Homoepathic & Naturapathic Medicine

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  • #602470
    postal
    Member

    Is anyone familiar with the effectiveness of Homeopathic and Naturopathic Medicine? The doctors practicing this end their titles as “N.D.”, which I understand indicates Natural Doctor. They utilize natural remedies (herbs, vitamins), rather than medically invasive procedures.

    #860939
    dd
    Member

    The effectiveness is generally zero. Nada. Efess. Useless. The “science” behind homeopothy is complete garbage.

    There have been many careful studies showing that the effects of homeopathy are similar to that of a placebo. Of course, proponents of homeopathy always find fault in the studies.

    It’s possible that certain alternative therapies have some value, but that value has not been proven yet. If the value of any alternative therapy is ever proven, it will then simply be called “Medicine” (and not “Alternative/Homeopathic/Naturopathic/etc Medicine”).

    #860940
    postal
    Member

    Does anyone else agree or disagree with “dd”?

    #860941
    akuperma
    Participant

    Most of been thoroughly studied and found to be ineffective at best, and harmful at worst. Those that were found effective, are introduced into mainstream medicine (meaning regular companies find safe and cheap ways to produce them, patent the process, and charge accordingly).

    If you don’t want invasive procedures, just say so. If you have a private physician (as opposed to some place such as the army or a prison), they need your permission. They might say, “you know you might die if I don’t check for cancer or the like”, and you reply that you have great faith in Ha-Shem, and great feat of getting things stuck into you.

    #860942
    gabie
    Member

    Is it an alternative medicine?

    #860943
    longarekel
    Member

    dd: it is my experience that ‘regular’ medical doctors are always the ones bashing alternative medicine. They think that they know everything there is to know about medicine. It is simply arrogance and ignorance typically found among the scientific community who think they know it all. Alternative medicine has its merits and I think it is becoming more and more widespread. There is a concerted effort among ‘regular’ medical practitioners to stifle the growth of natural medicine, for obvious reasons. A good natural practitioner might be just what many people need.

    #860944
    Health
    Participant

    longarekel -“dd: it is my experience that ‘regular’ medical doctors are always the ones bashing alternative medicine.”

    This is where you discredit yourself.

    “They think that they know everything there is to know about medicine. It is simply arrogance and ignorance typically found among the scientific community who think they know it all.”

    And this is where -Kol Haposel B’momo Poisel!

    “Alternative medicine has its merits and I think it is becoming more and more widespread.”

    This I agree with, sometimes.

    “There is a concerted effort among ‘regular’ medical practitioners to stifle the growth of natural medicine, for obvious reasons.”

    This is another obvious lie.

    I’m trained in regular medicine and I’m not against alternative medicine, some of the time.

    People trained in medicine 20 -30 years ago were told back then not to believe in any alternative medicine, but this isn’t the case nowadays.

    But what I’ve found is that people who only believe in alternative medicine (Health-nuts) are against regular medicine, no matter what. They will only use alternative medicine -sometimes endangering themselves or their family. And then when nothing they try works they come rushing to the hospital.

    Sometimes they come too late and then they say -“You see regular medicine doesn’t work -it couldn’t save my family member!”

    #860945
    longarekel
    Member

    Health: Thank you. Since you are trained in regular medicine, you have proven my point.

    #860946
    Health
    Participant

    longarekel -“Health: Thank you. Since you are trained in regular medicine, you have proven my point.”

    And which point is that? How about reading the post before you reply?

    And thank you for proving my point of -Kol Haposel B’momo Poisel!

    #860947
    longarekel
    Member

    Health: I am not in regular medicine or part of the greater scientific community, so I can’t be bemumo posel. My point was that those who are, will often point out the superiority of conventional medicine, and not take kindly to those who promote alternative methods. You have helped prove that point.

    #860948
    HaQer
    Member

    True, many doctors are baalei gaava who don’t believe in Hashem, Tov shebirofim l’gehenom, yet doctors were given permission to heal and we have a chiyuv hishtadlus to use them.

    As for alternative medicine, here are 3 psukim to think about:

    M’chasheifa lo sichayeh.

    Tamim tihyeh im Hashem elokecha.

    Ushmartem m’od linafshoseichem.

