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Just wondering how anyone justifies teaching girls gemorah when the gemorah in sotah says:רַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר אוֹמֵר: כׇּל הַמְלַמֵּד בִּתּוֹ תּוֹרָה — (כְּאִילּוּ) לוֹמְּדָהּ תִּפְלוּת.- Rebbi Eliezer says: Anyone who teaches his daughter Torah is teaching her promiscuity [tiflus], the shulchan oruch says: חז”ל שלא ילמד אדם את בתו תורה מפני שרוב הנשים אין דעתן מכוונת להתלמד ומוציאות דברי תורה לדברי הבאי לפי עניות דעתן – our rabbis have commanded that one should not teach his daughter Torah, because the majority of women are not intellectual prepared to be taught, and remove words of Torah to words of emptiness due to their intellectual limitations. and others inculding the Taz, Maharil, Rambam ect,. all speak out about it.
aheimisherenglisher: You’re 100% correct.
Only the Modern “Orthodox” and the non-Orthodox violate this Halacha.
The Rebbe Shlita deliberately didn’t have haskamos like many other great Rebbes, like the Baal HaTanya, Reb Tzaddok HaKohen, Reb Nachman of Breslov ect.
The same way that smartphones aren’t discussed by the mechaber ect. the state isn’t either, it wasn’t a problem then as zionism was only established in the late 1800’s
It isn’t baseless if you want to know the Rebbe’s arguments learn the sefer
It may be a very weighty subject, that’s why there are seforim on it
What intimidation tactics, don’t throw accusations at talmidei chachomim without proof
It is a halachik sefer because that is what it was written as
The Brisker Rov, The Chofetz Chaim ect. agreed with this psak
It’s ok to have a halachik agreement between torah giants, that doesn’t meen a psak is wrong
If the Rebbe wrote it as a halachah sefer you can’t just decide it’s not
Don’t insult a shita you have no idea aboutmaybe not a direct answer, but R Steinsaltz in a small book that summarizes Talmud for newbies mentions this inter alia, noting that R Eliezer is known for extreme views. Rabbis had no problem with Beruriah learning and the fact that she learned 300 halochot from 300 teachers in one day, or something like that, is brought approvingly. That means that all 300 teachers did not mind her in the class. You decide whether there was a whole class of ladies, or she was in a co-ed class, or she was given class one-on-one.
As to other writings, they bring a clear rationale which is not so true today. Clearly, there are women in our times that are intellectually prepared. The rationale to teach them – they might be learning at advanced levels sciences and non-Jewish humanities. They can, and need to, understand Judaism at the same level to be able to answer people they interact with, and for their own sake.
Chofetz Chaim wanted women to know how to read – he asks those who know to read halochos of niddah from his letter to those who are not… He just did not know how to. When Mrs Schenirer started BY, she asked Yakkish ladies with PhDs to help her with the curriculum and this got approved. R Soloveitchik in 1950s suggested to have classes co-ed, otherwise classes for girls will be of inferior quality… He later led the first gemora class at Stern College, so maybe things changed.
Now, in my mind, I have 2 questions:
1) teach those who want to/capable or everyone (within the community that does it). I am skeptical whether an average girl is interested, and it is silly to force them. Many BY classes are silly as is, making girls memorize a lot of material in order to keep them off the streets. Maybe this is what R Eliezer warned about.2) what is “gemora”. The abstract meaning is – reasoning behind mitzvos (v. mishna that is just the laws, to include S’A etc). This is what these ladies need. But when gemora learning is understood in the narrow sense of struggling through dafim, figuring out every machlokes between Abaye and Rava – I don’t think they need it. In my own family, I have no problem teaching BY girls “gemora” in terms of explaining some great principles behind halocha, but they do not have interest in following the daf, figuring out – correctly – that it can create problems in shidduchim.
