ppl who gave birth at home the babies lacked oxygen at birth and are NOT healthy today.
This is not the type of home birth I am referring to. In a birth center or home birth attended by certified nurse midwives, oxygen and IVs are readily available, and the nurse is trained in infant resuscitation.
Also, just as Hashem created women to give birth “naturally” Hashem gave doctors the knowledge to heal.
Absolutely.
It is our Hishtadlus to go to doctors and hospitals.
Absolutely, when there is a problem.
If your husband is having a heart attack, you wouldn’t call an ambulance?
For sure, but should we all live in the hospital because, heaven forbid, we might have a heart attack?
This is the most recent statement from the ACOG:
So it basically boils down to – Whom do you care more about – yourself or the baby?!?!?
Health, you’re a doctor and ACOG is the lobbying organization for OB/GYNs – no one expects that you or they are going to be supportive of women choosing anything but a hospital birth.
This “other finding” – of a tripling of the neonatal mortality rate – are we talking about something like the difference between 0.02% and 0.06% (six hundreds of ONE percent) in a meta-analysis? While that would certainly represent a tripling of the neonatal mortality rate, it’s statistically insignificant (not to mention intellectually dishonest).
An OBGYN is trained to perform surgery – they are not there for most of the labor anyway, and if they do show up and it’s taking “too long” (i.e. they are missing dinner, ball game, etc.), things “start happening” – continuous monitoring, induction with pitocin, which becomes “failure to progress” (or, failure to be patient), which becomes a c-section…
If a woman is properly and thoroughly educated, low-risk, with a back-up plan in place, no one needs to judge her decision to have a home birth.
I, as a former Hatzola grunt, have had the zchus to attend some, some from repeat customers. These were all unplanned obviously though the repeaters must have had a clue as to the likelyhood of
the deja vu. As an uninterested party I can only say that it can make a royal mess, not quite like a miss can, but still a mess.
I remember a woman I went to school with who told me about the birth of her youngest child. She had had several children prior. She never had any complications with any pregnancy or childbirth. The pregnancy with the youngest was also quite uneventful. She was as low-risk as a person could be.
There was a complication at birth. I don’t remember what the complication was, however, had she not been in a hospital she wouldn’t have made it there in time. Both she and the baby would have died.
Better to be safe than sorry.
I am in nursing school, and as part of my obstetrics clinical rotation, we visited a birth center. We also watched videos about home birth.
Birth centers are required to be within a certain amount of miles from a hospital. If there is an emergency, mother and child can be ambulanced to the hospital. The birth center that I visited, had a hospital about 10 minutes away. The atmosphere is very homelike. All the equipment is stored away until it is ready to be used. They have an isollete, a crash cart, and closets with supplies for IVs, and such. They do not have fetal monitoring. The good thing about birth centers are that they are very flexible and provide many options.
The care providors in birth centers are generally Certified Nurse Midwives (CNMs), advanced practice nurses with masters degrees who provide general OB/GYN services. CNMs are licensed to deal with low risk births only!!!!
Home births, in my opinion, are nice, but not safe.
Avram in MD-I have several of my own children and am quite familiar with childbirth.
I’ve never heard of a great delivery. Deliveries are extremely painful even with an epidural- which a midwife cannot administer. You can freely leave the hospital 4 hours after delivery to go home and rest- that is if your newborn isn’t fussy. In the hospital you can tell the nurse to feed the baby formula at night and let you sleep. The story with your wife is an exception not the norm.
SupportSurvivors- “They have mechanisms in place if something unexpected happens, and I was comfortable with them.” Do you know what the mechanism is- DIAL 911. If c”v the mother starts hemorrhaging or the baby lacks oxygen what exactly are they going to do?
“When you get pregnant, you can choose your birth plan. Til then, stay out of mine.” I am not telling you what to do. We are all trying to give the OP some advice.
And to both of you- Please respond to Health’s post- he make a very important point.
“I am very happy that I had a home birth , since I would have had a C-section in the hospital. My baby was breeched, and wouldnt come down since the cord was tied around him. BH , with some exercise, the cord was released and the baby was born breeched. Doctors do C-sections for their own convenience. And in the hospital, with all the monitors attached to you , something at some point will show, that there is something “wrong ” with the baby.”
So you gambled with your child’s life and it worked out. Mazal tov!