    #860949
    longarekel
    Member

    I have thought about those pesukim. There are plenty of alternative methods that have nothing to do with that.

    #860950
    Health
    Participant

    longarekel -“Health: I am not in regular medicine or part of the greater scientific community, so I can’t be bemumo posel.”

    Sure you can; anybody can be arrogant & ignorant!

    “My point was that those who are, will often point out the superiority of conventional medicine, and not take kindly to those who promote alternative methods. You have helped prove that point.”

    Yes, conventional medicine is superior and I don’t take kindly to those who only promote alternative medicine.

    But that wasn’t your point above I’ll quote it:

    “There is a concerted effort among ‘regular’ medical practitioners to stifle the growth of natural medicine, for obvious reasons.”

    This point you never proved and as matter of fact -I hold of some alternative medicine.

    Your posts are typical of most Health-Nuts – lots of double talk -no facts. Why is it that you Health-nuts can only follow alternative medicine and not conventional medicine? Why is it that you hate regular medicine & those that practice it?

    #860951

    I asked this question before, but have not gotten an answer. Any Poster that went to Medical School how many Course hours in Diet and Nutrition did you study? The father of Medicine said “Let Food Be Your Medicine”, and the Converse as well “Let Medicine Be Your Food”. The Rambam used to help heal (with Hashems help) patients by grinding up Roots and Herbs that grew in his vicinity. I do not want to bash the Conventional Medical Community, as I feel this is not representative of Natural health. My point being if one personally has studied how to heal by reading Books, Attending Lectures etc. on how to heal Naturally through Diet and Nutrition as well as Alternative Treatments this good. Not doing so may be limiting the final outcome of the Doctor Patient Visit and Treatment.

    #860952
    BTGuy
    Participant

    Like most things, there is no cut and dry answer.

    Health gave a fair, conservative assessment of the comparison.

    In addition, to a good degree, the camp of traditional medicine is responsible for the bashing of chiropractic and acupuncture modes of health care.

    To be fair, traditional medicine also has been the recipient of bashing; for good and ill.

    All schools of thought in health care have their good and bad statistics, supporters and opponents; along with public relations and quality of care issues.

    If someone is seeking an alternative from traditional medicine, they should do some research and select a practitioner licensed in that field.

    Good health care begins with a healthy diet, exercise, and rest. Sometimes, going back to basics helps the body take care of many issues.

    #860953
    dd
    Member

    To reiterate the point, alternative medicine – and especially homeopathy – is useless.

    This is not to defend the medical system. Many doctors are arrogant, some are ignorant, and some are corrupt. There is a long list of things that are wrong with the medical system. But fake medicine (i.e. alternative medicine) will not help that.

    Nutrition is important, but there is a great deal that is not known about nutrition – and often doctors don’t know enough about nutrition. Again, that doesn’t mean that fake sciences such as homeopathy will help.

    Some people just waste their time and money by pursuing alternative medicine. Worse, some people forego scientifically-based real medicine with tragic consequences. Anyone who encourages others to avoid real medicine in favor of alternative medicine is a potential rotzeach will have to give din v’cheshban.

    I am not a physician, nor do I have any personal stake in this – except that kol yisrael areivim zeh l’zeh.

    #860954
    Health
    Participant

    yankdownunder -“I asked this question before, but have not gotten an answer. Any Poster that went to Medical School how many Course hours in Diet and Nutrition did you study?”

    Your question makes zero sense. A regular doctor should now study the same as Naturopaths? They aren’t becoming Naturopaths. A lot of medical books are now including chapters on Alternative medicine, but the students aren’t tested on these. They are there for those who want to know more. Just like most of medicine -you have to learn on your own.

    And btw, conventional medicine has people who study diet & nutrition, just they don’t become medical doctors – they become nutritionists (RD’s).