we violate many directives of the gemara, such as ben chamesh lmikra, ben 18 lchuppah. We translate the ideas of chazal into whats appropriate for today. Today, many feel, women are learning law and managing big business. They are not in the kitchen anymore. They ae anyhow learning cunning and tiflus. May as well learn gemara
So a woman is smart enough to be a doctor or a lawyer or judge (Judge Rachel Freier) but cant understand a chakira? Do you believe she does not posses the intellectual capacity to process a diyuk in the Rishonim? 300 years ago no one would approve of Beis Yaakov, yet some how when the time called for it, we reinterpreted tiflus to make it OK. Was the Mechaber commenting on women’s biological intellectual inferiority or was he talking about the illiterate women of his time. Times change and metzios changes. The question is was that a halachik statement that is fixed forever or was it an observation for his times and now clearly the metzios is different. Are you open to considering other approaches or are you trolling for action?
It isn’t just in the Gemorah. It is also cited l’halacha in both the Rambam and Shulchan Aruch.
The Rambam and Shulchan Aruch aren’t as clear as you make them out to be. Yes, you’re right that they quote the shitah of R’ Eliezer and explain that Chazal said a person shouldn’t teach his daughter for the reasons that you stated. But you missed the opening line of that halacha in the Rambam and Shulchan Aruch! That a woman receives reward for learning Torah! Just not as much as a man since a man is commanded and they are not.
Why would a woman receive reward for doing something prohibited?!? I think it’s clear, that it’s not as black and white as you presented it. There is no reason, in a halachic work, for the Rambam and Shulchan Aruch to open up with them receiving reward.
In my humble opinion, the prohibition is not on women. They are allowed to learn. The prohibition is on teaching, not learning. Which I understand to mean, you cannot impose learning on all women and girls. It can’t be a mandatory learning in the way it is for boys. But if you have someone who genuinely wants to expand her Torah knowledge, and she is smart enough to do so… Then she indeed receives reward for doing so.
Sounds like they are afraid of being found out about something. What are they hiding. At the same time. Torah is a book of morals. Everyone should be tought how to live with morals. If you don’t have a good grasp of Torah/morality. (Ye your ganna say it has nothing to do with that shows how far from reality you are) Then we can’t live in reality properly as reality requires morality, and proper understanding of right and wrong in order to choose correctly in this very often confusing world.
Goes to show halacha isn’t realistic. End of story lol. Does it fit. It doesn’t fit. Everyone needs to live in reality. Wake up
The rebbe said this the rebbe said that what about your opinion you also have a brain and also have a life and your _own_ circumstances. What are _you_ going to decide
Sara Schenirer learned Gemara daily.
There was a thread about this a while back, where a lot of opinions on both sides were posted. Joseph, as usual, is full of garbage, and is ignoring anything that doesn’t match his own twisted views.It reminds one of the old joke:
a talmid chacham ask his rebbe if he can smoke during learning Torah. “Of course not!”
He returns the next day and asks “is it OK for me to learn Torah while I’m smoking?” “Of course!”
I don’t know enough to comment about the original question but it seems like the alternative is to tell women they should spend their time studying secular subjects even if they desire to study what is holy. That doesn’t make sense to me.Maskilic/”Modern Orthodox” comparisons of gemara to the founding of Bais Yaakovs, and the questions from Bruriah, women being no longer only in the kitchen, etc. are all silly, despite their “Rav”/Professor of Talmud violating halacha in teaching a talmud class to women at “Yeshiva” University, something never done before.
First, no source permits giving a public talmud lecture to women as the modern day maskilim’s leader did. Ask your LOR under what specific conditions it would be permitted and perhaps even beneficial to teach gemara on an individual (not group) basis to, say, your daughter or your wife.
