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There are a number of threads which lead me to believe that people say “Mirror, mirror on the wall. Who is the frummest of them all?”. Of course, the men do not look at it but address it as Mrs. Mirror with their eyes on the ground (BTW, someone I know tried that on a Brooklyn street and saw a word he did not want to see). What about chumrot regarding honesty in monetary matters?
Is this thread a good example of chumros in bein odom l’chaveiro?
Like, this is definitely not intended to put anyone down right?
Such people tend to be very modest so you don’t hear about it.
Generally speaking, the same people who are machmir on bein adam l’makom are also machmir on bein adam l’chaveiro, while the same people who are meikel on bein adam l’makom are also meikel on bein adam l’chaveiro. Of course there are exceptions to every rule.
There is no excuse to be more lenient on bein adam l’makom than permissible or than on bein adam l’chaveiro.
What about chumrot regarding honesty in monetary matters?
A Galach is Erlich. A Yid is Frum, and shows it to everyone else.
(or was it the opposite?)
Joe -“Generally speaking, the same people who are machmir on bein adam l’makom are also machmir on bein adam l’chaveiro”
Not, that I’ve seen! I’ve seen Machmirim who are Oiver Bein L’chavairo all the time!
1. I did not mention anyone in particular and anyway we are all anonymous here.
Don’t be ridiculous. You started a thread to bash chareidim by insinuating that they only care about looking frum.
Avi: Many of the frum Jews in prison don’t belong there. Convictions aren’t necessarily demonstration of actual guilt. (Additionally, actual guilt of a secular crime isn’t always a halachic violation. i.e. if someone is convicted of refusing to testify against someone else.) Innocents are convicted routinely in the non-Jewish system (and guilty parties are routines acquitted.) And of those that do deserve to be there, many are meikel on both bein adam l’makom and bein adam l’chaveiro.
But, as I said, there are exceptions to every rule.
Seriously though, I agree with akuperma here. You only see the few bad apples, but not the hundreds of thousands that understand the difference between Yiras Shomayim and Chossid Shote.
What about chumrot regarding honesty in monetary matters?
What about them?
“What about chumrot regarding honesty in monetary matters?”
welcome to the corrupt & dishonest generation we are living in & to be honest im ashamed as a frum yid that my brothers have reached so low R”L
Ever heard of the famous line “living in America is living in Sodom”?
today america has become Sodom R”L
may everyone become %100 honest so all sadness can end soon
SADLY THIS HAPPENS VERY OFTEN TODAY.
may we all do teshuva soon & return to hashem with honesty
any questions please reply.
It is mesira.
Well, one chumra in bein adam l’chaveiro would be to not start a thread designed to malign a group of Yidden and hide behind “tochacha” when there’s zero chance of it being productive.
Anyone who testifies against another jew in a non-jewish court and sends another jew to prison has a din of a moser and is chayiv misa.
Anyone who testifies against another jew in a non-jewish court and sends another jew to prison has a din of a moser and is chayiv misa.
So if you saw someone abuse a child and testified against the abuser in court, you are chayiv misa according to this “Sheeta”
Popa I think you misread. It was about individuals who worry about looks of themselves and others without regard to behavior. You think that describes chareidim? I don’t. But it does describe many people and, as he said, there are plenty of posts on other threads supporting it. The leap from individuals to groups seems to be someone not being dan l’kaf z’chus 🙂
29, it was a good diyuk. How many non chareidim do you know who care about looking frum?
Popa I think you misread. It was about individuals who worry about looks of themselves and others without regard to behavior. You think that describes chareidim?
No, I don’t think it describes chareidim. I think the OP thinks that, and that’s what he was trying to imply.
Well if you do think that as opposed to knowing that than you have ahalachik obligation to assume he doesn’t.
Well if you do think that as opposed to knowing that than you have ahalachik obligation to assume he doesn’t.
I appreciate your chumros in dan l’kaf zchus. But maybe you should consider being machmir on bein odom l’chaveiro and consider the people this thread was intended to malign.
Don’t be ridiculous. We all know exactly the purpose of this thread. We weren’t born yesterday, and we didn’t meet the OP today.
And for that matter, we didn’t meet you today either, and your response is also entirely predictable.
As is mine, to be fair.
Care to give examples?
b1g b0y: That is incorrect. There are plenty of sources on this and why Mesirah won’t apply in America at this point in history. See, for example, Tzitz Eliezer 18:1 (maybe 18:2 or 3)
We all know exactly the purpose of this thread. We weren’t born yesterday
I really didn’t. I guess I’m much younger than I look.
and your response is also entirely predictable.
Thank you, thank you. If defending people is entirely predictable from me then all I can say is Baruch Hashem.
Not at all Popa. I was referring to the tendency of certain posters to find or invent the biggest chumrot possible.
That was pretty much what I had assumed. With an emphasis on certain.
Don’t know who is right, just offering a second viewpoint.
Sam: If you saw someone shecht an animal in a democracy like Switzerland that outlawed shechita, you will testify in court against the shochet so they can throw him in prison?
Igros Moshe CM 1:8:
I received your letter with regard to an evil doer who came into a kosher factory and forged the kosher symbol, placed it on non-kosher items, which he sold to Jews as kosher. The question is can one inform on him to the secular authorities who will judge him severely with either a fine or prison, or must the rabbis judge him according to Jewish law? In my opinion, even though his sin is great, and he shows no repentance, nonetheless so long as we cannot say that the Jewish judges cannot judge him, one may not turn the matter over to the secular authorities… In addition, since it is certain that the secular authorities will adjudicate the matter through incarceration or a fine inconsistent with Jewish law, one must be fearful of the prohibition of informing, as it is prohibited to inform on a Jew to the secular authorities, whether through danger to his body or his money, even if he be a sinner.