    #860955
    akuperma
    Participant

    Nutrition has always been a part of conventional medicine, and “establishment” health care providers are trained in nutrition. However it appears that most doctors are cynical of patients willingness to consider it. Rather than tell a patient with Type-2 diabetes to undergo serious changes in diet and to get substantial amounts of exercise (since most patients would have done that already if they were so inclined), doctors prescribe medicines. If you tell your doctor you are nervous about drugs or surgeries and want to try changes in lifestyle, the doctor only needs to be convinced you are serious. By analogy, if a Ben Torah asks a shailoh of a Gadol,he’s quite likely to get, as an answer, a reference to the gemara or the Shulhan Arukh, since a Ben Torah really likes to know the real source of the answer to his problem. If a Baal ha-Bayis asks the question, he’ll get a “yes-no” answer since the Rav thinks him incapable of doing more. IF a doctor thinks you incapable of lifestyle changes, he’ll prescribe what he thinks you are capable of (having things done to you).

    All medicines are natural. Antibiotics started out as moldy bread. Apsirin is from tree bark. What “Big Pharm” does it find a way of making it more cheaply. What many alternate medicine people do is advocate drugs that have already been tested and been found wanting.

    #860956
    nitpicker
    Participant

    Homeopathy is nonsense.

    what ever studies were done were a waste of time.

    There is no point in studying something for which there isn’t even any theory or experience or folklore or anything else to back it up.

    it is totally made up, is ridiculous in about 4 ways, and it is amazing that anyone not making money off of it, still touts it.

    #860957
    gabie
    Member

    Can someone please explain what homeopathy is?

    #860958
    BTGuy
    Participant

    Hi longakerel.

    Welcome to the club of recipients of vitriol. Just ignore comments of the like and pray the offenders work on their middos.

    Everyone, at one time or another, has been, or is, a health care consumer, so your views are very important.

    Additonally, if “traditional” medicine were the end all, there would not be people seeking other modes of health care, all of which can work, and some of which work better than traditional medicine.

    A peronal story: I was once working out and made a movement where I could not move my neck to the left. I went to the Emergency Room and the doc gave me vicodins and something else for muscle relaxer. He said if it it not better in a few weeks, come back and he will Xray..etc.

    I walked out with my head to the left and a prescription. lol. Seriously. I thought, “This is not going to do.” I tried for the first time, a chiropractor.

    When I asked the emergency room doctor about a chiropractor, he literally snickered and did not answer.

    Long story short (although its too late for that), the chiro ran some electric stuff on my neck and gently manipulated it back into position. I-walked-out-with-full-movement AND my stuffy nose was unclogged. Yep! He said proper alignment helps with allergies in many cases in that everything flows properly. Baruch Hashem!!

    Also, as you know, for sleeping problems, it is better to go with natural products than ‘scripts. For MANY things, natural is a better response than medical/prescription.

    On a final note: People with medical concerns are the best, unbiased judges of what works.

    #860959
    nitpicker
    Participant

    Why do you need to know what homeopathy is?

    but since you ask:

    Homeopathy is the idea that “LIKE CURES LIKE”.

    Meaning that if a substance causes a particular symptom, then that same substance in very small diluted amounts will cure a disease that causes the same symptom. Never mind what condition or disease caused the original symptom.

    Never mind that the fact that this this substance causes the same symptom is based on only one person having blamed the substance for it. Never mind that the the dilutions used bring the solution to zero so that the “medicine”

    is all solvent with no solute. Never mind that they claim that the water used has some sort of memory for the drug it was once introduced to but which it no longer contains. Never mind that the whole idea is based on nothing but somebody woke up one morning and invented the theory. Never mind that the idea that LIKE CURES LIKE is too general to be of any use, and so on.

    #860960
    nitpicker
    Participant

    in response to btguy

    i am convinced that

    a)chiropractors sometimes help people where doctors have failed to.

    b) chiropractic itself however is not a valid idea.

    c) I disagree with your statement that

    “People with medical concerns are the best, unbiased judges of what works. “. I disagree with both parts: they are not unbiased and even if they were, they are not necessarily the best or even good judges.

    my last comment in this thread.

    #860961
    more
    Member

    postal

    Member

    “Does anyone else agree or disagree with “dd”? “

    Posted 21 hours ago #

    MFostal- dd’s explanation wasn’t good enough? why is that?

    #860962
    big deal
    Participant

    I think that there is room in medicine for both practices. I don’t see why it has to be one over the other.

    While I mainly use conventional doctors, there were instances when I was at the end of the rope with a couple of issues and had them resolved with one visit to the chiropractor.