There was nothing halachically novel about the founding of Bais Yaakovs, which is why the rabbis approved of Ms. Schenirer’s idea. As the Chofetz Chaim wrote, until that point, girls received their mesorah at home, and did not need formal schooling as provided by BYs. Once the haskalah (forerunner of today’s “Modern Orthodox”) and Zionism and other -isms began wreaking havoc on Jewish homes, preventing the women from receiving and/or conveying the mesorah mother to daughter, there arose the need for an alternative way of conveying that mesorah, which is what Bais Yaakovs provided. (Of course, today, given the schooling structure in Western countries, Bais Yaakovs also serve the purpose of enabling Jewish girls to get a Torah education in a Torah environment rather than a secular education in a secular environment.)
Women can be great lawyers and leaders, but Torah is not an academic body of knowledge – Torah is chachmas Elokis – so that’s all irrelevant.
Bruriah was obviously exceptional, even among daughters of tannaim. We cannot fathom the greatness of our ancestors in those days, but even she, herself, proved Chazal’s wisdom, so it is foolish to go against Chazal based on the exceptional learning of Bruriah. However, as mentioned, for an individual woman to learn could be permitted, depending on the circumstances. Ask a non-Maskilic LOR for specifics.
Bayit Beitar is right. Moreover, there are many chashuva rebbetzins who are (and were) involved in Gemora learning (e.g., Rebbetzin Bruria David, BJJ; Rebbetzin Ausband, Yavneh Seminary; Rebbetzin Gettinger, Young Israel of the UWS) and hundreds of women learning Daf Yomi in person and/or online. This ship has LONG sailed. For those who can look beyond their misogyny, there are MANY gedolim who have allowed women to learn Gemora at the highest levels, and opposing de’os do not invalidate these rulings. Indeed, when the idea for Artscroll was first launched, your question was raised before a Gadol on the Moetzes. Though I cannot recall who, I do remember that he was not bothered by the issue. With so much happening right now for Yidden in EY and around the world, why stir up enmity with this issue? If it bothers you so much, forbid ypur wife and daughter(s)(to the extent you can); do not impose your beliefs as halakhah le-ma’aseh on the klal.
Bayit beitar,
No one said it’s because women aren’t smart, the reason the Gemara says they (you?) shouldn’t learn Gemara is because women put their emotions into whatever they learn, just ask any seminary girl about a rule in the Gemara and she would say “that’s not fair”
Look at the story with bruriah
katan > As the Chofetz Chaim wrote, until that point, girls received their mesorah at home, and did not need formal schooling as provided by BYs.
where did he write this and what was the context? In 1920s, he clearly lamented that so many Jewish women in Poland do not know how to read and asks those who do to read halochos of niddah to them from his letter. No, he did not propose teaching them how to read. He did not think it is possible.
coffee > Look at the story with bruriah
yes, she taught her husband to pray properly in regards to some gangsters, and he turned around and lured her into a trap. So, maybe men should not be learning Gemora because of what R Meir did? And as I mentioned ^, hundreds of teachers had no problem w/ teaching her and there is noone on record objecting. It is 300 tannaim against one coffee.
simcha > Which I understand to mean, you cannot impose learning on all women and girls. It can’t be a mandatory learning in the way it is for boys. But if you have someone who genuinely wants to expand her Torah knowledge, and she is smart enough to do so…
This sounds very reasonable.
katan> Bruriah was obviously exceptional, even among daughters of tannaim.
There is a suggestion in Sanhedrin that a wife of a Talmid Chacham does not require a warning for a capital punishment (adultery?) because she knows the halokha. Presumably, her husband taught her or he married a daughter of T’Ch who taught her. So, it is not just Beruriah, it is a presumption about any wife of T’Ch.
keith > He returns the next day and asks “is it OK for me to learn Torah while I’m smoking?” “Of course!”
I heard an actual story about, I think, R Yaakov Kamenetsky. The student brought tea to the Rav while they were learning. The rav did not finish the tea by the time they finished learning. The student asked why the Rav is not drinking. Rav explained that they stopped learning. Student suggested to learn another blatt. Rav explained: I drink to learn. I do not learn to drink.