“Having a baby at home is not a sakana, like the doctors want you to believe, just like not vaccinating isnt either a sakana. Big Pharma wants you to believe that from the moment you arrive on this earth ,to the moment you die, your life depends on them. Vitamin k shot ,the moment you are born, to the hep b vaccine? Yikes. Never knew babies are doing drugs and immoral acts that they need a Hep B vaccines.”
Sorry, I don’t know what to say, honestly I don’t.
“Just live the way Hashem wants you to live, and dont be fooled into the lies we are brainwashed to believe, that we need all this intervention in our lives in order to be able to survive.”
So I guess you don’t wear seatbelts either, right?
“Good luck to all those who leave the cult of modern medicine, where there is a pill for every ill, and a vaccine for everything under the sun. Comming up next is the HIV/aids vaccine. Just wait until they convince you that your child will get AIDS,(of course ,its only the kids that need all these vaccines, they are the ones make everyone sick.)”
I hate to say this, but I think your opinions are extremely dangerous. You follow the “anti-medicine” movement with as much zeal as others follow the “anti-New World Order” movement or the “anti-Zionist conspiracy” movement. Or those who believe the Mossad killed Yigal Amir, or the Secret Service killed JFK. Don’t you realize you are completely brainwashed by the ANTI-medicine movement?
I can definitely agree with the statement that in the US, the decision for surgical intervention during birth is made very quickly and easily. I read about that.
But your statements about vaccinations and boasting that B”H your child made it out alive are sickening. Could you please clarify what had happened if they had NOT been able to ‘release the cord’?
I just wanted to comment about the Hep B vaccine and “immoral acts” requiring vaccination at such an early age.
They have nothing to do with each other. The point is that these vaccines are a necessity for anyone who works in the healthcare field. You have no way to know what your child will want to do with his/her life in the future and these vaccines have to be given at a certain schedule. Since they have no side effects, it is the easiest course to simply vaccinate the child at the earliest opportunity to fit the series of 3 vaccines into the remainder of the vaccine schedule recommended by the APA. Since Hep B has no cure, you won’t have to worry that your child will ch”v come in contact with contaminated blood and be infected at some later point in his/her life.
The HIV/AIDS vaccine would be given alone the same reasoning when it exists.
wanderingchana -“Health, you’re a doctor and ACOG is the lobbying organization for OB/GYNs – no one expects that you or they are going to be supportive of women choosing anything but a hospital birth.”
The fact that I’m in the medical field has nothing to do with my opinion. I’ve never worked in OB/Gyn besides being trained in it.
You’re much more Nogieah – being that you obviously prefer to have your kids at a birthing center or something similar.
“This “other finding” – of a tripling of the neonatal mortality rate – are we talking about something like the difference between 0.02% and 0.06% (six hundreds of ONE percent) in a meta-analysis? While that would certainly represent a tripling of the neonatal mortality rate, it’s statistically insignificant (not to mention intellectually dishonest).”
The only one who’s being intellectually dishonest is you. The mortality rate in this country is about 7 kids out of every thousand. So let’s say ONLY 1 out of this thousand is due to home birth. How in the world is this not significant? Let’s say you convince 1,000 Frum women to deliver at home -at least one of those kids will Not make it due to being delivered at home. And you call this Insignificant?!?!?!
“An OBGYN is trained to perform surgery”
They are trained in all aspects of Women’s health, not just Surgery!
“- they are not there for most of the labor anyway, and if they do show up and it’s taking “too long” (i.e. they are missing dinner, ball game, etc.),”
Some do and some Don’t!
“things “start happening” – continuous monitoring, induction with pitocin, which becomes “failure to progress” (or, failure to be patient), which becomes a c-section…”
These arguments can only be used against doctors, but since when aren’t you allowed to have a Midwife in charge of your care in the hospital?!?!?
“If a woman is properly and thoroughly educated, low-risk, with a back-up plan in place, no one needs to judge her decision to have a home birth.”
Yes, her decision should be judged because she’s putting herself before the life of her child! This is No small matter!
yungerman1,
I’ve never heard of a great delivery. Deliveries are extremely painful even with an epidural- which a midwife cannot administer.
Not all labors and deliveries are painful.
And to both of you- Please respond to Health’s post- he make a very important point.