Igros Moshe, OC 5:9 (11):
It is prohibited for us to inform on a person for a matter where the punishment is unfounded in Jewish law. In Jewish law, theft is resolved through restitution as measured by an expert, and secular law punishes through imprisonment, unfounded in Jewish law.
Chelkas Yaakov, CM 5 (or 3:96 in some editions):
One who looks in Shulchan Aruch and other decisors will see explicitly that there is no difference, and even when one who uses secular courts to reclaim his own, the matter is in dispute in Choshen Mishpat 388:5 and the Shach views such a person as an informer. A similar view is taken Brachos 58a concerning… [a person who slandered government] and such a person became a pursuer [to destroy the government] and he was killed. Even though it is certain that if a gentile had done the same thing and called the government bitter they would have punished him, still Rav Shelai considered him an informer (moser) and killed him; while it is true that this case is different in that Rav Shelai was certain that they would be punished for mocking the government. …. Even the money of a Jew, once it falls into the hands of a gentile, they show no mercy on it, as is quoted in Shulchan Aruch and other decisors, and as a matter of normative halacha this matter does not change … That which we have seen in recent times [the Holocaust] provides proof to this.
Avi K,
There are a number of threads which lead me to believe that people say “Mirror, mirror on the wall.
So you get your information about Jews from the CR? Not a good idea…
Of course, the men do not look at it but address it as Mrs. Mirror with their eyes on the ground
Making fun of people is not nice, especially in a thread purportedly advocating for chumros in bein adam l’chaveiro.
What about chumrot regarding honesty in monetary matters?
1. I do not permit my children to bring their toys into a store if the store may carry similar merchandise.
2. If I don’t get a carry-out bag from the store, I hold the receipt in my hand when I walk out.
3. I try to be as careful as possible regarding complementary items; e.g., taking only the amount of ketchup packets I need for the food I just bought, offering to pay a quarter if I ask for an empty disposable cup, etc.
How about you?
Joseph
So if you saw someone inapproprately touching someone you would not report them to the authorities if your ‘Rav” said not to
1. I do not permit my children to bring their toys into a store if the store may carry similar merchandise.
2. If I don’t get a carry-out bag from the store, I hold the receipt in my hand when I walk out.
3. I try to be as careful as possible regarding complementary items; e.g., taking only the amount of ketchup packets I need for the food I just bought, offering to pay a quarter if I ask for an empty disposable cup, etc.
People are not concerned about such minor matters. They are refering to such practices are “Paying off the books” or not charging sales tax for example
ZD: Absolutely, correct. If my Rav said not to, I would not. I would do what my Rav said to do.
People are not concerned about such minor matters. They are refering to such practices are “Paying off the books” or not charging sales tax for example
+1
Or myriad other financial crookednesses.
Joseph: There are certainly many who hold Mesirah does exist. Your proving that doesn’t prove anything. There is also ample support for those who say it doesn’t.
“1. I do not permit my children to bring their toys into a store if the store may carry similar merchandise.
2. If I don’t get a carry-out bag from the store, I hold the receipt in my hand when I walk out.
3. I try to be as careful as possible regarding complementary items; e.g., taking only the amount of ketchup packets I need for the food I just bought, offering to pay a quarter if I ask for an empty disposable cup, etc.
How about you? “
The above are about the appearance of honesty, which is also important.
Joseph said, ” Absolutely, correct. If my Rav said not to, I would not. I would do what my Rav said to do. “
At what point do you draw a line?
Is there any time that you call the cops?
” Absolutely, correct. If my Rav said not to, I would not. I would do what my Rav said to do. ”
What if it was your kid? Would you still listen to your “Rav”
Popa, you seem to be playing both sides of the fence?
MDG: If the violence is in progress. If it is after the fact and a shaila can be asked then we follow the psak (which may be to report it.)
Sam: You incorrectly told Big Boy he is incorrect, thus I demonstrated that Rav Moshe and others hold what BB said is correct.
Joseph
After the fact, the abuse already happend and now you want to go to the police about the abuser and your rav paskens . Its Moser. and not to report. Do you listen to your rav or do you go anyway?
Popa, you seem to be playing both sides of the fence?
Not at all. I definitely oppose crooked practices and support chumros in gezel.
I also oppose kulos in bein odom l’chaveiro such as starting this thread.
zahavasdad,
People are not concerned about such minor matters. They are refering to such practices are “Paying off the books” or not charging sales tax for example
1. Who are the “people” that you refer to?
2. I consider your examples to be basic halacha. The OP was asking about chumros.
Gavra’s post was an example of a chumra in bein adam l’chaveiro.
He was going to write something which was probably benign, but deleted it because there was a slight chance that someone would take offense, so he was machmir.
Avram
Unfortunalty people paying off the books is well known in certain areas. Maybe not people you know or where you live, but it is a problem in NYC area. Everyone knows about it. Its no secret. I even used to work for people who used to pay partially off the books so its not even hearsay, I saw it with my own eyes
MDG,
The above are about the appearance of honesty
Not exclusively. Yes I want to avoid potential maris ayin, but it’s also about self-training and increasing my sensitivity, which should be what chumros are about.
ZD: Which part of my answer did you not understand?
Say Hashem tells you to slit your son’s throat, do you do so?
If I got a “Psak” not to go to the authorities when my kid was abused. Id get another Rav
Some people will get another Rav if his Rav tells him he cannot have a TV.
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