I recall that the issue is teaching one’s own daughter Gemara – not a girl or woman learning Gemara. In other words, my daughter can not be taught Gemara by her father – but if she chooses to pull out a Gemara and learn Dad Tomi with Rav Eli Stefansky’s on-line Dad Tomi Shiur, there’s no issue.
an Israeli Yid
Woman have wisdom men logic. A man needs a woman’s wisdom to guide him properly. woman know and understand. Men can miss what empathy understands. If she says it’s unfair it prob is. Logic without wisdom is knowledge. Knowledge disconnected from realistic thinking can disconnect a person from reality. The only “tree” G-d said to not eat from. Living outside reality and not having any wisdom disconnects your soul from gan Eden, which is actually the rivers in your brain. Your brain is the shape of a tree.
“yes, she taught her husband to pray properly in regards to some gangsters, and he turned around and lured her into a trap. So, maybe men should not be learning Gemora because of what R Meir did? And as I mentioned ^, hundreds of teachers had no problem w/ teaching her and there is noone on record objecting. It is 300 tannaim against one coffee.“
I don’t know people’s gender on this site but it seems AAQ is taking it very personally
And it’s interesting that you’re basing your view on “a little book by Steinsaltz, is there a mekor for that (I’ll admit, I haven’t learned all of shas yet) it just sounds very interesting because 1 on 1 is yichud (even a beis yaakov class, unless maybe there was someone else with him) and coed it really didn’t sound like it was prevalent except for bruriah so if it was accepted R Meir wouldn’t have fought it with his wife
And re the גנבים you don’t need Gemara for her svara you need emotions which proves my point
Aaq,
I suggest you look at the Rambam (הלכות ת״ת א:י״ג)
Unless you want to answer that He’s a דעת יחיד over steinsaltz’s 300 teachers
Rashi taught his daughters, I think he knew what he was doing.
This is a purely halachic question, not a hashkafic one. The perisha in יו״ד סי׳ רמ״ו says: מפני שרוב נשים אין דעתם מכוונת כו’ אבל אם למדה לעצמה אנו רואות שיצאו מהרוב ולכך כתב לעיל שיש לה שכר ור”ל אם למדה התורה על מכונה שאינה מוציאה לדברי הבאי אבל האב אינו רשאי ללמדה דדילמא תוציא דבריה לדברי הבאי כי הוא אינו יודע מה שבלבה וק”ל.
Loose translation: “Because most women are not etc, But if she learns herself, we see that she is not part of the majority. This is the reasons why [the tur in the name of the rambam] says that she still is rewarded [if she learns], it means to say that if she learns torah properly and isn’t מוציא the divrei torah into דברי הבא [then she gets schar for her learning]. But the Father isn’t allowed to teach her because pehaps she will be מוציא her [divrei torah] to דברי הבאי, because he doesn’t know what’s in her heart [likely meaning: whether she is motivated and capable of taking the right things out of her studies].This perisha would answer any questions about Bruriah, etc. Does anyone argue on the perisha about this? Perhaps. I don’t know.
R’ Moshe has a teshuva about this, where he says Bais Yaakov’s should not have mishnayos as part of their curriculum, although that was more of a question of introducing it as a mandatory part of the women’s curriculum, which seemingly even the perisha would be against. But this is a purely halachic question.none 2.0 is clearly not frum and all those women who are offended by the torahs “misogyny” get over it. yes in your definition of sexism the torah is misogynistic, see daatos nashim kalos hein etc. it is also racist (cham was cursed to have dark skin and his son canaan to be a slave forever, cham inhabited africa) as well as extremely homo and transphobic. women have a different role than men just as kohanim have different roles as yisraelim, trying to say the metzius and halacha changed without gadol-level support is like trying to say the torah doesnt mean for us to keep kashrus out of the home anymore
AAQ: What you said about Rav Meir is pure apikorsus, though I will refrain from calling you an apilorus, since I’m being dan lkaf zchus that you’re simply ignorant about it. But c”v to utter that Rav Meir is to be blamed. Bruria failed because she was a woman who engaged in learning that a woman is not permitted to learn. Her suicide serves as an example and reminder of what can happen to a woman who learns what she is not permitted to.