    I would never use a chiropractor to heal a strept throat but if my last resort to heal my child’s ears would be to insert tubes, I would definitely try a chiropractor first. One of them aligned and taught me how to drain my child’s ear… I never knew of another ear infection again.

    I just can’t stand the way people fork over tons of money month after month to chiropractors just because they’re big believers.

    In other words use your brains. If something makes sense do it. It’s got nothing to do with belief or emotions.

    #860963
    hershi
    Member

    How much would it cost to use this alternative medicine?

    #860964
    The Best Bubby
    Participant

    I certainly do believe in Homeopathic medicines.

    Once i had a bad ear infection and was on antibiotics for weeks on end, literally. While using the antibiotics, my stomach was starting to hurt me etc. After this, when my ear or throat hurts or glands, or a cold starts to come on, coughing etc, I take PROPOLIS EXTRACT 30, which comes from bees, and take 8 drops 3X a day, for one day, and it is gone, no pain, no hassle, and no conventional antibiotics, which one can build up a resistance to. I literally, don’t go anywhere, when I travel without it. It is worth every single penny.

    I have recommended this to so many people, including a neighbor’s 90 year old mother K’H, bli ayin harah, when she had terrible congestion two months ago. I gave her this Propolis Extract 30, also Sambucol Forte ( made with elderberries, which has a very high concentrated dosage of Vitamin C), chelated zinc, and she took 2 doses, and she was completely healed and better by the next day literally. Her own son, who is a medical doctor came to visit his mom literally the next day and he called me to thank me for coming in to give his mom the homeopathic medicines, which he believes in.

    For anyone who would like to have information about Propolis Extract 30 – this wonder drug from bees, here is the info. And, no, I don’t have shares in the company! www. comvita.com or [email protected] The phone is NZ 0800 504 959,

    Taiwan 0800 300 886, Japan 045 905 5125, Hong Kong 2579 1228, Australia 1800 466 392 or write to: Comvita New Zealand Ltd, Wilson Road South, Bay of Plenty 3071 New Zealand.

    Hope this helps!

    #860965
    BTGuy
    Participant

    Hi Health.

    It is very misleading to make a statement that all medicines are natural. And it is exploitive to bend the term in this context just to prove a point.

    In law, they select a desired conclusion and then bend the story to fit. In science, the facts should determine what the conclusion is.

    In the sense that everything in the universe is natural, you are correct. In fact, even feces is natural, but it is poison. Uranium is natural.

    A valid definition and understanding of the word “natural” would render prescription drugs as unnatural, especially in comparison to the holistic, organic, and non-genetically modified substances used in alternative/complementary health care, as well as other modes of “alternative” care.

    The primary reason is, whether there is tree bark or whatever in the substance, the molecules of those ingredients are altered, modified, synthesized to where they can be considered anything but “natural”, and the manufacturers even admit such by claiming the benefits outweigh the risks.

    And it is by that broader understanding, that there is a valid claim to be made that scripts are not natural.

    #860966
    BTGuy
    Participant

    Hi nitpicker.

    You are such a nitpicker. lol

    Chiropractic is NOT a valid idea yet chiropractors have helped where MD’s have not? Alrighty then…

    More reasonable a statement would be chiropractors have helped where MD’s have not, therefore chiropractic IS valid, or, in the least, has some validity.

    #860967
    nitpicker
    Participant

    to btguy

    sorry but no.

    just because someone is a chiropractor does not mean that everything he does is practicing chiropractic.

    very often it is not. (chiropractors, unlike doctors, seem to have carte blanche to do anything they want).

    Sometimes it is some other type of nonsense

    sometimes it is something good. and sometimes even nonsense works in a particular case!

    chiropractic itself is an invalid idea.

    Oh wait! I forgot I wrote earlier that it was my last comment!

    well having written this, I may as well post it, but now I really am done for this thread.

    #860968
    soliek
    Member

    BTGuy: Exploitative*

    #860969
    2qwerty
    Participant

    Anyone who promotes one and bashes the other shouldn’t be relied on.

    #860970
    BTGuy
    Participant

    Hi nitpicker.

    I accept your apology, but cannot accept your totally incorrect assumptions based on what amounts to jibberish.

    It seems like your attitude is shaping what you say so much, that you dont make any sense.

    So when a chiropractor does help someone, what is he practicing if not chiropractic?