I have no interest in responding to Health. What I will say to you is this: the snippets of what sounds like a news article he quoted made no mention of the maternal mortality rate in U.S. hospitals, which is significantly higher when interventions are utilized, and higher in comparison to other developed nations that promote home births for healthy pregnancies. While he framed his argument as pitting a mother’s convenience and comfort vs. infant’s life, if anything it really is a question of mother’s life and infants life. Whose blood is redder?
By the way, the ACOG probably lumps all “planned home births” together, including those who have little to no screening or monitoring, which I have certainly never advocated. And I wonder what definitions the ACOG used to attribute an infant’s death to the birth itself.
I dont really know the facts, I admit that.
however my opinion is, Home births are irresponsible. birth is a natural accurance, it is well known that there are a lot of complications that can occur.
Birthing centers, are OK only IF the patient has been fully screened and monitored, and ONLY if they have personnal at ALL times that are able to attend to emergencies that can (and do) occur during chold birth.
Hospitals might not be as comfortable as an hotel, however they are able to handle potential emergencies. They do this on a daily basis.
I think that this is extremly logical (using my prehospital medical degree as a knowledge base).
Avram in MD -“I have no interest in responding to Health.”
Of course not – the truth hurts.
“What I will say to you is this: the snippets of what sounds like a news article he quoted made no mention of the maternal mortality rate in U.S. hospitals, which is significantly higher when interventions are utilized, and higher in comparison to other developed nations that promote home births for healthy pregnancies.”
Prove it.
“While he framed his argument as pitting a mother’s convenience and comfort vs. infant’s life, if anything it really is a question of mother’s life and infants life. Whose blood is redder?”
Even if your statement that hospitals increase the mortality rate of the mother is true, your conclusion is totally false.
There is such a low mortality rate for the mother it no where comes near the mortality rate for infants. So do you care about the baby or just a remote possibility that the mother might be better off in a home setting? To me the answer is obvious!
“By the way, the ACOG probably lumps all “planned home births” together, including those who have little to no screening or monitoring, which I have certainly never advocated. And I wonder what definitions the ACOG used to attribute an infant’s death to the birth itself.”
Yea, all the home birth websites bring down this “so-called” argument. This is why I postulated that the home birth would only cause one out of a thousand deaths, instead of saying 14 or 21 deaths (2 -3 times the infant mortality rate), – to make up for all the other reasons that you could excuse because of whatever. Still, one out of a thousand is significant to me!
Avram in MD- Again, giving birth is sakonos nefashos- which is why you are allowed to be mechalel shabbos to drive to the hospital.
“In a birth center or home birth attended by certified nurse midwives, oxygen and IVs are readily available, and the nurse is trained in infant resuscitation”
Do you really want to rely on one or two midwives for infant resuscitation? What if medication is needed? Who will treat the mother in the mean time?
“if you object to my use of the term “safe” for home birth on the grounds of sakanos nefashos, then you must also object to calling a hospital birth safe.”
In case of sakanos nefashos you go to a hospital- not to your local midwife.
“I see the debate here as not about whether birth is a sakanos nefashos, which is a constant yes, but whether a planned home birth is preferable to a hospital birth. “
Lets define “preferable”. To the comfort of the mother- maybe for some, and only if they dont want any pain relief medication.
For the infant- doubtful. Midwives in your home do not have the equipment to adequately treat a newborn if something goes wrong. IV?? Not to helpful if the infant needs medication.
So a women who decides on a home birth, is most definitely increasing the risk to herself, and exponentially so to the infant.
Why would you want to do that?
Has anyone ever asked their LOR about a home birth???
Has anyone asked their LOR about a hospital birth?
The torah says V’nishmartem meod lenafshoseichem. No where does the torah tell us to take our comfort into consideration when you are dealing with sakanos nefashos.
This whole home birth movement is so ridiculous its unbelievable.
Yes. Maternal mortality rates at the hospital are going to be higher than at home because: 1: High risk patients usually don’t opt for planned home birth. 2: Many more people give birth at the hospital so naturally you’d have all types of circumstances and happenings going on in the hospital. and 3: People are not prescreened to find out if they are a candidate for a hospital birth.
If you’re going to quote statistics at least quote the one’s that actually prove something.
Here is a comment from Dr M. Chalk of Gateshead z”l from a letter sent to the British Medical Journal;
“For myself, I feel that absolute safety is non-existent.
And to have given the mother peace of mind and happiness (of a home birth) is a very great thing.”
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