Wow mods censored me great. Having a difference of belief and opinion is not wrong we are all free people when we see and hear others opinions we can form our own better. No not everyone is wrong but dissenting opinions create a deeper understanding of what not to do. Your not doing anyone a favor by censuring me actually keeping them from hearing the inevitable. Goes to show your actually practicing more cult like behavior then an actual free religion. No
A better wor, clique
i was taught that the Gemara says a FATHER should not teach his daughter Gemara and some explain she might think she understands if taught by her father
it doesnt say she cannot learn Gemara
my mother AH had the Zechus to be one of the first talmidos of Reb. Vichna Kaplan in Williamsburg
there was a lack of teachers at the time so they hired older Mirrer boys who survived the war and went through Shanchai who needed the income to teach the girls
My Mother always remembered the Gemara they taught her and even knew some Mishnayos Beal Peh with the proper tune!
שנים אוחזים בטלית, המפקיד אצל חברו בהמה או כלים etc.Is there a reason why my post wasn’t approved
anIsraeliYid > I recall that the issue is teaching one’s own daughter Gemara
How do you then explain gemora’s suggestion that the wife of T’Ch possibly does not require hatraah? And a suggestion to marry a daughter of T’Ch then if something happens with the husband, she will be able to teach Torah to kids?
My personal understanding is that “teaching gemora” does not mean learning tosfos, but can be “merely” learn reasons and derivations of haochos regarding mitzvos girls encounter, agadot related to middos and anything that will help them understand their husbands … when my daughters say that they would not be comfortable learning gemorah, I explain to them that it is too late – I already taught it to them. Maybe you will be more comfortable with this definition.
why wasnt my comment posted
Found my comment
Coffee, I brought Steinsaltz because it is an interesting observation that fits other positions of the Tanna on Torah learning and social issues in general. At the same time, it is a one liner in a popular book, not a scholarly discussion.
I am not sure what is your question on yihud. I presume she was sitting in a regular class, probably outdoors the way large classes were taught at the time. Unclear whether she was an only lady. there or there were other ladies and she is singled out for her exceptional abilities. I listed other options so that you could choose one.
Yeshivaman, thanks for bringing this prisha. This questions my teaching approach, but I think I have a defense. First, I am really doing it on behalf of my wife who has no patience to deal with these snobby girls and she hired me to teach them. She pays me well with gefilte fish and even brisket when she likes my teaching. So it is women guided teaching.
2nd, I do appreciate the idea that they may not be always taking things the right way and sometimes amazon shopping is a higher priority as it is mefurash in the gemora. So, I teach only what I think is going the right way. I know people who either send girls to schools or force feed masechtot themselves, and I am worrying about that.
Blaming r Meir or not is catch 22 here, as kavod eshet havero is like his own even when she is not learned, so better not to blame anyone here.
@ Chachmas Nashim and @ Yeshivaman613
Excellent posts. I would also add that R’ Itzel’s daughter, the Natziv’s wife also learned Gemara (including Yerushalmi).
@ Coffee Addict
The Prisha, R’ Itzel also knew the Rambam and Sh”A.
@ AAQ
I enjoy reading your thought-out and well articulated posts. You may already know this but I think it’s important to reiterate that what R’ Shteinzeltz’s wrote about the Tana R’ Eliezer where strongly condemned. For good reason.
btw, yoreh dea 246 referred above also brings definition of what is “Talmud” – understanding and developing concepts (davar mitoch davar), and then Remah adds that Bavli combines written/oral/talmud together. So, it is obvious from this that learning “Talmud” does not have to be literally learning blatt of the gemorah.