    I know from my own, previously shared story, you are 110% wrong, if you dont mind me saying.

    And what is the other type of nonsense they practice, that you speak of, that is not chirpractic? So, the non-chiropractic “nonsense” helps, but the chiropractic stuff does not help?

    You could not be more wrong. The idea of proper alignment of the spine to maximize healthy function of the central nervous system, is scientific fact.

    You dont have to post again. Wrong is wrong the second and third time, too.

    #860971
    dd
    Member

    This conversation has swung between homeopathy and chiropractic. It’s probably worth making a distinction between them.

    There is some evidence that chiropractic can help with certain types of back pain. Beyond that, there is little evidence of any benefit. Certain manipulations near the neck are dangerous – people have died from them. NEVER let a chiropractor do a neck adjustment!

    Homeopathy is nonsense. Withcraft. Voodoo. Beyond a placebo effect, homeopathy does absolutely nothing.

    The best people to determine what works are scientist and researchers who understand the underlying science and undertake well-designed studies to measure the effectiveness of a treatment.

    #860972
    Health
    Participant

    BTGuy -“Hi Health.

    It is very misleading to make a statement that all medicines are natural. And it is exploitive to bend the term in this context just to prove a point.”

    Mr. BT – Wrong guy. Next time you read a post -look at who wrote it.

    Since you were Choshet B’keshayrim -you can give me a Brocha now.

    #860973
    BTGuy
    Participant

    Hi Health.

    LOL…you are correct!! Finally! (just kidding)

    I apologize, and I owe you a bracha.

    May you continue to grow even bigger as a talmud chacham, and may you and those close to you have a healthy, happy, and long life of 120, and may you continue to do well and grow in your profession. And may you have more patience with the rest of us. ; )

    #860974
    longarekel
    Member

    I second BT’s Bracha. Especially the last line.

    #860975
    avhaben
    Participant

    Anyone know if there are benefits to this super-expensive (multi-thousands $) water filter? Brand name might be Kangen. It is a stand-alone unit that converts tap water for drinking. Supposedly removes pesticides, herbicides, chemicals from tap water. 2.5 pH.

    #860976
    Health
    Participant

    BTGuy -“May you continue to grow even bigger as a talmud chacham, and may you and those close to you have a healthy, happy, and long life of 120, and may you continue to do well and grow in your profession.”

    Thanks.

    “And may you have more patience with the rest of us.”

    longarekel -“I second BT’s Bracha. Especially the last line.”

    The only “patience” I want to have is this one -“patients”! 🙂

    #860977
    BTGuy
    Participant

    Hi Health.

    You are very welcome.

    I like the peacefulness between us.

    Have a great Shabbos Health and longarekel, and everyone else!

    #860978
    BTGuy
    Participant

    Alternative medical facts, as shown in a recent Yahoo! article.

    I will be brief and state the issue and it’s problem, and then list the alternative.

    1. pain – acetaminophen can cause liver damage.

    alternative – lower back pain responded better with chiropractic treatments ~ Archives of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation.

    2. statins – has negative effect on the liver.

    alternatives – oats, garlic, olive oil, red wine lower bad cholesterol and raise good cholesterol naturally, according to Harvard School of Public Health.

    **eating two squares of dark chocolate three to four times a week may be twenty-five times as effective to prevent heart issues as opposed to statins, according to a Dr. Teitlebaum

    3. blood pressure – while initially may require prescription drugs, it is recommended to wean people off those drugs with potassium and Coenzyme Q10 in various forms of therapy.

    There are others, but overall the idea can be summed up with the quote from the physician responsible for these, and other statements.

    Hopefully, no one should need these things, but it’s good to know more medical doctors are realizing the dangers of prescriptions and their use when natural may be available and effective.

    #860979
    Health
    Participant

    BTGuy -While some of these alternative therapies are effective -noone who practices medicine can tell the pts. to do them.

    I alluded to this in another topic. The practice of medicine is basically guided by our laws. We have sent people into Gov. office that have written “Sue-happy” laws. If a Practioner would tell s/o diagnosed with a disease to do an alternative therapy, he/she is opening themselves up to be destroyed. They can’t because these alternative therapies aren’t considered Standard of Care!

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