hoshanos ineptness

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    It seems so simple. Everyone carries their Lulav and esrog and circle the bimah. And yet, the reality shows how unsimple it is. Small number of people but a non-moving circle. Many people and even less moving (even though if everyone just closed the gap it would start moving again.)

    The answer lies in the people who take matters into their own hands and if they calculate that ch”v they’ll reach their seat before finishing, they stop moving and make everyone else stop moving, too. Well that’s what the four species are about, no? All types of Jews in one bundle.


    Participant: I’ll have to admit I read your post several times and still have no clue as to what the inner meaning of your profound thought might convey about squaring the circle of life.
    A gutten moed.


    I think his point is that different speeds for different people. Some push their way past without regard for my holy kavonos and others impede my movement without regard for my exact measurement of making exactly one hakofa during the recitation of the Hoshanas.


    I would like to know what adult beverage you drank during the first days, I would like to try it the second days


    Its unlikely that there are any nefarious cheshbonos behind hoshanos traffic
    Side note, its not the bima that we are circling as a zecher to the mizbeach, the rishonim say that we circle a person holding a sefer torah because a yid holding a sefer torah is domeh to a mizbeach

    Reb Eliezer

    Where does it say that holding a sefer torah is like a mizbeach?


    Bimah and Mizbeach have the same gematria (57)


    In my observations, it is usually one or two people who find it difficult to move and read at the same time. All it takes is one person to stop the whole circle from moving.


    There is a considerable body of academic research as to how to most effectively integrate individuals moving at different speeds by providing “acceleration” and “deceleration” lanes, metering entry into the moving traffic etc. No reason we couldn’t adopt the same concepts into hakofos with perhaps a slow lane for the older members of the shul moving clockwise around the bimah/guy holding the sefer torah and counterclockwise for the more nimble daveners moving at a higher RPM. There could also be a rest area where truly ehrliche yidden can daven with real kavanah while standing still. Obviously, the biggest tzadikim (aka the guys with the loudest “UUMeeeins” who back into you when they complete their shmoneh esreh) may require a special hakofos area


    Agree completely with this post

    Pushing and Hoshanos

    And it seems to be getting worse.

    In my shul they keep trying the same failed solution with bigger and pibbigger circles, as if that would help all


    Also, perhaps a subject for a separate thread, are the armed “assassins” flailing around with their lulavim while circling the bimah and poking the poor shlep nearby in the eye. This is not a joke and I’ve seen it happen several times over the years. When you a doing hakofos, the lulav should always be held in a 100 percent vertical, upright position. NO WAVING DURING HAKOFOS.


    No lulavim on shabbas, so no circling on shabbas. Therefore, no need to put the Torah in the center on Shabbas. Since no walking, and holding no lulavim, people can hold siddurim so no RECITING RESPONSIVELY on shabbas.


    As ahdus seems to be a theme of Sukkos, poking and shoving other congregants looks counter-productive. Is it the same in Israel, (areas where people serve) – one would think that people trained in holding their weapons safely should be able to deal with lulavim.

    Maybe it is the idea – walking around with lulavim forces us to confront a need to be careful and not to poke others?

    covid caveat: you can use a four amot long lulav to protect your private space.

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