Note that there are many other dinim in YD 245-246 on which we are not so strict our days – teaching whole Tanach, not taking pay for teaching oral Torah, dismissing teachers when better ones are avilable, throwing out inappropriate students until they straighten up, “Anyone who resolves in his heart to engage in Torah and not to do work and to be supported by charity, this person profanes the Name and disgraces the Torah, for it is forbidden to benefit from the words of Torah. Any Torah that is not accompanied by work leads to sin and in the end he will steal from people” – not bringing these to distract, just saying that things evolved and each isue needs to be addressed according to their times.
I first took Sh’A and posters ^ to mean that davka fathers should not be teaching daughters – let her learn herself or go to Beruria or Stern, but form reviewing underlying texts, it seems that this is simply referring to the standard path: there were no schools for girls and there were no texts of Torah shebealpe, outside of personal notes by Talmidei Chachomim, so it is either father or mother or grandparents or give her father’s notes to read.
Non-political, no I am not aware of this controversy. Did he discuss this in some other writings, because my source is a one line and not a discussion of sugya. I had a zechut to learn a sugya of tanur shel ahnai with the rav, and I don’t recall him treating r Eliezer in a biased way, although now I am thinking this sugya illustrates r Eliezer viewpoint.
Now if we go back to teaching girls shtus, there is more color to that: first whole sugya in Sotah is about questionable ladies so discussion of shtus is inevitable. This is not about Rashi’s daughters. Also Ben Azzai supports teaching girls, as if he is a big unmarried expert. On the other hand, r Yehoshua seems to agree with r Eliezer but adds other groups like chasid shoteh, so there are men with issues.
Ard. Everyone knows that racism is wrong. But cham being cursed has nothing to do with racism. Cham did something wrong and therefore his children got cursed. Who’s talking about mysogany everyone knows men are different then woman. Except for woman. But doesn’t mean that a man is capable of thinking clearly. Men are logical woman are intuative. You need both for wisdom. A man can do great evil without realizing it. You need both to create balance. Trust me because you don’t let woman who are very discerning read the Torah you are not held accountable for your views and that’s very dangerous. A woman keeps a man’s logic in check
none:
You are opposed to the Halachos outlined in Chazal, in Shulchan Aruch, in Rambam and elsewhere regarding the prohibition of teaching women parts of the Torah?
none:
Rashi says that Cham’s punishment was that his offspring became שחורים. The Torah, Judaism and Halacha are explicitly anti-nochri and support Jewish supremacism. You should be proud of this fact.
Ujm……..Rashi can say whatever he wants. Halacha being explicitly anti nochri so halacha is racist and Jewish sirpemiscim is a little taken out of context. We are chosen to carry a torch not because we are “special” theres nothing special about us we bleed the same red blood as everyone else and I highly disagree with this way of thinking. G-D chose us to be a kli for His purposes not because we _are_ above everyone else. Please that’s averagence
none: Stop drinking the Western Kool-Aid. Yidden are G-d’s Chosen People because we are better. One of our worst is 100 times better than 100 of the Goyim’s best. We are far above them in every way.
@ UJM
You wrote: “Bruria failed because she was a woman who engaged in learning that a woman is not permitted to learn. Her suicide serves as an example and reminder of what can happen to a woman who learns what she is not permitted to”
Where did you get the above explanation? Not Chazal. Chazal said that Buria mocked a general statement made by the Chochomim that Nashim Da’atan Kalos. THAT was the catalyst for the subsequent tragic events. Where do you see that Buria was criticized for learning? Nowhere does it say that general principals don’t have exceptions. The opposite is, in fact, the case. Posters in this thread and others have brought ample precedent from Poskim and L’Maaseh that women (on a case by case basis) are permitted to learn Talmud.
Thats some chutzpa for you to criticize Buria for something Chazal didn’t.
Anyone who is a regular on the live (12:10 AM EDT) zoom broadcast of R’ Stefansky’s MDY knows there are women who participate nightly but keep their Zoom video box shut off to avoid revealing their gender. Some have screen-mames (not turned off) which clearly imply their gender.
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